What the OP discussion is about

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Warhawks97
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What the OP discussion is about

Postby Warhawks97 » 05 Aug 2017, 20:42

Note this is not a discussion of what shall be changed etc or OP complain. The reason i making this in this part of the forum is that many guys who followed recent discussions will have it hard to fully understand why there are lately so crazy contrariwise statments like "Axis OP", or "allis OP" and why it will never end nor it will be answered. So this is for guys like medic truck and non "top class players" who got maybe confused.

The main reason for all that is that the making of allis and Axis is a whole different one.

Axis in general are more mirrored to each other. The advantage is that in normal games when players find randomly together, the required teamplay to win is less important. You can handle most situations by your own. That alone could cause a cryout "Axis OP".

The disadvantage is that you very often get doubled capabilities. Since all docs have everything by their own people tend to get more lets say inf and AT guns as actually required. For instance scenarios can and did happen where i saw Bk and terror players together first going for inf and failing against shermans. Later both thought panthers will make it and got countered by a few 17 pdrs.
So what is considered advantage can quickly turn out into a disadvantage.


Same goes for the Factions. PE and WH can start quite mirrior like. AT gun, grens and schwimmwagen or HMG42 etc. That also means that unless you have asked your mates what they will build first you have no idea what comes out first. And then shit can happen like "we got only inf and schwimmwagens".... all four players in extrem. As allied that cant happen between CW and US. Firstly CW cant build vehicles right away. That means a US player knows that a jeep will be a unit that works in conjunction with whatever CW will get out first. US meanwhile knows currently that boys AT will be the unit of choice first which in return means that AT gun is not mandatory to be build quick. This alone makes allied early currently being in a good harmony.
That could be different if the starting units of PE and WH would be whole different. Not just "can be different" but "forced to be different" in whatever way.

Now coming to the shocking tools.

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:Inf doc: For 6 points you can get amazing set of shock instruments, each of them alone can collapse axis front if used in the right hands, of course I mean CQB+Arty strike+HE Jumbo combo.

AB doc: I think everyone knows that it used to be my favotite doc, mainly because of the extremely fast and flexible gameplay, you get huge benefits right away by unlocking 101s and building AB HQ, which have an ability to drop smoke anywhere on the map, combined with flame nades you easily can get rid of annoying mg42 or pak 38 here or there, so you just get 4 AB squads as soon as possible, as support you buy Quad cal. and 57mm truck, usually I was able to deploy this army in 9-10 minutes, this set of units allows you counter pretty much everything axis can throw on you.

RE doc: As hawks already said, they have a surprise on every game stage, this doc is the best for "early gg" 95mm Churchill + HE Churchill supported by AB swarm hardly can be stopped.

Raf: Glyders are available right away, cluster bombs are the most deadly early ability, quick access to M10 Achiles which is the most cost-effective vehicle in game, along with HE sherman in Armor doc.



This is one example of how shocking throughout tier ups till end game works.

There are a few possible scenarios ive seen or that ive been used to play with clans back in 2012-2014. Even at this time, when used allied units were way worse than now, allied seemed OP in quite a few ways.

Back then we combined arty inf and armor or instead of arty RE. The combination was as followed to win in about 15 mins or less (even to end).

Advance got initiated by inf doc using off map or cqc (whatever suited most). That combined or followed by RE glider drop. Cruicial area was taken, vehicles screened (AT was down due to glider or off map) and countered counter attacks. Then churchill came (back then armor was worse but MK IV was the one with HE and required no cps), map controle achieved. Then 17 pdr pit was build already. Finally shermans came in and finished the job while inf got howitzers or whatever.

There are also combos like when doing 4 vs 4. Jeep, Boys-AT, sniper, rifles. Then recce comes, 75 mm arty HT and inf offmap to prevent axis to build any new defense. 17 pdrs come among with churchill tanks, HE shermans join and M10´s and M16 will stay guard. Possibly there can be also an air doc instead of lets say armor which gives early access to airstrikes and glider and whatever.

Playing allis like this is fun. And hard to counter. But the requirments towards players is also considerable. They all have to know when which allied doc can get access to what to deal with what unit axis can get at this time. And this is done by 100% experience only. They also have to see the greater total in order not to waste one of the shock tools on something that could be very easily dealed with.

A (bad) example maybe:
Inf doc player sees HMG, mortar and heavy PE heavy assault grens on a bunch near a forward location. Nearby a Pak 43 88 mm (the big gun). For him the HMG with inf seems to be the perfect target. He has no tanks and only inf. Near AT gun is 20 mm vehicle. He has a 57 mm AT gun and zooks. Alone he will most likely shoot the HMG as those with mortar and other inf killers seem to be most dangerous. The right pick would have been the AT gun bc his mate has two cheap HE shermans ready for attack that could deal quickly all inf, mortar and vehicles.

I hope you get the point. You dont necessary kill what is your personal threat but what you can kill the best while your largest threads will be solved by a mate. Long tom on Hidden Jagdpanzer IV/70 or Panther that isnt aware. If your mate has a pershing or SP you kill the IV/70 with it.
This is they way of thinking allied players must have to play the "OP card".

Axis mostly trust in rough power.

That argument "allis have cheap counter" applies also to axis. Volks vs rangers (likely def doc and ranged combat), Gebirgs to any inf spam, 20 mm vehicles against infantry rushes or ostwind. Tank IV vs shermans or Hetzer, 50 mm against any armor but the heaviest. Jagdpanzer IV/70 vs Pershings, Nashorn or Jagpanther vs Jumbos and SP and so on.

I think the only way to really solve this would be entirley new approaches in faction and doctrine designs. PE would be significantly different in the faction design and right from the start compared to WH. That way whole new (effective) unit compositions would show up.

The WH docs would need to have some clear directions what they are actually doing in a team.
Could also be the other way arround as sukin would suggest. Allied docs more versatile and less teamplay dependent. That doubling capabilties would also cripple allied.

Hope that makes it a bit more understandable what the current "OP" debatte is actually about.

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Medic Truck
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Re: What the OP discussion is about

Postby Medic Truck » 05 Aug 2017, 22:57

Good points there Warhawks97. I am yet to see TH doc and SE doc used effectively. Also, Defensive doc too. Unless new methods of using different unit combos and tactics don't surface, there will be talks about these things ad nauseam/infinitum. I also believe emphasis should be given to a doctrines aspect which are the least used. There lies the thing to make things make more logical and meaningful in organizing a doc's progression. And then only a clear cut limitation to a doc is also required so as to put emphasis on the team's gameplay. Not, just starting to compare everything individually 1vs1. But, no doc should be handicap too. basic tools to fight should be there which in right hands will be good to compensate the specialization demerits. Untill then, these direct comparisions will come up time and again.

So, my understanding is that to improve a doc, the most unused things should be examined and discussed and to try to make those things lucrative and also keep an opportunity cost sort of thing. It is difficult but certainly doable. There are plenty of ways in which a doc could be approached but still people tend to follow a same routine. So, either it works everytime and shines with regards to the other choices or just the simple way to solve an issue. Still that is not an issue. Not working is an issue that should be examined having regard to the replays and player's experience in the wide spectrum.

That is also the reason why I sort of deemed the Ranger Captain 2 or 3 men squad a consideration to make the upper horizontal line of options in the Infantry doc more lucrative too - to go for the riflemen style game. It would not be near to anything OP but will give a good taste to US infantry and most importantly a choice. Similarly, different ways to make a doc lucrative in Wehr/Brits/PE could be examined. And lucrative doesn't mean to conquer it all. Just the good choices within the 'defined' strengths of a doc.

kwok
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Re: What the OP discussion is about

Postby kwok » 07 Aug 2017, 18:48

Warhawks97 wrote:Same goes for the Factions. PE and WH can start quite mirrior like. AT gun, grens and schwimmwagen or HMG42 etc. That also means that unless you have asked your mates what they will build first you have no idea what comes out first. And then shit can happen like "we got only inf and schwimmwagens".... all four players in extrem. As allied that cant happen between CW and US. Firstly CW cant build vehicles right away. That means a US player knows that a jeep will be a unit that works in conjunction with whatever CW will get out first. US meanwhile knows currently that boys AT will be the unit of choice first which in return means that AT gun is not mandatory to be build quick. This alone makes allied early currently being in a good harmony.

From the players who have learned from me, this is exactly why I tell players "don't ask what doc i'm going at the beginning of the game, ask what my first units are". Doctrine choice can be left and decided later especially after intel on the enemy doc matchups, you can essentially apply doc counters per player match up later in game. I always delay doctrine choice. But the REAL decision at the beginning of every game that makes the most immediate impact is "what is your first unit going to be?" That helps with team army comp synergy a lot. This goes for all factions.

Warhawks97 wrote:I hope you get the point. You dont necessary kill what is your personal threat but what you can kill the best while your largest threads will be solved by a mate. Long tom on Hidden Jagdpanzer IV/70 or Panther that isnt aware. If your mate has a pershing or SP you kill the IV/70 with it.
This is they way of thinking allied players must have to play the "OP card".

This I think is one of the most important takeaways from his post. Play to the entire battle, not just your small space.

I don't necessarily agree with all that Warhawks has said on this post, but there are still definitely things worth learning.


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