[5.1.6] AI moving my units

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winterflaw
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[5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby winterflaw » 18 Dec 2018, 22:32

I've seen his happen a few times.

It's not common, not for me, but it does happen.

2 v 3 AI, on Trainz.

AI starts moving some of my units!

I built a 75mm from a forward HQ. Flag is next to the HQ - I checked. AI moves the gun for me!

I move it back to where it should be... AI takes over and starts moving it again!

I make a 42. AI moves it toward the enemy! I keep moving it back, AI keeps re-issuing it's move order.

I had a 75mm behind some sandbags, AI keeps REPOINTING it, always to the same direction.

I suspect the AI wanted to move it, but because it was stealthed, it couldn't move.

Toward the end, the guy I was playing with dropped.

What was then also wierd, and in fact completely novel for me, was that I STILL had command lag - even though I was now the only human player!

I've had the AI move my units before, but I've never had that happen before.

The New BK Champion
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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby The New BK Champion » 19 Dec 2018, 02:53

This is one of the signs you had a desync. It's when one of the players (or more than one) is playing his own game. Practicaly during the game there must a certain point that becomes different for different players. For example in my game my tiger is destroyed, but in my friend's game it's still alive. No idea why it happens, but your own units doing things on their own is one of the symptoms of desycn confirmed by experience.

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Jalis
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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby Jalis » 20 Dec 2018, 00:25

The New BK Champion wrote:This is one of the signs you had a desync.


It is not related to desynch. What is described usually happen when game start. Even player units move without orders, player have still control and can build buildings units mines, upgrade, and even give counter orders to wandering units.

I have suspicions on what cause the problem, but no evidences.

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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby The New BK Champion » 20 Dec 2018, 01:23

Jalis wrote:
The New BK Champion wrote:This is one of the signs you had a desync.


It is not related to desynch. What is described usually happen when game start. Even player units move without orders, player have still control and can build buildings units mines, upgrade, and even give counter orders to wandering units.

I have suspicions on what cause the problem, but no evidences.

It happens only in desync games.

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Jalis
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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby Jalis » 20 Dec 2018, 06:17

No doubt you are a specialist who have carefully study the subject.

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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby The New BK Champion » 20 Dec 2018, 13:21

No doubt you are able use English properly, without repeating simple errors for years of course, in order to express your highly valuable opinion here, which is what we expect and desire everyday. I am so impressed by the weight of your arguments and stunning logic. Please talk to me more.

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Panzerblitz1
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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 20 Dec 2018, 14:29

The desync, packet loss and lags do that kind of things, the datas is a bit "behind" when the pc is reading it, it create weird units movements, its happening on coh2 as well.
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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 20 Dec 2018, 14:37

The New BK Champion wrote:No doubt you are able use English properly, without repeating simple errors for years of course, in order to express your highly valuable opinion here, which is what we expect and desire everyday. I am so impressed by the weight of your arguments and stunning logic. Please talk to me more.

I agree, let's talk about it in Skype. Voice to voice with green light on your webcam. We should discuss it very closely.

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Jalis
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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby Jalis » 20 Dec 2018, 15:19

The New BK Champion wrote: in order to express your highly valuable opinion here,


Fact my opinion is valuable about this subject is simply due to my knowledge. Well, really my knowledge is not that extraordinary, your abyssal ignorance makes it appears like that :lol:

About what op described ; AI move player unit is not a desynch symptom. Accordying op overview, It seems to be different problem.

However like Panzerblitz wrote, lag and desynch are linked. He is however not completely accurate saying -- A bit behind --
It can be a lot Behind, so much that peoples can believe they dont play the same game. At the end desynch can be so important than it cause a disconnection. Here each player have own game, AI replace the other human player. It is what happened at the end of op game it seems, and it can obviously be due to desynch problem.

Nota ; it is possible when game lag at lot, player think AI move its own units. It happens when a player give orders to a units and it seems ignored, when really, it is delayed. Then player will give an other order and after a moment the units will obey the first one. Here player can believe AI move his units. But it is not what op described.

I make a 42. AI moves it toward the enemy! Here I understand OP built a new unit, and just released from the factory the stuh42 acted on its own. It is typical of a very rare problem that have nothing to do with desynch.

Desynch is the last coh problem I studied, because it was the last I had to solve, and also because I though it was something that cant be solved.

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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby The New BK Champion » 20 Dec 2018, 17:51

Oh shit you are a scientist then. Forgive my lack of respect for you, phd of CoHology. I am so glad you are here, mr. expert. Please tell us more about your studies!

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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby kwok » 20 Dec 2018, 19:37

It sounds exactly like a typical desync problem to me.

Best ways to prevent it is to make sure all computers playing the game have a strong processor and good internet connection.

The alternative to fixing desyncs is to water down the game to super simplicity but I don’t think that’s what people want.
Last edited by kwok on 20 Dec 2018, 21:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Warhawks97
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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby Warhawks97 » 20 Dec 2018, 19:45

Having just delays is different.

We are talking about stuff (at least i guess) at moments where you send lets say a unit to point c but half way it makes a turn to a whole different location it never got ordered to walk at. So its not just delay (which i also already had), its simply units that do stuff they never got orderd to.

Delays often expressed themselves differently. It first freezes and then all units running arround in "light speed".

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Panzer-Lehr-Division
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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 20 Dec 2018, 22:57

The New BK Champion wrote:Oh shit you are a scientist then. Forgive my lack of respect for you, phd of CoHology. I am so glad you are here, mr. expert. Please tell us more about your studies!

I wounder how many hours you sitting infront of your screen just to create such phrases, WW3 is going on poland vs well dunno where jalis is from.
SunZiom: but true is you`re only one man which i know who really know how play PE
CyberdyneModel101: you're unstoppable

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Jalis
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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby Jalis » 20 Dec 2018, 23:06

kwok wrote:
Best ways to prevent it is to make sure all computers playing the game have a strong processor and good internet connection.



It is true for coh. for bk it is more complicated due to its own flaws.

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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby kwok » 20 Dec 2018, 23:17

Not really that complicated or flawed. Bk has more features thus requires more calculating power and data transfers. Simple as that, as is most software. My coh2 mod breaks frequently because I took the calculations too far and the architecture of the game said “woah stop” so I get desync 100% of the games.

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Jalis
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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby Jalis » 21 Dec 2018, 00:26

I though like you for a moment, thinking problem was caused by high number of units on game because usually coop compstomper love huge maps with unlimited population. It had seems to me so obvious that I didn't look for an other explanation for a long time.

However it is forgetting, a lot of people say it, you were able to play in such condition with out trouble on poor core 2 duo, seven years ago on bk 4.0. It is not difficult to find a testimony like -- Where are my 4 hours long game on the Rhine with my friends vs 4 expert AI -- following that you have usually a nostalgic song about Xali bk good old time.

That dont means of course hordes of units on game dont increase risk of lag, desynch and eventually disconnection, so far.

And it is true, I remember long game on very maps with 4 AI vomiting hordes of units, and we played on poor core 2 duo with pitiful 512 video card and xp 32 limiting us to less than 4 Go ram. so...

Last it is possible to say instead ; steam is guilty.

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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby winterflaw » 21 Dec 2018, 01:02

The New BK Champion wrote:It happens only in desync games.


I could be wrong, but I think it happened to me just now in a skirmish game, which was me and 3 AI vs 4 AI - i.e. no other human players.

winterflaw
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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby winterflaw » 21 Dec 2018, 01:05

kwok wrote:It sounds exactly like a typical desync problem to me.


I don't know I'd say *typical*, because it's rare.

Desync happens all the time - in fact these days I only play four player maps, two humans vs two AI. I don't bother with anything larger because it will desync, and even the four player maps often desync. (This is with 150 pop cap).

But AI moving units? rare. Really rare, even. But it does happen.

Best ways to prevent it is to make sure all computers playing the game have a strong processor and good internet connection.


Mmm, I don't know that this is... I mean, COH came out when, ten years ago?

My PC now is like God's PC compared to what was around when COH came out.

If we think hardware and network are the issue, how on earth did COH manage to run at all when it came out?

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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby winterflaw » 21 Dec 2018, 01:10

kwok wrote:Not really that complicated or flawed. Bk has more features thus requires more calculating power and data transfers. Simple as that, as is most software. My coh2 mod breaks frequently because I took the calculations too far and the architecture of the game said “woah stop” so I get desync 100% of the games.


There is an alternative explanation, which is that both COH and COH2 have flaws, and those flaws are the problem.

COH used to be non-steam, and I don't think I ever had a desync then.

Then COH went steam, and then there was a patch and there was a bug, a big bug, and everyone was getting seriously desynced a lot of the time.

This was patched and the problem was reduced, for sure, but not eliminated, and that's where we are now, still.

I did a lot of work to get BK installed on a non-steam COH, with the idea of using the LAN network code over a VPN to see if that prevented desync - but just as I was ready to try it out, BK went steam-only.

BK is now steam, and obviously that's good for getting more players, but for some players at least, it's actually taken the game away from them, at the same time.

I can sometimes play a two player game, that's it.

However, I play vs AI, not humans.

I have no idea if desync turns up as a problem in the human-only games.

The New BK Champion
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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby The New BK Champion » 21 Dec 2018, 03:15

I just speak out of my experience: the way I notice the game desynced is when player's units do stuff without orders. Someone once said that desync also happens in AI games. Idk I dont play vs AI.
Panzer-Lehr-Division wrote:I wounder how many hours you sitting infront of your screen just to create such phrases, WW3 is going on poland vs well dunno where jalis is from.

It took me 30 seconds, because I don't have problems with English, unlike some others..

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Jalis
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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby Jalis » 21 Dec 2018, 07:23

The New BK Champion wrote:It took me 30 seconds, because I don't have problems with English, unlike some others..


It is not much longer with misspelling :lol:

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Panzerblitz1
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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 21 Dec 2018, 20:28

Do we also need to mod that? Or you will stop sending knives to each others for good?
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winterflaw
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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby winterflaw » 23 Dec 2018, 11:52

Just FYI I had a game last night, Rhine, 150 cap, seven AIs and me, and I had one specific and single incident of an uncontrollable unit.

I had an inf formation of two PE AG and an MG42. They came under fire and took some losses and I moved them away from the incoming fire and to the ambulance unit - but the 42, who was down to one man, was then fully uncontrollable.

He was moving toward enemy lines, and completely ignored all my instructions and the retreat instruction.

I suspect this is a different bug, that there is a bug - and this was it - which can make units move independently, and there is also a bug which is induced by desync which leads units to move independently.

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Jalis
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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby Jalis » 23 Dec 2018, 12:29

Like I wish no more to say something different than the others, I would say ; It is a typical symptom of solo desynch with yourself.

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Re: [5.1.6] AI moving my units

Postby kwok » 25 Dec 2018, 07:08

Lol well that’s definitely different. If there are no other players, then I’ve never seen such an issue, I never okay with AI. Post the replay? How long is the game?


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