Doctrines Tips

A place to debate and share game or general military strategy/tactics.
User avatar
Leonida [525]
Posts: 136
Joined: 26 Jun 2016, 09:25

Doctrines Tips

Postby Leonida [525] » 11 Oct 2016, 10:18

Hello everyone :) I think it is useful to make this a topic that compares the various doctrines of the factions, to say which is more suited to deal with the other, or which are indicated to be used together to create good synergies in the game. I see that there are always new players in this mod and I think this could help greatly to improve their (and also our) game faster. For this I also ask for the help of the "older players" :D so they can explain how they use the various doctrines based on the situation in the game.

For example
- The doctrines strengths
- Weaknesses
- Any useful synergies between the doctrines
- What units or special abilities of a doctrine can make life difficult to another specific doctrine

US - Inf, Armor, AB
CW - RE, RA, RAF
WEHR - BK, Terr, Def
PE - Luft, SE, TH

I know it is hard work, but I think it is really useful to improve pvps to get them better for all players, but also introduce more people in the mod and in PvP and make them understand how this is better than continuing with the skirmishes :D

BK TECH TREE http://forum.bkmod.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=104
SOME TIPS http://forum.bkmod.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1154

All players are welcome

User avatar
Warhawks97
Posts: 2150
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 21:45
Location: Germany

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby Warhawks97 » 11 Oct 2016, 15:13

As for me i did like the royal engineer/US inf doc combo. Off map, glider, CQC could make a quick territory gain in mid game which then is quickly secured by strong fortifications to counter axis counteroffensive and preparing final push with 95 mm churchill, HE church or others and US inf that can reinforce nearby. Additional a 17 pdr in the back or mobile 17 pdr equiped tanks.


For axis i did like the combo of BK, Terror and Luft or SE. Either Terror gets grens in mid and panther in late while BK gets cheap tank IV´s for mid helping terror grens while later going for storms that are backing terror Panther G. In case Luft is choosed then keeps nonstop skirmish the enemies (no mass retreat or silly blobbing, instead ambushing and harrass allied advance and blocking them from forming up for a deadly push) while BK brings tanks, later inf and Terror rocket arty and later Panther G (and few grens). In case SE is choosed it backs with 120 mm mortar while terror and BK gets tanks and inf. Depending on which of them has fuel at a stage of the game, those gets the tanks. BK and Terror can both field usefull inf and Tanks so players can swap their roles whenever they want.

A also liked combo for quick victories was luft, BK and and SE. But its not working as good as once since Boys AT can kill schwimmwagen, Luft inf veting less fast and Tank IV mass prod is delayed by one point. But i think it can still be a good combo especially for mid games as you have early on strong inf (the best actually as all counterpart inf like commandos and AB have to wait till late game to be effective while luft is effective as soon as it is fielded), good medium tanks and early but powerfull arty+ booby traps.


Allied:
Since RE churchills got buffed and other doctrines changed there are even more good combos possible. TH doc for example has now some use unlike in old times where US couldnt field tanks due to fuel issues and RE being without Tanks that require heavy AT. So atm it can make sense using TH to counter armor doc and early churchills.


AB and armor might be also a good combo. Just both will have problems as soon as Panthers occure in numbers in late game. As for allied if saw ver often RAF, CW arty, Inf doc and US armor. AB can also be used instead of RAF. That combo provides tools to fight off everything axis brings up. CW arty is essential to counter axis arty since no other allied doc is really fielding effective counterarty. Well played CW arty doc counters axis arty, smashes defenses (smaller than standard bunker) and knocks out the heaviest axis tanks. Non-super heavy tanks can be countered with Jacksons or 17 pdrs provided by CW arty player or RAF. Armor doc combined with RAF or AB can fight off axis inf meanwhile.

For some time Armor, CW arty and AB was a often seen combo. But inf doc can also be very usefull for longer lasting 4 vs 4 games. No other doc can create a large as large as those of inf doc. My personal record exceeded 312 popcap. But when doing that you literally play everywhere and all areas of the map require your attention. I usually provided lots of stuff for my mates that their docs couldnt provide. I had like 4-6 medic trucks accross the map that provided me with endless rifles. I have put many of them in trenches across the map as i couldnt controle them all at the same time. All got an BAR and that slowed down axis advances. I also quickly secured territories. Otherwise important points would have been retaken quickly by axis. So you simply pushed axis to death with slow attrition which is the safest way. So it was at the end a mix of Rifles in Trenches, medic trucks to ensure steady supply of infantry, HMG´s nests and M10´s in numbers which are core units for me in any US doc as solid AT that can be also used to use wholes in axis defense and killing Arty vehicles. In addition 107 mm mortars to cover cruical areas. However, even playing it with such a large army you still highly depend on CW arty. Coz even the largest mix of trenches, M10, HMG´s and mortars can be overrun by a single well placed and planned heavy arty/assault inf/Panther combo. A combo of walking stuka, Panther and luft inf can pulverize any allied defense. If that happens the reserve has to be thrown against it. Also, if you think you waste MP for emplacments that get killed by arty you are afterall usefull. You can win either by getting more MG´s nestes and rifles as the axis can destroy if their ammo supply is low enough. Or axis have to reveal their arty positions when shooting your emplacments and your CW arty mate can finish them off and is less likely a target for axis arty.

but generally saying it is more cruical and important to pick the right docs with allied as with axis. One wrong pick as allied (like believing we win fast enough that we dont need CW arty) and you might as for a rematch after 20 mins of playing. Axis is more forgiving. Very often players there choose what they want. All of them has pretty much everything. You can play for example Def doc as assault doc with grens that have this defensive cover bonus making them almost immortal when there are enough craters and luft gets 88 defenses, 20 mm anti inf units and hetzer TD´s. You can also swapp the roles more often as axis regardless of what doc you play. I figured out that even TH doc can be a very effective mid game counter to RE/inf doc emplacment spam approaches. Nobody gets rocket arty with such damage per missile as early as TH doc. So you can get two cheap early hotchkiss and pulverize the very early 17 pdrs. Just dont shoot them mindlessly from mid range and you wont stuggle with poor accuracy. That can be nicely combined with BK doc early Tank IV´s (or even stug III´s) and Terror gren infantry or luftwaffe inf.

kwok
Posts: 846
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby kwok » 11 Oct 2016, 16:27

I like how Warhawks only talks about them in a team setting like how they should be.
Even though it's not meant to be played 1v1, I'll try to describe them individually with the intention to be matched to cover each other's weaknesses.
I'll try to grade them on army balance to speak to flexibility, micro intensity to speak to skill level needed, and it's glaring weakness. Trying my best to keep this post short and am happy to go in more detail on a different post or something.


Wermacht - terror
Generally regarded as high performing-high cost faction with abilities that buff its already top tier units.
Army composition - balanced, has strong inf, armor, and arty.
Micro intensity - low, mostly regarded as the "easiest run and gun doc".
Weaknesses - you're in for a rough early game because of the high resource and cp costs, but you trade off your early game capability for a dominating late game.

Wermacht - blitz
Despite the name, blitz takes some time to get rolling before they start fielding their core power units. They do amazing mid game and hold true late game if you can survive the allied early game.
Army composition - mostly balanced, lack reliable and cheap arty but do well in all other tracks.
Micro intensity - low, stormtroopers are forgiving units to use because of their damage combined with durability, meanwhile tanks can be easily replaced with this docs upgrades
Weakness - with the stuh nerf and lack in arty, bk doc may have trouble with prepared defenses. Setting up to take on a defensive position will take patience and micro, it is a more viable strategy to "blitz around"

Wermacht - defense

I have too many open secrets here that I revealed through the forum not in explicit topics. may become irrelevant soon though... Def doc is getting a nerf for the abuses that not many people do. First personal tip: this is not an arty based doctrine.
Army Composition - balanced, lacks strong mid game units but it has units to take on any situation.
Micro intensity - low to high, depends how you play it. This is the fun part as well as the most frustrating part of def doc. Know your teammate's plans before strategizing. You can get really micro heavy with the insane active buff abilities with cheap super units, or you can slowly and passively push your line with generally durable units.
Weakness - mid game it sort of falls off with half tracks that are more or less the same thing and no real mobility to keep up with the generally mobile units of other factions mid game. This is the window where def doc will break or thrive.

I'll come back with another faction later.

User avatar
JimQwilleran
Posts: 977
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 15:05

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby JimQwilleran » 11 Oct 2016, 16:29

This is impossible in my opinion. Everyone has to find his own style, some kind of balance between attack and defense. Some players like to be constant attackers, some are awesome in counter attacking, some are quite good in defending. But there is no good universal strategy for any faction, as you can ALWAYS get countered by some kind of combination.
Let me get you a short example. You could tell an inf doc player to make combat engies + jeep at the start. This is a considerable early firepower, which matches only sturmpioneere + grens. But what if your enemy goes 2 volks + at gun? Or 2 shwimms + volks? Your chances are not so high. What I mean is: "There should not be any 'universal' tactic for any doc, the wisest thing is to act accordingly to what happens on the battlefield." Of course sometimes you will just get unlucky, but that's the only way to learn - from the experience. Certainly not from some abstract pieces of advice, far away from actual gameplay.
To be honest, the the real thing is the difference in the micromanaging skill level between the players. Some of us can do wonders with grenades, call ins, hero units like rushing TD or aces, on the other hand some people can't dodge a single grenade, or they turn the back of their tank at the enemy. You could say that inf doc has poor TD force, but if you manage to flank panther with 2 M10, you can still kill it, only thanks to your cunning and micro skill.
So, imo there is no bad set of units. There is nothing wrong in combining 3 units of the same type or 3 different units. The only thing that matters is how you handle your troops.

Of course what kwok and hawks said is very valuable and useful, but don't take it as "universal". The beauty of this mod is how variety of options mixes with things that look exactly the same in each and every game. Try to find that out on your own ;).
Here my name is JimQwilleran, my steam name is Karma Police, the previous was Nami~swan, the previous was Illa pulchra esse dicitur. I should pick one for good, shouldn't I?

kwok
Posts: 846
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby kwok » 11 Oct 2016, 17:46

USA - infantry
Great beginners doc to start with, really holds true through all stages of the game so you can always bounce back if you haven't fallen too far. If you want to learn Americans, I say start here and stay here until you get your micro up.
Army composition - mostly balanced, pretty has everything above average but not best, meanwhile staying relatively cheap. The most decision making you'll have is do you want to spend extra for something a little more durable/forgivable.
Micro intensity - low to high, its off map "click to kill" abilities make it pretty easy to not have to get too micro intense. But if you want to really test yourself and bring out the best of USA as a faction, getting micro up will help you win the game a lot faster.
Weakness - The "perception trap" that you can just throw units at the enemy. Buying units regardless of faction and upgrades is expensive. Learn to preserve here while its still relatively forgivable. Inf doc also doesn't have the "best of the best" so you'll have to do a tad bit of thinking before making a move.

USA - armor
This is like level two USA that will test how well you can compose an army with sub-tier units. Armor doc has a lot of presence and teammate's will very often depend on you to either spearhead to clear anti inf or to follow up after a teammate clears AT. there's a lot of expectation playing as armor.
Army composition - low, pretty much vehicles only. My suggestion is spend the early game investing in a solid sub-tier inf base (use captain rifle call ins and building support units), investing on fuel income, providing foundation for your tanks mid and late game.
Micro intensity - mid to high, depends on what kind of player you are. Micro a single tank and wreak havoc or a well set formation of tanks that create a solid wall of "can't touch this"?
Weakness - lack in a comprehensive unit roster hurts this doc the most. Example, an 88 or pantherturm will ruin your game almost instantly. And before someone says "just send cheap diversion tanks and rush with flames" okay you tell me how much that will cost and with all that spending how much it will cost for the enemy to counter that type of plan.

USA - airborne
This is always either regarded as the most useless or most OP doctrine. I credit it to it's really high skill cap and requirement. There's already a post in this sub forum about airborne, but basically they as a doctrine have everything you need as long as you can keep your eyes open to the situation and not railroad into a build order.
Army composition - balanced, but you will need to choose your doc tree carefully to gain access to what you need when you need it. And don't take the frontline reinforce for granted, it's still very expensive and can cost you a unit you need.
Micro intensity - high, you are working with the most balanced doc for USA with micro skill as a trade off. On top of that, you will make the most strategic decisions. With an assortment of click to kill abilities and specialized units you can handle anything as long as you can think quick and have the fingers to pull it off.
Weakness - skill required. A lot of players choose this as an easy doc people of the front line reinforce and unit assortment, but often get frustrated at how "underpowered" it is. What burdens it that makes it so tough for newer players is the amount of decision making, knowledge required, and high micro intensity

User avatar
Devilfish
Posts: 262
Joined: 26 Mar 2015, 18:51

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby Devilfish » 11 Oct 2016, 18:24

BK isn't that much of a strategic game. Even though such a teamplay as Hawk described is possible, it requires a really high level of cooperation and communication (voice chat) and the team must have an extensive experience with such a gameplay, to actually truly apply these very particular doc combinations/strategies.
Sure, part of such strategies/combos are used, but just in small fragments.

Important is to know the strengths/perks of chosen doc and same for the opponents' docs, to prepare counter-measures. For instance, as terror doc, your main perks are grens improvements, rocket arty and heavy tanks (Panther/KT). Grens get 3 free stg44 after 3CP, meaning you can save muni and upgrade all of them with schrecks. You can get 3-5 of them and there you have a powerful multipurpose army (+fire nades :D). You know you can get Stuka zu Fuss, so if you see your opponent is digging in, you know what to do. On the other hand if you figure out your opponent plays terror, you know he will probably come with Panther G, sooner or later, so you will play accordingly.

In my opinion, game result in bk is based on 40% micro/40% experience/10% tactic/9% luck/1% strategy. By "experience" I mean knowledge of the units, maps, docs, quick reactions/adaptation to opponent's actions and the bk instinct - experience of many games. Very simplified example: Opponent is rushing you with double jeep and rifleman in the game opening, so you know he simply can't have an AT gun, so you get a scout car and completely eradicate him.

I think one can play with any doc against any doc, only some docs are more difficult to figure out a way against other particular docs.Though I admit that some combinations are indeed very tricky, like RE vs TH for instance....

We can enumerate here all strengths and weaknesses of all docs, but best way to get the knowledge is experience. Play for all factions and all docs, and you will get the hang of it, no matter what you play and play against.
"Only by admitting what we are can we get what we want"

User avatar
Warhawks97
Posts: 2150
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 21:45
Location: Germany

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby Warhawks97 » 11 Oct 2016, 18:54

Devilfish wrote:BK isn't that much of a strategic game. Even though such a teamplay as Hawk described is possible, it requires a really high level of cooperation and communication (voice chat) and the team must have an extensive experience with such a gameplay, to actually truly apply these very particular doc combinations/strategies.
Sure, part of such strategies/combos are used, but just in small fragments.


Had a clan with 10-15 players with high access. There we figured lots of such combinations. But long has it been ago.


In my opinion, game result in bk is based on 40% micro/40% experience/10% tactic/9% luck/1% strategy. By "experience" I mean knowledge of the units, maps, docs, quick reactions/adaptation to opponent's actions and the bk instinct - experience of many games.


This... especially the instinct is the most important part. I often did things and moves because i simply "felt" it will work.
But also very important is to know who the enemie is. I am not even talking about his doc, but how he plays. If he is good in large scale well planned attacks, patient or whatever. Like when playing vs kwok, keep pressing on him and never stop with it. He doesnt like the chaos. Thats why he likes 3 vs 3 on 4 vs 4 maps as there is more space and time to think and to prepare traps. But he will most likely move over all defenses and over every passive player. Sukin on the other hand is the most patient one. He simply stays cold as ice. And one mistake from your side and he kills you most likely. Though he often relies as all on a mate that plays RA in case he choosed AB.

And some players can be beaten just by being faster in clicking and controlling more units at once. So its possible to be the attacker with just like 4-5 units while enemie has like 12 or more. So it helps a lot to "study" other players by watching replays over and over again or streams.

Also unusual moves can help. Like when i had games where my opponents had 2 or even 4 snipers and one 37 mm Pak i simply rushed two schwimmwagen and 2 pumas towards. Just risk something from time to time. But that also includes that you must be sometimes ready to lose a unit. I often rushed even heavy US AT guns with two Tank IV´s and winning with both damaged but territory gained. Also i sometimes rushed first with schwimmwagens against heavy AT guns and then attacking with puma or tanks. Heavy AT guns have bad accuracy vs vehicles like schwimmwagen on the move. If the Pak fails just once the schwimm closes the gap and reveals the AT gun. Thus they lose so much power that they wont penetrate anymore.
That is in particular true for medium AT guns. Those relay a lot on ambush boni to penetrate armor.

Another thing is that most belive they need a defense back up. As allied i would say thats smart. But as axis its often not that stupid to push ones luck. Sometimes you wont gain anything from staying defensively when having just a handfull units. If you think its wise to preserve here i would say its not always true. The allied will outnumber you sooner or later and the few you have get bombed, damaged etc. So push the luck. Thats what i did with BK. Wanna know why with BK? Coz nothing goes above 400 MP actually.... or nothing essential goes beyond that (Tiger is not essential for BK doc). Storms+Ostwind for example.... loved that. Off map mortar cleaned AT, storms had enough schrecks to counter armor and Ostwind did an incredible havoc to emplacments and infantry. Just bring leader squad sneaky into pos, initial mortar on crucial enemie unit and then rush in with stroms..... the Blitzkrieg ability for instance lets your unit throw nades as many as needed+ schreck shot after each grenade barrage (3 nades one barrage) and breaks also suppression.

And by being that aggressive, playing with few medium cost units you will also have low upkeep..... all you need is to fall in love with chaotic (long) games. Chaotic games with lots of cover options is loved by stormtroopers (always hiding, schrecks, stg.... havoc with not too much skill), Luft inf (def boni+ vet+ great weapons results in havov, bloodsheed and nonstop skirmishing the enemie), Panthers and also def doc (inf with def boni).

At the other hand Armor doc and US might also love the chaos. Just inf should not end up in too chaotic games or panther and stg units demand a lot of blood from your side.



Very simplified example: Opponent is rushing you with double jeep and rifleman in the game opening, so you know he simply can't have an AT gun, so you get a scout car and completely eradicate him.[/b]

yep..... I prefered games where battles were nonstop raging. That way i knew what enemie has, has lost, has spend and could this calculate every players ressources in my head.



but best way to get the knowledge is experience. Play for all factions and all docs, and you will get the hang of it, no matter what you play and play against.



yeah.

kwok
Posts: 846
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby kwok » 13 Oct 2016, 09:31

I think Illa's assessment is the truest and most accurate assessment so far. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop writing. I'll still provide my opinion to satisfy my ego.
Meanwhile, I greatly disagree with Devilfish on a couple points. But I will probably get to that later.


British - RAF
Probably the most popular brit doc because of its fluff. It's a slow starter with low early game power, is okay mid game, but late game is absolutely punishing. One tip about playing RAF, one of the best units available for Brits in general is the Recce and its insane sight plus durability. Similar to Airborne doc and among british docs in general, RAF is probably the most versatile making it an extremely power doctrine to play in 1v1's or "team carry" scenarios. That doesn't meant there are tradeoffs though.
Army Composition - Balanced, like AB for USA it's a well balanced doctrine as long as you can make the right doctrine choices to field the units you need when you need them. There is a lot of decision making, so I recommend to not commit to a particular branch unless you are covered by your teammates or have found a way to cover yourself.
Micro Intensity - High, at least until you can get into the late game where your soldiers are extremely durable and you have many "click to kill" ability options available through doctrine unlocks. At that point, you're more or less and unstoppable force walking through the park.
Weakness - Early game you lack any extra advantage than any other brit doctrine can have and need to rely a lot on teammates. Your build order might be a bit rigid in order to hedge against potential enemy openings. Brits really don't have very strong opening moves in general except to get AT to hedge against car rushes (if you don't and they do get cars, you're screwed. if you do and they don't, you might have to fight harder with weaker units but at least you can survive the early game)

British - Royal Engineers
Probably second most popular doctrine for Brits in PvP because of how forgiving the doctrine can be (as long as the doctrine is played right). The durability of the units, resource bonuses, and unit costs really don't make decisions that hard. Often times you'll find the only resource you'll be short in consistently is manpower. RE are weak early and extremely strong mid game, start to taper off and get harder to play as the game drags on. Biggest tip: DONT FORGET THE DOC IS MORE THAN JUST CHURCHILLS! Using base brit units are really how you can cover the doc's weaknesses.
Army Composition - pretty balanced, the inf are naturally strong as Brits, I'd recommend not treating the engineer glider like RAF gliders but there are some players who do use them like shock units. The churchhills are definitely strongest mid game, but become less powerful as axis can field stronger AT and tanks. Churchhills make great line pushers but lack the damage you'd find in most other tanks. mainly because their best range is mid to close but the churchhills have no gap closing mobility except to pray nothing penetrates as they crawl up towards the target. Lastly there is some light arty available for special situations, not as plentiful as other docs but it's enough to be considered "balanced" in my books.
Micro Intensity - Medium, RE is more about strategy than micro, imo. The units are too slow to truly micro except maybe the shock royal engineers which is even more micro intensive than average because they lack hold ground (soon to change) and are extremely squishy. The real micro comes in when you use smaller cars like staghounds and daimlers which really help for things like hunting mobile arty and mortar cars (i really don't know why more players don't do this...). But, that isn't far different than other factions.
Weakness - panzer shreks and overconfidence. Pre 4.8.3 patch, people complained about how useless RE was. then churchills were buffed and people complained how strong they were because no one was use to having any other AT tactic other than plopping a simple pak firing the front of a tank. since then people have adapted and found other ways of killing the churchhills, so don't get over confident with you durability. Use it well and strategically, pair it with your teammates, and you will be an amazing supporting player where people will start calling you out for being OP. The most glaring weakness is just lack in mobile differentiation from other factions/doctrines.

British - Royal Artillery
Probably most popular among compstompers I think? I always see people who play compstomp and jump into PvP either play RAF or Arty. Personally, I think the supercharge mortar/arty rounds is one of the strongest doc techs in all factions/doctrines (first place being recon abilities). This doc is all about playing strategic distance. Keep an enemy out of their striking range while throwing your long range at them. Biggest personal tip is to not build a static defense. You'll just get recon'd, counter-bombed, and have no ability to strike out against their long range units (more on dynamic defense here viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1153). This is tough because British lack mobility as is, but it is even more of a reason to make sure you keep shuffling your defenses so that your opponent can't lock on to you. Choose mobile mg's and AT over the emplaced, decide to go on the offensive not to kill but purely to keep the enemy at bay, moves like that will protect your mortars and arty to do the real damage dealing. Use the spotter. Long ago, the dingo couldn't camoflauge and the spotter was the only invis recon Brits had. Spotters are cheap alternatives to the dingo.
Army Composition - Low, relative to all other doctrines and factions there really is not any unit variety gained from artillery doc except more artillery. Arty doc doesn't even have the best arty units, it just has a lot of it. Quantity over Quality.
Micro Intensity - Low to High, so this is really team dependent. Without teammates, you need to cover yourself with non-doctrine units, carve out a spot for your artillery, then finally secure the area for artillery before you can even think about building artillery/mortars. With non-specialized units from base British roster, you will probably have to push your micro skills to the limit to reach an arty ready foundation. If you can have teammates to keep the enemy at bay so you can just deal the damage from afar, you're fine. Annecdote: On that god awful map halfaya pass, I spent 70% of a game alt tabbed while my arty was on cooldown, only to come back to play to fire off more rounds. Came out with the highest score, doubling the second place highest score, least amount of losses, and wasn't even actively playing the game. This is an extreme scenario given circumstances... but just an example of how low micro intensity could be.
Weakness - Highly strategic and micro dependent to really use the doc effectively. You get no special frontline units and have to play with only a few non-doc roster units because of British high manpower costs. Repeated attacks where you at least win cost-cost against an arty doc player will eventually break them. As an arty player, make sure you always win cost-cost or you'll keep falling behind.

User avatar
sgtToni95
Posts: 230
Joined: 04 May 2016, 09:50

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby sgtToni95 » 14 Oct 2016, 17:08

About arty doc (not sure if this should be a new topic), what do you guys think about "fake howitzer" unlock in tech tree? I'd like to know if anyone has ever made one of those and if it was of any utility. Imo that's the only tech tree unlock of any doctrine which does not have an offensive/defensive/buffing/fighting unit/building unlock utility and it's the only "unit" in the game i have literally NEVER seen used. I can actually understand why since, if it's to create an expendable target for enemy arty, that won't work because enemy arty shots howitzers emp only after seing them shooting (expecially from the fog of war of second lines where they're built). Couldn't it be more useful (since now that's almost totally a waste of CP) to excange it with the possibility of firing a smoke salvo/smoke line barrage (similar to that of command cromwell tank) from howitzers and priests?
I know this could affect balance somehow by offering good defensive cover to own and allies units, as well as offensive by blinding enemy defences, so i'm just trying to get other players opinions before considering suggesting this switch in the "balancing and suggestions" section.

kwok
Posts: 846
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby kwok » 15 Oct 2016, 18:45

They can act as decoy for grenades, decrew, and capture units. Put them near your real arty units and if they come for an attack they will be confused which to take, like the monte cup game.

Wake
Posts: 301
Joined: 07 Dec 2014, 17:22
Location: USA

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby Wake » 16 Oct 2016, 01:47

kwok wrote:
Wermacht - defense

I have too many open secrets here that I revealed through the forum not in explicit topics. may become irrelevant soon though... Def doc is getting a nerf for the abuses that not many people do. First personal tip: this is not an arty based doctrine.


Are you referencing the medic bunker + volksgrenadiers + MG34 + defensive cover bonus tactic?

For those that don't know, volksgrenadiers with an MG34 are very deadly, and volksgrenadiers are extremely cheap to reinforce, costing only 22 MP (cheaper than riflemen, who cost 24 MP to reinforce). When put in cover with the defensive doctrine cover bonus, they become very hard to kill. If a player builds medic bunkers, then he gets free volksgrenadiers every time he loses 6 men, which makes this tactic very hard to stop. Using tanks is one way, though if a defensive doc player has lots of munition, they can use give panzerfausts to all their volksgrenadiers, which are very deadly to all allied tanks.
Image

User avatar
JimQwilleran
Posts: 977
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 15:05

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby JimQwilleran » 16 Oct 2016, 01:58

Wake wrote:For those that don't know, volksgrenadiers with an MG34 are very deadly, and volksgrenadiers are extremely cheap to reinforce, costing only 22 MP (cheaper than riflemen, who cost 24 MP to reinforce). When put in cover with the defensive doctrine cover bonus, they become very hard to kill. If a player builds medic bunkers, then he gets free volksgrenadiers every time he loses 6 men, which makes this tactic very hard to stop. Using tanks is one way, though if a defensive doc player has lots of munition, they can use give panzerfausts to all their volksgrenadiers, which are very deadly to all allied tanks.

The best way to counter heavy volks spam is to make units that do well in long distance like CW section or lee enfield commandos/AB 101, inf doc rangers + sniper support. This is very easy way to vet your elite units. So I guess that mindless volks spam can actually help your enemy ;P. If you don't get overwhelmed of course :D.
Here my name is JimQwilleran, my steam name is Karma Police, the previous was Nami~swan, the previous was Illa pulchra esse dicitur. I should pick one for good, shouldn't I?

kwok
Posts: 846
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby kwok » 16 Oct 2016, 03:28

I disagree with illa actually, that only helps the volks spam because the def bonus makes them hard to kill so your vet rate will be low. meanwhile, while you kill them slowly, they get time for their medics to make MORE volks, you'll eventually be overwhelmed.

To me, the best counter is to mortar the fuck out of them and mg lock them.. They'll always be crowded around since the opponent has to extra micro all the units. The mortar will kill them faster than the medics will work. Meanwhile, get ready to satchel rush and demo the bunker or just bomb the hell out of them.

User avatar
JimQwilleran
Posts: 977
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 15:05

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby JimQwilleran » 16 Oct 2016, 13:42

Hmm, idk in my last game I had vet 5 CW section only from fighting volks ;). Yea but "mortar them to hell" actually sounds better :D.
Here my name is JimQwilleran, my steam name is Karma Police, the previous was Nami~swan, the previous was Illa pulchra esse dicitur. I should pick one for good, shouldn't I?

User avatar
Warhawks97
Posts: 2150
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 21:45
Location: Germany

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby Warhawks97 » 16 Oct 2016, 19:40

Depends on how you use them. Sure, many run mindlessly arround. But use them along with officer and stay at range. And when one volks squad gets too close to allied units then retreat that one while the one behind the first continues to shoot the enemie. Its more one volks screens the other and keep skirmishing. That way, with like 3 units doing crossfire or covering fire they will also kill expensive CW units as those are too costly to do the same. And at the end you simply overwhelm enemie with volks while res could be saved to support them with jagdpanzers, grens and stupa/arty etc.

Sure.... vet 5 CW unit vs vet 0 volks etc.... sure you win. But seen vet 2-4 volks with lmg, two squads, both in cover and officer? They often even shred AB´s and commandos that are trying to close in.

And just dont underestimate the cover enhancment upgrade def doc has. The bonuses are huge. I dont even think that there is any allied unit that can match up with volks with lmg dps in ranged combat. Only commandos with two lmg´s. And the low health pool is balanced out with that cover enhancment upgrade. And that multiplied with literally endless squads. So the only way then to beat them is to close in or to use kind of heavy indirect fire like arty and mortars. But as def doc could held res in reserve (free units+ cheap reinforce cost) you might also face def doc arty that bashes mortar and those indirect fire units threatening the volks. Sure, a lot is also depending on map but in a flat terrain with craters and bunker as central point with volks all arround it will get extremly hard.

Smart guys like tiger may come arround now "but AB with vet boost+ hq squad+ air reinforce+1941 rifle" etc will beat them. But keep in mind that you can decide to play based on volks from right the beginning. So you can start vetting them up much earlier. Untill AB or or commandos are available you can have several volks squads with vets and upgrades already. So untill AB or commandos become competetive there can be already several vet volks arround.


All that has to be kept in mind.

User avatar
Leonida [525]
Posts: 136
Joined: 26 Jun 2016, 09:25

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby Leonida [525] » 06 Nov 2016, 10:20

Thx for all your suggestions and tips, i think is useful also seeing your discussions. Yeah every situation in the game is different and there is nothing only "mechanical" but anyway i think this can help new players together with replays . (Ps Kwok: waiting your tips for PE if you want and have time to :D) Thx

kwok
Posts: 846
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby kwok » 10 Nov 2016, 04:34

Ahahaha, thanks for reminding me Leonida. I'll work on that now.

Panzer Elite - Luft
On hold because of balance changes. The meta here is really susceptible to change.

Panzer Elite - Tank Hunters
You want tanks with pure raw power at a spammable rate? Look no further, this doc can unstoppable alone if left unchecked and used by a really skilled player. Everyone says that it's only good for tank hunting, but the secrets that hide in this doctrine... Put it this way, for doctrine that only hunts tanks, you'd be surprised how I've easily destroyed one of the top most famous RAF players using TH doctrine. How?
Army Composition - Balanced, with an extremely high advantage in tank hunting (naturally). I'm going to say "balanced" for most of PE because frankly, just base faction they really have anything they need to adequately handle any situation. TH are particularly balanced because beyond their anti-inf standard units, tank hunters can become infantry snipers with the marked target and other buffs that can be stacked on them. Meanwhile, as long as a TH is supported, inf will have a hard time micro'ing against the tank hunter's impenetrable durability, stacked with the zimmermit coating and commander buffs (possible to change). Having trouble with AT guns? At a certain point, jadgpanzer with a commander and buffs can toe-to-toe a revealed non-vetted 17 pdr at long distance and win (annecdotely) 60% of the time. Don't want to risk it? Hodgekiss are pretty cheap to make and arty is pretty cheap relatively because you don't spend much MU as TH.
Micro Intensity - High to low, if you want to play an aggressive, use marked target a lot, always stay supported game then it will be a high-micro-intense match but you can end it sooner. Want to take it slow and do a steady push with hodgekiss and steel walls? That works too. Just decide and commit to either a tactical or strategic game. Getting caught in the middle can really mess with your general army on-field composition and leave gaping holes.
Weakness - Pretty non-specialized early game. Your good tank hunters with buffs don't come out early, so you'll have to figure out how to survive with base units. Buuut....
BONUS ROUND, PE has such good early game units. One of the things that really holds it back is that PE doesn't have 2 shrecks in their squad, making their offensive AT in the early game somewhat weak. If you want to chance winning an early game with just base units... take the double panzerschreck tree and push the base. Here is a replay where I won a 1v1 against inf doc as TH without using any JP's, hetzers, and I think arty (maybe I can't remember...).
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1200#p13926

Panzer Elite - Scorched Earth
This doc has managed to find every way to kill infantry. Inf on inf? Use snipers and flame grenades. Tank on inf? flamehetzers are just brutal. Indirect? Well... you have a huge variety of indirect fire that really make this doctrine annoying to deal with. If you're losing to an inf based docrtine as scorched earth, you may be too focused on a formula and not adapting because this doctrine really does have almost every anti-inf tool available.
Army Composition - Medium/Low, relative to the other PE doctrines, SE doesn't really have the most straight-forward reliable AT. Most of its powerful AT are fragile enough that if one sneaky AT team gets through you can really have a gaping hole in your formation. Keep those marders, nashorns, and AT guns safe or you're going to have a rough time.
Micro Intensity - High/Low. Like tankhunter, it depends on the style of play. Do you want to take the indirect fire style and just immobilize the enemy with mortars + arty? Then make sure you build a defensible foundation first (this doesn't mean make roadblocks and just sit there where you're predictable. check out my article on defenses viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1153). OR you can take a more micro intense route with flame grenades and base doctrine units for a more tactical experience.
Weakness - SE doesn't have durable AT. You can either depend on a team member or you can really be meticulous in formation with your marders and other tank destroyer units. Don't let those sneak sprinting bazookas catch you!

User avatar
sgtToni95
Posts: 230
Joined: 04 May 2016, 09:50

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby sgtToni95 » 10 Nov 2016, 09:46

What's the mechanic behind the "mark target" ability? Does that increase received accuracy on target significantly? Never used that neither with Re doc

User avatar
JimQwilleran
Posts: 977
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 15:05

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby JimQwilleran » 10 Nov 2016, 15:45

sgtToni95 wrote:What's the mechanic behind the "mark target" ability? Does that increase received accuracy on target significantly? Never used that neither with Re doc

It's super effective imo. When I play RE I always use it with Recce which starts to kill even luft with 2 bullets. Generally I think yes, it increases received accuracy. Also it makes your target seen through fog of war.
Here my name is JimQwilleran, my steam name is Karma Police, the previous was Nami~swan, the previous was Illa pulchra esse dicitur. I should pick one for good, shouldn't I?

User avatar
XAHTEP39
Posts: 204
Joined: 09 May 2015, 12:34
Location: Saint-Peterburg, Russia

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby XAHTEP39 » 10 Nov 2016, 21:33

JimQwilleran wrote:
sgtToni95 wrote:What's the mechanic behind the "mark target" ability? Does that increase received accuracy on target significantly? Never used that neither with Re doc

It's super effective imo. When I play RE I always use it with Recce which starts to kill even luft with 2 bullets. Generally I think yes, it increases received accuracy. Also it makes your target seen through fog of war.

If you marked enemy unit by "mark target" ability, what is the distance of deactivated this ability (marked unit run so far) ?

User avatar
MarKr
Team Member
Posts: 1440
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 19:17
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby MarKr » 14 Nov 2016, 15:17

I don't think there is some "deactivation range". I think the effect deactivates after a few seconds.
Image

User avatar
sgtToni95
Posts: 230
Joined: 04 May 2016, 09:50

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby sgtToni95 » 15 Nov 2016, 14:33

i made quick testings and it lasts 25+ seconds and doesn't have a deactivation range

User avatar
XAHTEP39
Posts: 204
Joined: 09 May 2015, 12:34
Location: Saint-Peterburg, Russia

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby XAHTEP39 » 15 Nov 2016, 16:50

Cool! Thanks for the accurate data !

TalonMeadows
Posts: 1
Joined: 18 Nov 2016, 09:48

Re: Doctrines Tips

Postby TalonMeadows » 18 Nov 2016, 09:52

Leonida [525] wrote:Thx for all your suggestions and tips, i think is useful also seeing your discussions. Yeah every situation in the game is different and there is nothing only "mechanical" but anyway i try mobile slot games here think this can help new players together with replays . (Ps Kwok: waiting your tips for PE if you want and have time to :D) Thx


Of course, every situation in the game is special, so it requires different tips and strategies. Thanks a lot :)


Return to “General Discussions on Strategy and Theory”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest