Wake wrote:In your opinion, is there ever any reason to produce the 76mm Shermans? Are the cheap Easy Eights with all of the sandbags and free veterancy still bad?
Ok, here comes the funny thing.
Nobody ever here played so much and so long with shermans as i do. The majority (actually all) armor players trying to get rather quickly Jacks/persh while they get maybe a jumb or single sherman. Before calli/jumbo swap the average ammount of shermans per game was exactly two: Jumbo and a normal one against inf.
Ive played game successfully without even unlocking pershings. I went through nightmares trying everything possible to play armor doc with all the support abilites.
Things since then changed. Calli came earlier, off map arty comes earlier, 90 mm became significantly better (once they bounced from tank IV´s), the 76 became better (yes, that gun was worse) and now has approx 49,5% pen chance vs tank IV H/J (when i started playing it was arround 30% or so), they are now faster and accelerate faster and so on.
So in comparision to older times, Yes! They are now worthy to get compared to what i was used to expect from shermans.
How its now?
Well, still a waste most of the time.
However, the fact that you get ammo upgrades at default, since the Allied war machinery replaces now more than just two tanks and only shermans (and normal td´s) and since AT guns have got aim time and shermans got a speed boost i would say that they can now have some sort of value. However, you wont kill much with them and they are much more a meatshield and good against vehicles.
Kr0noZ wrote:In his mind probably yes, because you still need to spend resources on the sandbags and CPs on the unlocks and get a tank that still is barely worth it's unit cost.
On the other hand, I personally think the shermans are a steal if you don't want them for fightig head on tank battles, and use them as core to play around with other units. Their purpose is not to be a frontline unit, it's a support vehicle that forces the enemy to bring specialized counters. keep them bind other units and they can earn their money back in time.
Well, you make me laughing a bit when you say: "forces the enemy to bring specialized counters". You mean the Tier 2 50 mm AT guns that are swarming arround on the map in every game at every corner? You spend tons of MP and fuel to get your e8 available, overrepaired, sandbagged, and whatever just to see how a fucking T2 Toy gun pops up and shoots your shit tank to moon? 50 mm will always be there, no matter if you have only vehicles or shermans. Thats quite relaxing for axis. No need to actually get "specialized" counters. Spam stuarts or shermans, 50 mm will make it quick.
Its this "specialized" sort of counter you talk about? The 50 mm AT has, without any AP round or ambush boost, approx 40% pen vs an e8 at max range when e8 has sandbags. And the e8 armor is already better compared to standard sherman armor.
Ive tried to play the way you describe. The good thing was, one e8 or sherman is easier and cheaper to build as my axis opponent can get any of his silly special halftracks. Destroy one mortar halftrack with an e8 and the tank was worth its cost.
If i like it? hell not. When i played BK doc a early coming Tank IV J/Ostwind/stug/Tank IV D spam could absolutely win the day. The tank IV´s are cheap and i still easily go head on so far on any allied tank except pershing. And those tank IV make up 3 out of 16 unlocks in Bk doc.
The shermans and their support make up like 80% of armor doc and are still just driving arround to battle enemie support units and are, as you already figured out, "not to be a frontline unit(s)".
Put these things together and you see the absurdity.
The mistakes are:
1. Shermans are armor doc core units, but are not able to stand and survive on the frontline for really long. Not to mention to actually fight the lightest axis armor.
2. Shermans do not
force the enemie to get speciliazed counters. Hell it would be great if they would do at least this. While forcing the enemie to get 75 mm AT guns or even TH doc and slowly TD´s, the shermans meanwhile could harrass and cause havoc accross the map where these "specialized counters" cant be all at once. But the reality is: Glass canons that can stop a sherman are everywhere and fast. You get 50 mm literally right from the start (esspecially when you play high res for example), as non doc unit that is very mobile and buildable in every HQ regardless of the doctrine (allied cant get a similiar counter for example to stop tank IV´s, 17 pdr and 76 mm in FHQ´s required special docs).
3. BK was and is simply "spam unfriendly". The only "spam" that i used to change the tide and win games was the "tank IV spam" which was not really a spam except you consider three units of one type during a game as spam. But even when the first wave wasnt successfull, further spam is usless. And that goes for shermans even more as for Tank IV´s.
The armor doc (and US armor in regards to shermans) would be much more successfull if they would be a bit more expensive and therefore a bit better, esspecially when it comes to armor protection against the so far lightest sort of anti tank weapons.
Also the cost drop after mass prod unlock is just too much. Its over 100 MP. But i think you guys know my thinking of too crazy focus on mass productions in BK.
If this what kronoz said would be actually the truth, it would be huge step forward. I am not expecting to get head on alone against panthers or tigers. That shouldnt happen. Just if the shermans wouldnt have to take so massive punishment from cheap and early medium AT, that would be great. The mobility and harassment card could be played out really well. And if the 76 would be just slightly less gamble when facing Tank IV´s.... damn. when you say, Kronoz, you "don't want them for fightig head on tank battles", did you include the moment when an easy eight faces a Tank IV F2, H or J? Its one thing to avoid battleing Panthers and bigger stuff, but tank IV´s? And what kind of units you want to "bind" and "play arround" if not medium tanks and stugs? The ammount of units you want "to bind" arent that great anymore for the easy eight. Against inf but also halftracks you can choose the standard sherman. Fighting AT guns in their current state is suicide anyways. I must have missed a huge ammount of units with which " i can play arround" with easy eights. We dont even have to talk about the 76 sherman, or?
Good medium AT protection, reliable anti medium armor gun and, before i forget, a reload speed that allows me to actually to shoot at my opponents within a given time.
at this point: @wake and Kronoz: The 76 shermans reloading so slow that you will barely ever get a second shot out of the barrel. So even in the very lucky case you penetrated a target just once, he will fire back twice and penetrate you most likely.
At the end, everything is bad on them, except you want to hunt the so numerous occuring axis Halftracks. They need always someone to play with.
And dont get mad when your first shot failed to cause some damage. Go to your tank factory and put the next in production. They dont cost you much.