17pd gun always penetrate KTs front armour

Do you have a bug to report? Do this right here.
Le Grand Conde
Posts: 14
Joined: 01 Apr 2017, 14:39

17pd gun always penetrate KTs front armour

Postby Le Grand Conde » 26 Apr 2017, 18:54

Hello everybody,
at first I thought that 17pd was just intended to be so powerful, but since I have been given these numbers:

14.75% front.pen. at max range, 59% rear
25% front. at very close range, 100% rear pen. at close range


I guess it must be bug.

Mod version 4.9.7
PvP through LAN
(several games on different maps (old BK mod tip mappack), 2vs2 as well as 1vs1, same with AI)
Windows 10

Bug:
17pd seems to always penetrate the front armour of Königstiger (even at max range and without ambush mod), (no matter the distance)

In three PvP and one PvsAI games, I have seen Königstigers (both versions I believe) taking in sum 8-10 standard 17pd hits from the front, from which 6 definitely could not be "lucky rear armour hits" (and the rest was almost certainly frontal as well). Every one of these hits had penetrated KTs armour (hovewer, health reduction was correct). Generally, I dont remember ever seeing field 17pds projectile bouncing off at all (I mean from Königstiger, Jagdtiger was just fine). I dont know if this is just field 17pd issue or Firefly as well.

User avatar
MarKr
Team Member
Posts: 1512
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 19:17
Location: Czech Republic

Re: 17pd gun always penetrate KTs front armour

Postby MarKr » 26 Apr 2017, 20:09

So you're talking about 17 pounder the AT gun dragged by soldiers (or emplacement?), not 17 pounders mounted on Firefly, Achilles or Comet, right?
Image

Le Grand Conde
Posts: 14
Joined: 01 Apr 2017, 14:39

Re: 17pd gun always penetrate KTs front armour

Postby Le Grand Conde » 27 Apr 2017, 18:33

MarKr wrote:So you're talking about 17 pounder the AT gun dragged by soldiers (or emplacement?), not 17 pounders mounted on Firefly, Achilles or Comet, right?


Yes, I am talking about soldiers dragged 17 pounder AT gun, not tank version.

P.S.: To be honest, I actually did not see Firefly/Achilles/Comet 17pd hitting Königstiger from the front (simply because CW players prefered to retreat with these tanks or they were destroyed by KT or its support before taking the shot-just because both sides tactics, not like it would be having troubles with aiming) during these games, so I am not really able to compare (even though purely guessing it seems to be more likely just dragged 17pd AT gun (as certain unit) issue.

User avatar
MarKr
Team Member
Posts: 1512
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 19:17
Location: Czech Republic

Re: 17pd gun always penetrate KTs front armour

Postby MarKr » 27 Apr 2017, 20:37

OK, so I made a quick test. Test conditions:
Kingtiger placed on the map, being "neutral" (neutral units have same stats as units belonging to one or the other faction but they don't move nor attack) then I built 17pounder gun and via "Attack move" order I let it fire frontally at max range at the KT - no AP active nor shooting from camo.
Results:
First 8 shots in a row deflected, 9th shot penetrated (took about 1/3 KTs HP), next 7 shots in a row deflected, 17th shot penetrated (again about 1/3 of KTs HP), next 6 shots deflected, 24th shot penetrated - KT destroyed.

This was a single test but 3 penetrations out of 24 shots doesn't seem to confirm your report that 17 pounder always penetrates frontal armor of KT. Also the 17pounder has a penetration bonus of x1.25 (+25%) when it fires from camo so at max range against KT that makes 18.4% which is still not much. With AP ammo (when activated when in camo) you get to 28.9% at max range which is significantly better but still far from 100% penetration you mention.

It seems that this is another example of the phenomenon that is quite frequent here - people don't remember the 10 times when their tank deflects incoming shot (because it is expected and thus a trivial event) but always seem to remember the 11th shot which the penetrates tank (because this is unexpected/surprising).
Have you ever heard the "theory" that when you put a butter on a bread and drop it, it will ALWAYS hit the ground with the buttered side? There have been tests that report that the bread actually hits the ground with the buttered side and unbuttered side in roughly 50:50 ratio but when the unbuttered side hits the ground, you can pick up the bread, put away the dirt quickly (because it doesn't stick to the "dry bread") and eat it so it means no extra work for you. But if the buttered side hits the ground you need to remove the butter (because dirt sticks to it and you cannot clean it from it) and butter the bread again - that means spending extra time and doing extra work. Because of the extra activity the brain remembers the event better and thus creates an illusion that the buttered side hits the ground every time. Here it is basically the same thing - when KT deflects shots, it is expected because it has strong armor and deflected shots create no more work for you, so you don't remember every deflected shot. But if KT gets penetrated or destroyed you need to build a new one which costs you resources and time so you remember better every time when something penetrates the unit and thus it creates an illusion that it always happens...we really need to give a name to this thing :D
Image

Le Grand Conde
Posts: 14
Joined: 01 Apr 2017, 14:39

Re: 17pd gun always penetrate KTs front armour

Postby Le Grand Conde » 27 Apr 2017, 21:34

Alright, I think that "Bread penetration theory" could be cool name :D

Well, if this how real test actually worked out.....then maybe there was a combination of selective memory and some seriously bad luck for Terror doctrine (I am still convinced that I have not seen any deflection!).....maybe our match series was haunted by the ghost of Kurt Knispel or something :) That might happend from time to time.

Anyway.....is there any way I could try this form of test myself? Is this possible by some console commands, or would I have to operate more through the way of corsix? I am just curious.

Btw. thanks for your time and after all sorry for the false alarm,

Le Grand Conde

User avatar
MarKr
Team Member
Posts: 1512
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 19:17
Location: Czech Republic

Re: 17pd gun always penetrate KTs front armour

Postby MarKr » 27 Apr 2017, 22:33

"bread penetration theory" it is then :D

Anyway you can do this sort of tests without Corsix but you will need the World Builder (map creator - part of the game). You will need to make a test map. In the world builder you can add units on the map that are neutral (or assign them to player). So when you add a neutral units they don't react to attacks don't move or in general don't do anything so they are good test subjects.
And then you can do these tests. But again making even very simple map is sort of hard and has potential for fuck ups and errors. I can send you my test map if you want and then you can tedt stuff...map is really basic so no "lol noob map comments" :D
Image

User avatar
Devilfish
Posts: 268
Joined: 26 Mar 2015, 18:51

Re: 17pd gun always penetrate KTs front armour

Postby Devilfish » 27 Apr 2017, 22:44

It's called Murphy's law.
"Only by admitting what we are can we get what we want"

Le Grand Conde
Posts: 14
Joined: 01 Apr 2017, 14:39

Re: 17pd gun always penetrate KTs front armour

Postby Le Grand Conde » 01 May 2017, 15:43

MarKr wrote:
Anyway you can do this sort of tests without Corsix but you will need the World Builder (map creator - part of the game). You will need to make a test map. In the world builder you can add units on the map that are neutral (or assign them to player). So when you add a neutral units they don't react to attacks don't move or in general don't do anything so they are good test subjects.
And then you can do these tests. But again making even very simple map is sort of hard and has potential for fuck ups and errors. I can send you my test map if you want and then you can tedt stuff...map is really basic so no "lol noob map comments" :D


Alright......I guess that already working test-map could be very helpful to me here. If you could send me the file/link, I would be thankful 8-)

Devilfish wrote:It's called Murphy's law.


Oh come on, don´t spoil the fun :D

User avatar
MarKr
Team Member
Posts: 1512
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 19:17
Location: Czech Republic

Re: 17pd gun always penetrate KTs front armour

Postby MarKr » 03 May 2017, 19:42

Le Grand Conde wrote:Alright......I guess that already working test-map could be very helpful to me here. If you could send me the file/link, I would be thankful 8-)
I'll send it to you once I can...but I have to warn you - it requires working in WorldBuilder which is a messed up, buggy and unfinished tool which often takes serious dose of your nerves just to launch it so I cannot guarantee your mental sanity....just saying :lol:
Image

User avatar
Leonida [525]
Posts: 137
Joined: 26 Jun 2016, 09:25

Re: 17pd gun always penetrate KTs front armour

Postby Leonida [525] » 03 May 2017, 19:46

Uh! i'm also interested in that map :D


Return to “Bugs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 2 guests