Some questions on the game units

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Medic Truck
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Some questions on the game units

Postby Medic Truck » 15 Jul 2017, 13:24

Hi.

I have been playing this game since sometime and I love it. I read all the talks on the balance discussions and it got me curious on many points about US in general. So, if it is not too much to ask/dig up, I have these questions regarding the same.

1. At what ranges, a rifleman is good to use against Volkgranadiers/Panzergranadiers/Grenadiers with their default garands(?) ? Apart from the Suppression fire available to BAR upgraded riflemen, do they also get more firepower than before?

2. Do the default Rangers come with garands too? Also, at what ranges Rangers excel with default guns or lmgs?

3. Similarly, which ranges are best for volks/panzergrens/Grens to engage with their default rifles. I guess the first question will answer this one sort of.

Thanks.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Some questions on the game units

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Jul 2017, 14:42

M1 Garand (Rifles)

Range: 60
From short to distant (short/mid/long/distant)
0-15/ 15-25/ 25-35/ 35-60

Accuracy:
0.65/ 0.45/ 0.3/ 0.22

Cooldown:
Max: 1.75
Min: 1.75

Modifier (again short- distant)
0.45/ 1/ 1.5/ 1.5

8 rounds before reload.
Reload time:
Max: 3.5
Min: 2.5

Modifier:
1.25/ 1.15/ 1/ 1

Damage:
20-30


_____________________________________________________________________________


M1 Garand Ranger

Range: 60
From short to distant (short/mid/long/distant)
0-15/ 15-25/ 25-35/ 35-60

Accuracy:
0.7/ 0.55/ 0.32/ 0.23

Cooldown:
Max: 1.75
Min: 1.75

Modifier (again short- distant)
0.55/ 1/ 1.5/ 1.5

8 rounds before reload.
Reload time:
Max: 3.5
Min: 2.5

Modifier:
1.25/ 1.15/ 1/ 1

Damage:
20-30

____________________________________________________________________

K 98 (Volks). (PE K98 uses actually same stats, even those of the elite squad)

Range: 60
From short to distant (short/mid/long/distant)
0-15/ 15-25/ 25-35/ 35-60

Accuracy:
0.7/ 0.55/ 0.35/ 0.35

Cooldown:
Max: 2
Min: 2

Modifier (again short- distant)
0.75/ 1/ 1.25/ 1.25

5 rounds before reload.
Reload time:
Max: 3
Min: 2.5

Modifier:
1.25/ 1.15/ 1/ 1

Damage:
23-33

_________________________________________________________________________
K98 Elite (used by WH grens and Stormtrooper)

Range: 60
From short to distant (short/mid/long/distant)
0-15/ 15-25/ 25-35/ 35-60

Accuracy:
0.7/ 0.55/ 0.45/ 0.45

Cooldown:
Max: 2
Min: 2
Modifier (again short- distant)
0.75/ 1/ 1.25/ 1.25

5 rounds before reload.
Reload time:
Max: 3
Min: 2.5
Modifier:
1.25/ 1.15/ 1/ 1

Damage:
23-33




Note pls: Rangers have tp_Riflmen_Elite while all others here have tp_Infantry. PE Grens have usually tp_solider but in this case the weapons have no differences against inf or solider tp.
However, The weapons here have 0.75 accuarcy penalty against tp_Riflmen_Elite used by Rangers as long as they dont move.
But thats problematic. As long as you dont move with rangers you will survive longer. But you cant close in. If you cant close in you cant beat grens.

Note 2: M1 becomes superios at ranges closer than 25. In terms of rate of fire at least. But this is the range where axis can throw nades at you. Besides you will lose men when closing in normal conditions.

Note 3: Volks and Rifles have 60 HP. PE grens 65. PE Elite Grens 75, Rangers 75, WH Grens 80.


What does it mean? You wont beat axis Rifle equiped units with US once at distance. Only when closing in which is difficult. Rangers have a chance to battle volks slowly down in a ranged combat. But its not really a win than a draw between them. Ranges have 0.23 accuracy vs Volks, those have 0.2625 chance to hit.
Rangers have 15 HP more, but considerable less damage per hit. Also Volks shoot 0.125 seconds faster and reload faster. But have 3 rounds less before reloading.

Will do mgs later maybe. If there is a similiar interest.


My personal Opinion: Rangers could have a visible edge over rifles in ranged combat. I mean DPS wise.

WH Grens ans PE Elite assault grens should be readjusted. Why do WH grens need Elite infantry Combat Performence (in Terror and def doc even superior in many aspects to any allied elite inf). Their rifle stats are better than those of enfield commandos in many terms. Massive HP pool to which even PE assault grens cant compete. And the ammount of upgrades that give massive boosts (def in particular) as well as weapons and abilties (stgs and stuff, flame nades, VT, assault ability depending on doctrine) turn them into wolfs in sheep clothes.
Who would expect behind the word "Grenadier" to be a unit equal or superior to commandos?
What they really maintain from basic units is their reinforce costs. They arent as high as those of most elites. Their upkeep is also one of the lowest compared to PE grens or rangers. They also have highest capture speed together with rifles and stormtroopers-

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sgtToni95
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Re: Some questions on the game units

Postby sgtToni95 » 15 Jul 2017, 18:13

Hawks try to just give infos on this forum section, i don't think people looking into the "noob camp" will really care about balance problems.
They might just learn the wrong solution to their problems.

Thanks for infos and warnings tho. As always very appreciated and useful :)

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Medic Truck
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Re: Some questions on the game units

Postby Medic Truck » 15 Jul 2017, 18:18

Thanks Warhawks97 for the info. I will reply when I will be sober. ;-)

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MarKr
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Re: Some questions on the game units

Postby MarKr » 16 Jul 2017, 13:53

Warhawks97 wrote:However, The weapons here have 0.75 accuarcy penalty against tp_Riflmen_Elite used by Rangers as long as they dont move.
You caught my attention here...the accuracy roll is calculated: accuracy_at_given_distance * modifiers_from_whatever_source(vet/cover/unit_modifs etc.) * TT_accuracy_multiplier - that is for "not moving" case.

But when the unit IS moving the calculation is: accuracy_at_given_distance * modifiers_from_whatever_source(vet/cover/unit_modifs etc.) * TT_accuracy_multiplier * TT_moving_accuracy_multiplier. So since the TT value is 0.75 and "moving" value in TT is 1 then they are harder to hit no matter if they move or not.
It goes same for penetration and rear penetration - when a gun shoots at tank's rear, the formula is also (everything else) * TT_penetration * TT_penetration_rear; the roll uses both values, not just one.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Some questions on the game units

Postby Warhawks97 » 16 Jul 2017, 15:14

Thats interesting. You just figured it?

So lets assume you have a gun that shall have a very low chance to penetrate the frontal armor. Lets say 0.1 in the TT. But shall penetrate from rear for sure. I would have to make the rear pen chance set up to 100 at least? (Not taking the range modifiers into acc now or any other modifiers).

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MarKr
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Re: Some questions on the game units

Postby MarKr » 16 Jul 2017, 16:12

Yes, I actually figured out after we changed JT's armor in the game. I thought the values are applied separately (I assumed the same as you with accuracy during static/moving) but even 90mm guns bounced off from rear shots, after I adjusted the values the way that I counted in both frontal and rear, now penetration chances work as intended.
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Medic Truck
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Re: Some questions on the game units

Postby Medic Truck » 16 Jul 2017, 16:16

Warhawks97 wrote:M1 Garand (Rifles)


My personal Opinion: Rangers could have a visible edge over rifles in ranged combat. I mean DPS wise.

WH Grens ans PE Elite assault grens should be readjusted. Why do WH grens need Elite infantry Combat Performence (in Terror and def doc even superior in many aspects to any allied elite inf). Their rifle stats are better than those of enfield commandos in many terms. Massive HP pool to which even PE assault grens cant compete. And the ammount of upgrades that give massive boosts (def in particular) as well as weapons and abilties (stgs and stuff, flame nades, VT, assault ability depending on doctrine) turn them into wolfs in sheep clothes.
Who would expect behind the word "Grenadier" to be a unit equal or superior to commandos?
What they really maintain from basic units is their reinforce costs. They arent as high as those of most elites. Their upkeep is also one of the lowest compared to PE grens or rangers. They also have highest capture speed together with rifles and stormtroopers-


I think this is the reason why after initial capture push, all allied players run towards either the Quad Halftrack and snipers to push back the ever
strong and growing in vet - grens.

Isn't the argument in favour of grens is that they cost more? How much substance does this hold as things die quite quickly in the battlefield here in the BK. Also, I have seen Infantry Doc players that only use artillery in team games combined with the Quad and the 2 Tank Hunter squads.

In the infantry doctrine specifically, how these things are really useful because I don't see in any game replays these things being used? -

1. Defence construction twice as that as before by engineers (Tank Traps,Wires,Covers).

2. Fortified Outpost. How good is the Fortified Outpost's prospect in a team game?

kwok
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Re: Some questions on the game units

Postby kwok » 16 Jul 2017, 16:32

Grens got pretty popular after the kch was removed and terror doc buffed the grens. Back when terror doc was most played, axis players were in great search for the new kch and found the newly upgraded grens suitable. Treat them like assault infantry not terminators (like how kch were used that axis players still need to learn to adjust to), which means they should be supported. I find them extremely capablenin terror and def doc, but obsolete to the stormtroopers in blitz. Not sure if that answers your question.

1. Defensive construction makes defenses available to riflemen which over the years with a lot of good player leaving, becomes less and less popular. Back then with a lot of strong players, having many riflemen with the ability to make defenses was a great strategy (and still is but just less popular). There were some fine players like joethepro that built and entire army composition of tons of riflemen in trenches. Others like babysealbatter would lay mines everywhere with riflemen. I personally have been trying to be a lot more active with my backline reserve and "resting" infantry by setting up prepared defenses just to keep them not idle and create fall back points. I'm not going to critique the current meta here but I'll definitely say there is room for the doc upgrade to be used. You should try!

2. Personally I don't really use fortified outposts because I'm a mobility player. If I build prepared defenses it's normally sandbags and wire at most. But, there were definitely talks about its usage in other posts recently. They act as reinforce points as well as 360 trenches. My style is more "let the enemy start capturing the point and attack while they have negative modifiers", but other more strong frontline defense players will comment with better options. I'll try to find the post talking about fortressing by using the fortified post

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Medic Truck
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Re: Some questions on the game units

Postby Medic Truck » 16 Jul 2017, 17:04

Thanks for the explanation kwok.
I forgot about the Ranger Captain's role. The only good solution I have found to protect him is the GMC truck upgraded with the .50 cal in infantry and Halftrack later. The Halftrack benefit is that it can reinforce and help the Caption quite safe from bullets at distance and quickly run away in case of retreat without losing the vet. Any good infantry doc guides / replays

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Warhawks97
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Re: Some questions on the game units

Postby Warhawks97 » 16 Jul 2017, 17:32

kwok wrote:
1. Defensive construction makes defenses available to riflemen which over the years with a lot of good player leaving, becomes less and less popular. Back then with a lot of strong players, having many riflemen with the ability to make defenses was a great strategy (and still is but just less popular). There were some fine players like joethepro that built and entire army composition of tons of riflemen in trenches. Others like babysealbatter would lay mines everywhere with riflemen. I personally have been trying to be a lot more active with my backline reserve and "resting" infantry by setting up prepared defenses just to keep them not idle and create fall back points. I'm not going to critique the current meta here but I'll definitely say there is room for the doc upgrade to be used. You should try!


Dont forget me dude! I am disappointed. Army size 322 or something was my top.
5 med trucks etc.

I fought luftwaffe with 7 or more rifle squads and captain. That was a pain of micro managment. 65 clicks per minute (i had a program to check this). Once even 70 with inf doc. After that my entire hand and fingers just hurt.


Those i couldnt mirco were put in trenches (which they made themselves) or upgraded stuff.

For assault i during my last real active BK days 2-4 ranger squads (depending on situation with zooks or without) followed by 3 rifle squads to which captain was attached as second line shooting and retreat back up or using rifle nades VS light vehicles that didnt die by single zook. The area was put in smoke as good as possible. But smoke didnt always work.


Medic Truck wrote:

I think this is the reason why after initial capture push, all allied players run towards either the Quad Halftrack and snipers to push back the ever
strong and growing in vet - grens.

Isn't the argument in favour of grens is that they cost more? How much substance does this hold as things die quite quickly in the battlefield here in the BK. Also, I have seen Infantry Doc players that only use artillery in team games combined with the Quad and the 2 Tank Hunter squads.




Well.... They cost 410 MP. Elites with comparable weapon stats require unlocks and cost more, esspecially reinfoce cost. You get inf that is much worse for 400 MP. Grens are simply good when they come... just like that. Rangers for slightly lower cost (but high upkeep, almost twice that of grens) are usually usefull after that inf doc upgrades. Same goes for commandos that are way more costly.

In def doc they get this massive defensive bonus. If they are put in cover then you wont get suppressed actually. And they survive much longer. In a late game crater map they can take massive beating.

In Terror doc they also get quite nice boosts that increase survivability. And the more get killed the stronger get the remaining guys in the squad.

In BK they are obsolet so far as kwok said. Except you go rather for tanks only which i wouldnt reccomend.


And as US the M16 is simply the unit that keeps you in game and saves your ass. Coz its the only unit you can get that is capable of killing axis infantry at distance reliable.


As for WH i felt that one of the "ultimate combos" was volks, recon, 50 mm pak, 20 mm puma and 81 mm mortar. That way you had the total dominance in any ranged combat against US. You was well defensive but also offensive and highly mobile.


In the infantry doctrine specifically, how these things are really useful because I don't see in any game replays these things being used? -

1. Defence construction twice as that as before by engineers (Tank Traps,Wires,Covers).


You meant that upgrade after faster inf production? Its usefull coz all your rifles can get defenses by their own. But also increases the speed with which engis build emplacments. But i might be mistaken here.


2. Fortified Outpost. How good is the Fortified Outpost's prospect in a team game?



Highly depending where it is and more importantly what your role is within the team as inf doc.



@Markr: thx a lot for that information

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Re: Some questions on the game units

Postby kwok » 16 Jul 2017, 18:23

Haha but Warhawks didn't you do the 5 medic truck play from joethepro? He was the first USB saw do that.

And just in case we were showing off hehe. Ask illa, I can hold the newly buffed luft with just 2 rifle squads.

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Medic Truck
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Re: Some questions on the game units

Postby Medic Truck » 16 Jul 2017, 19:12

Thanks Warhawks for the info.

@Kwok,

What is the 5 medic truck game?
About that against Luft showoff, you could share the secret and help the nigga out here. :lol:

kwok
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Re: Some questions on the game units

Postby kwok » 16 Jul 2017, 21:10

The 5 medic truck thing Warhawks is talking about is making multiple medic trucks and collecting bodies for zombie squads. By the end of the game you'll have abajillion rifles. There are a few things you would want to do this:

Supply yard upgrade to reinforce your rifles.
Multiple medic trucks to pick up bodies.
Lots of munitions recommended to support your rifles to handle multiple situations.

I personally enjoy the def doc version of this can making a shit ton of volks with the def cover bonus which Warhawks can testify to this: able to hold off 3 players alone with uber volks.


About my two rifles, it wasn't an entirely fair game because it was a 1v1 and my opponent was really insistent that luft were OP (which they are but not for the reasons everyone bitches about). It was also on a big map (2v2). Unfortunately I don't have a replay, it was on an old version. I can check when I am home. My opponent can talk about it or not, but I'm sure my opponent remembers.
The morale of the story is don't complain but instead learn to get good, don't leave things for balance lobbying to save you and you can fight your way out of any situation. If you stay out of the balance forum and come to this forum more, then one day you'll be able to do the same.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Some questions on the game units

Postby Warhawks97 » 16 Jul 2017, 21:11

kwok wrote:Haha but Warhawks didn't you do the 5 medic truck play from joethepro? He was the first USB saw do that.

And just in case we were showing off hehe. Ask illa, I can hold the newly buffed luft with just 2 rifle squads.



lol. Nope. I developed inf doc by my own. I never watched or copied from anyone. And i never saw joe playing it. I did that before him i would say coz i did that right when that truck got introduced.

Feels like its been centuries ago.

Also i am using basic HE sherman side on side with inf as inf doc. Jumbo costs me CP and more res. Using them mainly for defensive support.


I never copied anything from anyone. No matter what doc i played.


@Medic Truck: Such scenarios happen in long games with balanced teams. The medic trucks are everywhere on good spots. Arround teammates retreat points or whatever. And whenever a an engagment takes place, you get free wounded soldiers and thus squads at the end.

I would not reccommend to make 5 of them right away as soon as you can build them. You get them over time actually.

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Medic Truck
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Re: Some questions on the game units

Postby Medic Truck » 16 Jul 2017, 21:51

@kwok

Thanks for the good advice.

@Warhawk

Appreciate the info.


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