JgTiger rear armor

[sgtToni95]

In 9.6 update changelog it was said that JgTiger front armor received a consistent buff, making it almost impenetrable on the front, and in the notes at the end it was said to try penetrating it from the rear or top.
Noticed tho that JgTiger is practically impenetrable even from the rear, at least when i faced that, by tank guns: had a game some time ago, can't really remember if i posted replay talking about how good th is against pershings, where hellcat, jumbo 76 and pershing rushed JgTiger all together, hellcat was sacrificed but pershing and jumbo made it to the rear but bounced all shots (AP loaded) on it, this thing happened repeatedly and they NEVER penetrated it. Other 2 times i had to face jgtiger after the patch i really never saw that being penetrated on the back, not even with Achilles rush on its back and shot AP salvos.
Was talking with Leonida yesterday and he told me he and Tiger tested Jgtiger armor against all RE doctrine's at guns, leaving Jgtiger freezed with its rear facing 17 pounders of any kind, repeatedly shooting AP and they never penetrated. The only thing able to damage jgtiger was tulip rocked.
Now... I know it's the most expensive unit in the game, and it has to perform nicely against other tanks, but it had 80 mm of armor on sides and rear, which is way less than 17p/76mm/90mm penetration capabilities. Moreover having a tank which is almost completely impenetrable by other tanks, even if there are other ways to take it down, and expecially this kind of tank, being able to oneshot inf squads like grille with new HE system and to penetrate all allied tanks, doesn't really make sense from a logical and balancing point of view in my opinion. To rush jgtiger with tanks and bring at least 1 on its back you have to sacrifice 1-2 tanks to bate its shots, which is already expansive, and your opponent might likely have some other AT stuff to take down even that tank flanking. This really makes armor and RE doctrines chances to take down one of those really really low, and even if TH is their perfect counter i think this chances might be increased a little.
Is this the way JgTiger rear is meant to behave or is it some sort of bug? If it's not a bug could you please explain why it has been made like this?

[MarKr]

I will check it

[Krieger Blitzer]

Was talking with Leonida yesterday and he told me he and Tiger tested Jgtiger armor against all RE doctrine's at guns, leaving Jgtiger freezed with its rear facing 17 pounders of any kind, repeatedly shooting AP and they never penetrated. The only thing able to damage jgtiger was tulip rocked.
Now... I know it's the most expensive unit in the game

Spoiler: show

This NEVER happened... Me and Leonida never made any recent test together about JagdTiger!
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Just joking

This is true, and I totally agree that JagdTiger rear armor has to be - at least - slightly weaker against 17pdr and 90mm guns...
Or otherwise; the price eventually has to be increased even more then! From 2000 to about 2500 MP or something

But just a note aside;
I also noticed that Comets are kinda over-performing against Pak40 AT guns, as well as generally against all the Axis 75mm guns actually.. even from the rear it could still bounce, somehow.

Considering the Croc Churchill, I would like to notify that I have also seen 88s and even PanzerFaust bouncing off the rear! Which is rather funny, since the rear armor of the Croc is only 50mm of steel thickness! Or just barely exceeds this number.


King Tiger is the most expensive unit in game, not the JagdTiger btw Unfortunately though.

[MarKr]

OK the inefficiency of Allied guns vs rear armor of Jagdtiger is not intentional so it will change.

Commet effectivity is intentional - it is perhaps not very historically accurate but nobody will pay 650MP 100F and 6(?) CP to use a vehicle with Cromwell armor and mounted 17pounder...in all aspects would be preferable to use Achilles or Firefly which are cheaper and/or better armored. Changing Comet to perform more realistically would turn it obsolete in the mod, we don't want useless units in the game so we would need to make it somehow useful...it is too deep in command tree so it would need to change, it is too expensive for performance any lower than it has now so it would need to change too...

Croc Churchill vs "88mm"...there are 88mm flak 36 and kwk36 (Tiger 1) and 88mm pak43 (KT, Elephan, Nashorn etc.) I guess you talk about the "36" version...it is meant not to perform too well even against the weaker churchills and thus especially not well against Croc churchill. I can check the stats and correct it in case the stats from rear are extremely low but as said before - the "weaker" versions of 88mm are not meant to perform well against Croc Churchill.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Yes; I was exactly talking about the flak 88.. which is also the same cannon of the Tiger1, I totally understand that they aren't meant to be performing too well against the Croc from the front. Since that the Croc has 152mm frontal armor, same as Jumbo.
But the Tiger1 can easily penetrate the Jumbo from the rear, which is surprisingly not the case with the Croc the other way around! It feels like the rear and the front of the Croc are absolutely the same somehow, both seem to be 152mm armor...
Of which is pretty much the same issue of the JagdTiger btw.

Comet still has flank speed ability by default, HE rounds and also kinda cheap... I would say that there isn't anything that would justify how it should be able to bounce off Axis 75mm guns from the rear!!! Not even balance could ever justify that.. in my humble opinion.

[speeddemon02]

I dont mess with the jagdtiger ace much, but the comet on several of my games do get hit several times and blow up. I tend to not use jumbos or tiger I cause they get killed in one shot for me most of the time

[MarKr]

Yes; I was exactly talking about the flak 88.. which is also the same cannon of the Tiger1, I totally understand that they aren't meant to be performing too well against the Croc from the front. Since that the Croc has 152mm frontal armor, same as Jumbo.
But the Tiger1 can easily penetrate the Jumbo from the rear, which is surprisingly not the case with the Croc the other way around! It feels like the rear and the front of the Croc are absolutely the same somehow, both seem to be 152mm armor...
Of which is pretty much the same issue of the JagdTiger btw.

Comet still has flank speed ability by default, HE rounds and also kinda cheap... I would say that there isn't anything that would justify how it should be able to bounce off Axis 75mm guns from the rear!!! Not even balance could ever justify that.. in my humble opinion.

And here we get again in "reality vs gameplay" issue. Churchills have shitty guns but compared to other tanks they have strong armor in the front and sort of strong even from rear (it is weaker from rear but stronger compared to other tanks). It is because in the game Churchills are meant to attract attention so your other units can use their guns to deal with stuff that the Churchill cannot kill because of the crappy gun. Jumbo (both versions) are not meant to work this way so they are easier to penetate from back.

Well, Comets were not much better armored than Cromwells...afaik they had some extra armor on the turret but chassis was almost the same. So even its durability frontally in the current state is better than in real life. Problem is that Comets have same armor type as Churchills (the weaker types) so if we change something about Comet it is gonna mess up Churchills too and setting up a completely new armor type just for comet is extremely huge amount of work because we would need to modify every single weapon in the game (tanks, MGs, infantry weapons...everything) :/

[Krieger Blitzer]

I would say that slightly nerfing the JagdTiger rear against 90mm guns as well as 17pdr guns.. is fair enough!
But if you are ever going to also slightly adjust the penetration values of the flak 88s against the Croc from the rear.. then don't forget the long barreled 75mm guns as well... Talking about the cannons of the JPz.IV (L/70) and Panthers too.
Both cannon variants (the weaker 88s and longer 75mm guns) shouldn't suffer too much penetrating the Croc from the rear, specifically since that the Croc is very dangerous when it drives too close; because the flamethrower can still immediately burn and destroy engines.

Regarding the Comet... Hmm, well.. it's just fine then.

[Panzerblitz1]

For info.

[sgtToni95]

Didn't ever noticed the rear issue with croc and comet, tho i agree the rear bounces on croc by 88 might be decreased if what tiger said is true.. dunno how a flak 88 might get to shot its rear since it's so slow and usually controlled very carefully tho
Thanks for checking JgTiger guys
@Tiger: That spoiler hahaha, reading it from the phone made that scrolling down so tense lol

[Warhawks97]

The churchills have strong armor not only in front but also sides. The game has no side armor so side hits can be count as rear or front hits. So it makes sense to have better rear armor stats as jumbo to reflect this and for the reason mentioned by markr.

That the Jagdtiger is the most expensive unit in game isnt really true. Call ins cost only MP so far (a res you always get) and thus hard to compare with units that cost all res types. They are special in their own ways.


The comet had better armor as cromwell iirc. Idk how much more but ive read something of 102 on thickest parts. Thats i guess the reason it has churchill target table. And as markr said, making new TT´s would take a year. Coz that new tt would need to be created in every single weapon folder in corsix. It would be a hell job of typing.

Giving it cromwell armor type boosted with small unit modifier could work. But the unit would be fragile as shit then still.

[Jalis]

Idk how much more but ive read something of 102 on thickest parts. Thats i guess the reason it has churchill target table.

The main reason is simply comet is a late addition at BK. To gain time and/or because at this time TT source were already unclear, Comet inherited Churchill TT. Easy and perhaps a bit lasy. For the front armour and turret, it is almost acceptable, For side and rear it is arguable. Afaik for the same reason Comet gun inherited 17 pdr stat, even the comet gun is not the 17 pdr.

[Panzerblitz1]

( Comet )... the gun design evolved into the 77 mm HV. The gun now used the same calibre (76.2 mm) projectile as the 17-pounder, but the cartridge case was from the older QF 3 inch 20 cwt anti-aircraft gun loaded to higher pressures. The resulting round was completely different from 17-pounder ammunition. Overall the round was shorter, more compact and more easily stored and handled within the tank.

The 77 mm HV was effectively a shortened 17-pounder. This made it possible to mount the gun on a smaller turret ring. The gun was still capable against opponents, and firing APDS rounds, it was more accurate and consistent than APDS from the 17pdr and 6pdr, which were inaccurate over 700m and often ricocheted.

More info here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_(tank)

[MarKr]

The comet had better armor as cromwell iirc. Idk how much more but ive read something of 102 on thickest parts.

Well, that is the thing...from what I read the 102mm was on the turret while the hull kept the same armor strength as Cromwells (76mm front/ 43mm sides/ 25mm rear) so technically speaking it should have same armor stats as Cromwell but then again for such tank the current price is too high and it is too deep in command tree. So yeah:

Giving it cromwell armor type boosted with small unit modifier could work. But the unit would be fragile as shit then still.

so it would lead to:

it is perhaps not very historically accurate but nobody will pay 650MP 100F and 6(?) CP to use a vehicle with Cromwell armor and mounted 17pounder...in all aspects would be preferable to use Achilles or Firefly which are cheaper and/or better armored. Changing Comet to perform more realistically would turn it obsolete in the mod, we don't want useless units in the game so we would need to make it somehow useful...it is too deep in command tree so it would need to change, it is too expensive for performance any lower than it has now so it would need to change too...

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

Well i saw a jackson penetrate and even Killed a jagdtiger infront in close range

[Panzerblitz1]

Guys 76mm frontal armor plus 102mm frontal turret isn't "light" then on top of that you add the mighty 77mm HV gun...well it play in the panther G playground, the comet is a battle tank not a tank hunter, its perform very well in game and still cheaper than the Panther G no?

Firefly with his 50mm hull frontal armor and achilles 57mm frontal armor aren't better compare to the Comet.

The Comet is the most powerfull tank the brits can get if you count gun/armor capability.

Regarding the Jagdtiger rear, it might need some tweak, but remember, this thing got 80mm armor at 30 (Correction) degres angle... its not thin for a booty! The 90mm and the 17 pdr should pierce this thing from the rear at medium range though, at longe range, im not entirely sure when i read that the 17pdr ( long barrel) was ricocheting a lot at more than 700 meters range...

[xGrayWolf]

How to lose 1,5 hour of your life.

JagdTiger rear armor was not that impressive in the late war.
I just double checked it and in real life Jagdtiger had rear armor values of:
-80mm effective armor on the top rear side
-90 mm effective armor on bottom rear side (80mm with 28 * angle)

So when you look at it from the back 2/5 of the armor (top part) has 80mm armor and 3/5 (bottom part) of the armor has 90mm armor.
Let's say that realisticly tanks would still hit the bottom side with 90mm armor.

When it comes to what tanks could penetrate it in real life (I'm not only counting the armor value of 90mm, but rather 80mm with 28 * angle, which is better):

BRITS:
Comet: Up to 450 meters, with APDS rounds from over 2km range.
17pdr tanks and atgs: Up to around 550 meters.
75mm Shermans: From point blank range, they would penetrate the top part of rear armor, but bottom would stay unscratched, which means that in-game they should have small chance of penetration from the rear (point blank range).
57mm -> 6-pdrs: Normal shells would not pen it, but APHV shells would penetrate it from ~150 meters.
Anything below from british tank armanent would not penetrate it.

USA:
76s mm (Sherman, M10): Up to 450 meters with M62 capped shell, with AP rounds up to ~550 meters range.
Hellcat: Up to 450 meters with M62 capped shell, with AP rounds up to ~550 meters range, and from over 2km range with APCR (yes, hellcats could use APCR shells).
90mm (Jackson and Persh): Up to ~1300-1400 meters range, with APCR it's whatever, they could penetrate Tigers from any range.
75mm (Shermans, Chaffees): From point blank range, they would penetrate the top part of rear armor, but bottom would stay unscratched, which means that in-game they should have small chance of penetration from the rear (point blank range).
Anything below from the US tank armanent would not penetrate it.

It could also be said that, while US in-game handheld would not penetrate JagdTiger at all, Piat would penetrate it from the rear (from any range really, since it's a hollow charge). At least on paper, piat could penetrate Tiger tanks, but what we know from battle logs piat rarely did it. Since jagdtiger has weaker top part of the rear armor, and this is where piat would actually hit most of the time I think It should have ability to pen JagdTigers from the rear, ~20-30%, but would be realistic imo.

In conclusion, most allied tank destroyers should easily pen rear armor of Jagdtiger on medium range with standard shells or HVAP on medium-long depending on a tank.

While picture says, it's 60 *, it's meant that shell will hit with 30 * angle.

http://imgur.com/a/GdJFw

you have to know how angles work. When it hits bottom rear part of the JT, it hits at the angle of 30 * (28 * actually), not 60*-62*. Just a bit of education

[Panzerblitz1]

Graywolf please edit yoru first post instead of double posting, and yes you're of course right, the JT butt is 30 ° not 60, my mistake, and yes the 17 pdr and the 90mm will pen. the JT rear but comparable to the frontal Tiger armor, the 76mm will pen lightly the rear at close distance if they are loading APDS/APCR rounds only, but frontally forget about it, impossible that any allies tank shell will pen the JT.

This is an exemple of some test from an M36 TD 90mm M3 anti tank gun at 100 yrds on the Jagdtiger... its not necessary to comment the results...

[xGrayWolf]

Graywolf please edit yoru first post instead of double posting, and yes you're of course right, the JT butt is 30 ° not 60, my mistake, and yes the 17 pdr and the 90mm will pen. the JT rear , the 76mm will pen lightly the rear at close distance if they are loading APDS/APCR rounds only, but frontally forget about it, impossible that any allies tank shell will pen the JT.

Never said it would penetrate the front. Also, 500 on 76 meters range is not really close, I'd say it's medium at worse. In late war, most allied tanks with 76mm or more had ability to penetrate Tigers at 300-400 meters range with AP rounds (not HVAP).
At the end of 1944 Shermans received fair amount of HVAP shells. The projectile which would give Sherman (and most of the tank destroyers) a fair chance against Panther at moderate range could, and did, kill Tigers at over two kilometers. Both tanks could now kill each other at long range, except one tank was faster, more mobile, lighter, had a higher rate of fire, was more accurate, more likely to spot the enemy first due to proliferation of optics, had faster traverse, and had a stabilized gun.

It was, of course, true that HVAP was a very limited availability round. The typical M4 only carried a couple by the end of the war. On the other hand, Tigers (And most other cats) were very limited availability tanks. There wasn’t much to shoot the HVAP rounds at in the first place, so it rather balanced out.

[Leonida [525]]

yes the 17 pdr and the 90mm will pen. the JT rear , the 76mm will pen lightly the rear at close distance if they are loading APDS/APCR rounds only

Good I also think this is the best way to balance it

[JimQwilleran]

It could also be said that, while US in-game handheld would not penetrate JagdTiger at all, Piat would penetrate it from the rear (from any range really, since it's a hollow charge). At least on paper, piat could penetrate Tiger tanks, but what we know from battle logs piat rarely did it. Since jagdtiger has weaker top part of the rear armor, and this is where piat would actually hit most of the time I think It should have ability to pen JagdTigers from the rear, ~20-30%, but would be realistic imo.

Wrong. Bazooka also could penetrate it from sides, as both bazooka and piat projected hollow charges. Especially upgraded bazooka with better rockets could penetrate both the sides and the rear.
In terms of realism bazooka is very bad in this mod sadly.

[xGrayWolf]

Wrong. Bazooka also could penetrate it from sides, as both bazooka and piat projected hollow charges. Especially upgraded bazooka with better rockets could penetrate both the sides and the rear.

I thought bazooka had up to 80mms penetration. If I'm wrong then my bad.

EDIT:

You're right, late-war M9A1 with new rockets could penetrate up-to 120mm of armor.

[Panzerblitz1]

It could also be said that, while US in-game handheld would not penetrate JagdTiger at all, Piat would penetrate it from the rear (from any range really, since it's a hollow charge). At least on paper, piat could penetrate Tiger tanks, but what we know from battle logs piat rarely did it. Since jagdtiger has weaker top part of the rear armor, and this is where piat would actually hit most of the time I think It should have ability to pen JagdTigers from the rear, ~20-30%, but would be realistic imo.

Wrong. Bazooka also could penetrate it from sides, as both bazooka and piat projected hollow charges. Especially upgraded bazooka with better rockets could penetrate both the sides and the rear.

Theorically yes they could inflict great damage if well placed, for example hitting the ammo racks, but there is no real proof this happend regarding the JT, but it could be possible at that time, only P47 from the top and M36 guns from the sides were able to take down the JT, and ...and a Panzerfaust from friendly fire!

Spoiler: show

Main articles: 512th Heavy Panzerjäger Battalion and 653rd Heavy Panzerjäger Battalion from OttO Carius.
Only two heavy anti-tank battalions (schwere Panzerjäger-Abteilung), numbered 512 and 653, were equipped with Jagdtigers, with the first vehicles reaching the units in September 1944. About 20% were lost in combat; most were destroyed by their own crews when abandoned, chiefly due to mechanical breakdowns or lack of fuel in the final stages of the war.

The gun used two-part ammunition, which meant that the projectile and the cased propellant charge were loaded separately. Two loaders were tasked with this work.

Tiger ace Otto Carius commanded the second of three companies of Jagdtigers in Panzerjagerabteilung 512. His memoir Tigers in the Mud provides a rare combat history of the 10 Jagdtigers under his command. He states that Jagdtigers were not utilized to their full potential due to several factors, among them that Allied air supremacy made it difficult to move, and the massive gun needed to be re-calibrated from jarring after traveling off-road for even short distances.[6][Note 1] The vehicle was slow, and transmissions and differentials broke down easily because the whole 72 tonne vehicle needed to rotate to traverse the gun. The massive gun had to be locked down, otherwise mounting brackets would have worn too much for accurate firing. Also, a crew member had to exit the vehicle in combat and unlock the gun before firing.[7] However, he also recorded that a 128 mm projectile went through all the walls of a house and destroyed an American tank behind it.[8]

Insufficient crew training and poor morale was the biggest problem for Jagdtiger crews under Carius's command. At the Ruhr pocket, two Jagdtiger commanders failed to attack an American armored column about 1.5 km (1 mile) away in daylight for fear of attracting an air attack, even though the Jagdtigers were well camouflaged.[9] Both vehicles broke down while hurriedly withdrawing through fear of an air attack that did not come, and one was then destroyed by the crew. To prevent such a disaster at Siegen, Carius himself dug in on high ground. An approaching American armored column avoided the prepared ambush because German civilians warned them of it.[10] Later, one of his vehicles fell into a bomb crater at night and was disabled, and another was lost to a Panzerfaust attack by friendly Volkssturm troops who had never seen a Jagdtiger before.[8]

Near Unna, one Jagdtiger climbed a hill to attack five American tanks 600 meters away; two withdrew and the other three opened fire. The Jagdtiger took several hits, but American projectiles could not penetrate the 250 mm (9.8 in) frontal armor. However, the inexperienced German commander lost his nerve and turned around instead of backing down, exposed the thinner side armor, which was eventually penetrated and all six crew members were lost. Carius wrote that it was useless when crews were not trained or experienced enough to have the thick frontal armor facing the enemy at all times.[11]

When unable to escape the Ruhr pocket, Carius ordered the guns of the remaining Jagdtigers destroyed and surrendered to American forces.[12] The 10 Jagdtigers of 2nd Company, Panzerjagerabteilung 512 destroyed one American tank for one Jagdtiger lost to combat, one lost to friendly fire, and eight others lost to breakdown or destroyed by their crews to prevent capture.


Vehicle 305004, The Tank Museum, UK (2008)
On 17 January 1945, two Jagdtigers used by XIV Corps engaged a bunker line in support of infantry near Auenheim. On 18 January, they attacked four secure bunkers at 1,000 meters. The armored cupola of one bunker burned out after two shots. A Sherman attacking in a counter-thrust was set afire by explosive shells. The total combat included 46 explosive shells and 10 anti-tank shells, with no losses to the Jagdtigers.

During April 1945, s.Pz.Jäg.Abt.512 saw a great deal of action, especially on 9 April, where the 1st company engaged an Allied column of Sherman tanks and trucks from hull-down positions, and destroyed 11 tanks and over 30 unarmored or lightly armored targets, with some of the enemy tanks having been knocked out from a distance of more than 4,000 m. The combat unit only lost one Jagdtiger in this incident as Allied ground attack P-47 fighters appeared. During the next couple of days, the 1st company destroyed a further five Sherman tanks before having to surrender at Iserlohn. Meanwhile, the 2nd company still fought on, but with little result. On 15 April 1945, the unit surrendered at Schillerplatz in Iserlohn without fighting.[13]

[JimQwilleran]

Theorically yes they could inflict great damage if well placed, for example hitting the ammo racks, but there is no real proof this happend regarding the JT, actually there were false documentation about it for pure us propaganda, only P47 from the top and M36 guns from the sides were able to take down the JT, and ...a Panzerfaust from friendly fire!

I said it could, not it did.

Secondly, if there is no documentation about Super Pershing killing a Opel Blitz truck, does that mean it was impossible ? Strange logic. I just say that bazooka, well managed and especially with upgraded rockets, could take out ANY axis tank from side and rear. That's not represented in mod as I have seen bazookas bouncing rear armor of tigers and panthers countless of times. Just that.

[xGrayWolf]

Let's use the magical power of "Thinking and mathematics".

Thinking:
M9A1 has confirmed penetrations on Tiger tanks and Shermans with 76mm guns could also penetrate Tigers.

Mathematics:
Tiger frontal armor = 100 mm
Jagdtiger rear and side armor = 80-90mm

Question is "If you could penetrate side of the JT?"
Answer is "No, cause axis bias".

And now a proper answer, yes it would penetrate it. You know why it not often happened in war so it was not documented?
1. Most Jagdtigers stopped moving, cause of engine failures or lack of fuel. There was no need to fight them.
2. Jagdtigers were fighting from long-range facing the enemy. There was no way to penetrate frontal armor, so the only way to kill it was to manouver around it, which was nearly impossible, with all axis units supporting JT. At the point where allies circled around it, the battle was over or the JT stopped moving because of malfunction.

With this method, you can understand that, games let you do some theory crafting and mathematics are the only way to calculate stuff for rare tanks like SturmTiger or JagdTiger.

There are many tests with penetration of each gun. Like I said in my big post, a lot of stuff could penetrate JT from the rear or side.
Unless these tests are invalid, because german steel was blessed with Fuhrer's seed or something and it could withstand twice the amount of pounding.
Side note, axis armor in late-war was made with bad materials, cause axis lacked resources and fuel in the late war.


I think most of the axis fanboys think, that axis heavy tanks were literally unbeatable, while it's completly not true. Late-war allied tanks were able to penetrate most axis tanks from the front at medium-long range, exception being JagdTiger, Elefant, Panther and KingTiger. It's like they get their knowledge and wisdom from films like Fury: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8vFGQ0uJQc


Only thing you could say is the accuracy, because axis tank crews were more experienced.