Changes for the next patch

Talk about CoH1 or BKMOD1 in general.
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Terence's Mouth
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Changes for the next patch

Post by Terence's Mouth »

I noticed how some docs are like forgotten after last patches.
I want to search changes that bring this doctrines back to life.
Some changes that help those doctrines without making problems somewhere else.

Again: I search changes[easy changes(as example: manpower/costs/limits)] that will increase the flow of gameplay and in the end the fun too

I repeat this changes shouldnt create some problems somewhere else but would help the "FLOW of gameplay" and increase the fun.

Some Examples of the Past:A limit of Grille to 1,longer reaload time for Brumbär and less aiming


You guys can write some changes of this type here too if you want but now let me begin:

A sniper of Limit of 1 for all doctrines would help the flow of gameplay realy much because 2-4 Men(snipers) can stop the enemy in a frustrating way that just destroys the flow and the fun.
Increased manpower Income for Sapper doctrine (At the moment Sappers are just waiting and sitting on the as its impossible to make an good offensive if you play vs a player with your same strenght or a better one)
A panther to TH doctrine(maybe not the Panther G because to strong).
Less damge of the turret MG42 of axis tanks(theyre unreal and just destroy the flow of gameplay like snipers do if you dont have vehicles)
Less costs for the Infantry in the Defensive Axis Doctrine(today one 2 Grenadeers come 5-6riflemen from USA, its realy crazy...and makes the doc nearly unplayable if youre not a camp/bomber that lives from his teammates)


That are some easy changes that would help realy much without unbalancing the game, they would balance it.
I just search for easy changes and i think those i wrote here will fit perfectly into the game.After this changes the flow of gameplay and the fun would be increased instead of decreased so why dont take my changes now and put them into the next patch?
Again: If this changes would increase the flow and the fun why you cant pick them and we all see how it works in the next patch.....

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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by kwok »

Another one of these threads huh?

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Warhawks97
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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by Warhawks97 »

RE doc does not need increased MP income rate. Just the CW standard inf and sappers (315 MP for one damn squad) is way too high. So the "Infantry Tanks" (Churchills) do never have inf support unless your teammates provide them. And thats simply crap.

About turret mount MG42 i wouldnt say its tooo strong. The coaxial/hull are crap so the top mount somehow have to make up for it.

The def doc isnt that weak actually. Ask kwok. Thing is people do believe they must go for grens. But in def doc you can go well with lots of grens using lmgs and cover when you have the defensive boost upgraded. That way a single volks squad should be able to fight of two rifle squads.

Basically, when def bonus is unlocked, you can fight well with AT squads and volks squads creating crossfires with many squads using lmg34. Kwok made some good use of it holding ground against inf, AB and RE doc more or less by its own (i just supported with IV/70 to knock the tanks better).

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Eldrak1911
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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by Eldrak1911 »

A sniper of Limit of 1 for all doctrines would help the flow of gameplay realy much because 2-4 Men(snipers) can stop the enemy in a frustrating way that just destroys the flow and the fun.
Increased manpower Income for Sapper doctrine (At the moment Sappers are just waiting and sitting on the as its impossible to make an good offensive if you play vs a player with your same strenght or a better one)
+1

A panther to TH doctrine(maybe not the Panther G because to strong).
Well, yes but no. There is a panther already, a Tank Hunter one. This doctrine is for Th, so no.

Less damge of the turret MG42 of axis tanks(theyre unreal and just destroy the flow of gameplay like snipers do if you dont have vehicles)
Could be replaced by an mg34, could be a way to fix this.

Less costs for the Infantry in the Defensive Axis Doctrine(today one 2 Grenadeers come 5-6riflemen from USA, its realy crazy...and makes the doc nearly unplayable if youre not a camp/bomber that lives from his teammates)
That's true, but usa is meant to have a big army, not an elite army, just a big army, so that's logic. But a buff for the infantry could nice, same price, but some better stats.
Hey, i'm a bat, man !

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by Sukin-kot (SVT) »

I agree that TH, Def and Sappers are outsiders currently, but easy way of buff exists only fot TH doc (adding tanks), but devs do not want it for some reasons.

RE is very strange doc itself, every unit has veeeeery narrow purpose, thats why in order to launch your own assaults you need like 10-12 units, which you never able to get. Maybe we can drop some unit costs, for instance: m4 sherman with tulip costs 400 (!) mp, a tank with no HE rounds and even no turret mg, it can easily cost 300 mp, sappers and royal sappers shall cost 250 and 350 mp, their combat value is absolute zero, only repairing and building, Arty Churchilll to 400 MP. Also was suggested to move spread arty barrage from Arty to this doc.

Def, well, I dont have any ideas here, since flaks got nerfed there are only a few things in this doc which are worth getting: Grille\Stupa, med and rep bunkers which you can build up fast and .... I wanted to mention grens with def bonuse but storms and terror grens with their abilities are still better. Back in the days def had ultimate defence set with powerfull flaks and bunkers with perma MG's, now it have lost it's benefits and needs some renewing because doc really looks unsightly in compare to bk and terror.

Regarding snipers, I wont mind to test it, right now SE and Luft have only single sniper available and that feels ok. I agree that when somewhere in Goodwood field seats 6 snipers it is way too off and you cant aproach with inf at all. Also some players abuse tactics which I hate so much, just seath with 2 snipers, mortar and paks doing some frags and going directly for SP/Panther G/Tiger, this will also rise the value of elite inf like commando and luft, since they wont have such high casualties cause of snipers anymore ( that is also a reason why it feels so much better to play with terror grens or inf rangers, effeciency is not much worse, but you dont suffer because of snipers so much )
Last edited by Sukin-kot (SVT) on 30 Jan 2016, 01:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by Sukin-kot (SVT) »

Warhawks97 wrote:Basically, when def bonus is unlocked, you can fight well with AT squads and volks squads creating crossfires with many squads using lmg34. Kwok made some good use of it holding ground against inf, AB and RE doc more or less by its own (i just supported with IV/70 to knock the tanks better).


That still only looks only funny, imagine when player choosing WH doc. Son, this is BK doc, here you get badass invisible infantry with own unique abilities, truck and officers, well known Tigers, Ace, Panthers, AA and inf basher in one face and ability to trade ammo for fuel and MP, also you can spam medium tanks and call them off map if you dont have fuel, than; this is Terror doc, you get cool ass King Tiger, rocket arty, Panther G, grens with one of the best weapon in game for free, fire nades, small nuke - V1 and firestorm; and this one is Defence, here you can get a single bonuse for your standart inf, bunkers, bunch of useless emplacements and single Grille\Stupa.

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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by kwok »

I bet I can give a reason why big maps will solve flow better than any of these original suggestions.
1. Snipers
On a big map, snipers lose a lot of power because they don't dominate the entire goddamn map. They become expensive precision damage and sector control with the trade off of capping power, which becomes a huge trade off because capping power is a lot more important when there are a lot more territories. There is no need to limit a sniper on a big map. When I've played big maps, most players don't even get snipers because of the capping power trade off and the higher power of mobile units like jeeps and scout cars (which surprisingly are still NOT that OP yet because they have so little capping power themselves).

2.RE doc
Not a big map solution but more of a idea. Isn't RE supposed to be a defensive doctrine anyways? Why make the offensively efficient? If you want to talk about "well-rounded vs specialized" and your ideal is "all docs well rounded" then I would totally agree but that idea has been firmly and repeatedly rejected. Side note, it's funny that only a couple of months ago people talked about how OP RE doc is now, but since then there have been no changes but churchills are no longer OP but in fact "lack offensive capability".

3.Panthers to TH
Okay, this one is not about big maps either, but I honestly think the reason why TH "sucks" is because no one plays it right. Maybe it's the expectation that Axis need to be well-rounded so people just play TH doc SOOOooo wrong. This goes back to the "well-rounded vs specialized" discussion though. Tank hunter does AMAZING and almost TOO well at hunting tanks. Actually, if I'm not facing RAF or Airborne doc, I would choose and be pretty successful at playing as TH (yes even against the "OP INF DOC". Why? Because arty is normally not a strong counter to tanks, especially the mega buffed, zimmermitbullshit jadg-tanks).

4.Mounted MG's on Tanks
This one... I'm not sure if I agree or disagree except that I know for a fact that such strong tanks will lose their power dramatically on a large map because a large buy on a single unit is a lot more difficult decision (again going back to the same reason why snipers are not that big of a deal on a large map). Will it need rebalancing AFTER trying things on a larger map? Maybe maybe not, but no one is willing to try it seems so it's hard to say if it's balanced or not.

5. Def Doc cheaper inf
Uhh... volks???? SOOO CHEAP AND SO STRONG. I've got a replay where I basically 1v3 with just volks on goodwood (ask Warhawks he was there). People just don't play Axis creatively. A bigger map, more uber volks? Wow, I doubt even Inf doc would be able to keep up... You'd be able to lock down so many sectors with invincible volks, you'd need a full 600 munitions and maybe max limit 105's to bomb those rats out. Grenadiers are the "extra kick" I'd put my saved manpower into to make more targeted operations while I use volks for the main line.

A big reason why I hardly participate in forum talks anymore is because these threads keep popping up. And I've constantly given a solution that no one wants to even try. Instead people go to devs to fix their own problems rather than either changing their own strategies or even environments they play in. No one is forcing you to play big/small maps, but it's a little bit hypocritical to blame balance on nit-picked things (HA even maps ironically. "eww this map is so allied favored. this is such a bad map. do a different map. oh the game unbalanced and allied favored." Maybe it's the goddamn map that you chose or the strategic decisions you made that sucks) when you don't try to find solutions yourself.

Fuck. Rant over. Sorry. You guys are awesome people as friends, but jeezus the complaints that come remind me of middle school sometimes.

EDIT: HEEEEYYYY warhawks gave me cred for my mega volks use! Thanks hawks!
True story, I took a base once with only volks, a LT, and smoke once.

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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by Sukin-kot (SVT) »

@Kwok

Gameplay on big maps is absolutely different and feels simply boring to 90% of the people, the whole game turns into "find where is no AT and exploit it" mode, because it's impossible to cover all map so most of the time it looks way too stupid, just running arround without good fight, like particular territory have been recaptured several times without a single shot, because everytime somebody had stronger unit and other one simply retreated, then returned with better unit. Also you always can retreat without fear to loose, hence no desperate fights for evey square meter of ground = no fun.

I remember when we played 1v1 with you on a hill 4v4 map (RAF vs BK) and it was so fucking boring, for 30 minutes we shot 15-20 bullets maybe, it was exactly like I explained above, I rush your inf with recce on one part of the map, you retreat, return with Puma, I retreat my Recce, atack you with Infantry with some AT support, you retreat your Puma, return with storms, I retreat again and etc. All this looks like joke game parody called "retreat simulator".

About RE, I always though that it was supposed to exactly an offensive doc but with very specific style which be like "slow push with mobile defence" at least most of the features of this doc speaks for this: reinforcing near tanks, glyder with engeniers, cheap but rather weak emplacements (excluding 17p), digging tanks. Thats how i1mpulse tryed to play it in old times, that looked nice and what is more important, so fresh in compare with other docs tactics, but as I already pointed, you have to seat for 20 minutes without high casualties in order to prepare good assault, but even than, loosing 1 unit can ruin everything.
Last edited by Sukin-kot (SVT) on 30 Jan 2016, 02:10, edited 2 times in total.

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Terence's Mouth
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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by Terence's Mouth »

The snipers in the moment are just bullshit, all people now build more than 4 snipers in their team its just boring and anoying.

And kwok better middleclass than kindergarten, i bring ideas and changes that will bring 100% a better gameplay and you talk them dead instead of testing them in next patch and talk then.


All of youre experience come from games vs weaker players or something.
Its nonsense telling Sappers Defdoc and TH doc doesnt need a new breath of life.
Last edited by Terence's Mouth on 30 Jan 2016, 02:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by kwok »

@Sukin

Well, that 1v1 was a really extreme example purely to exploit your weaknesses haha. I mean just 1 size up, a 2v2 on a 3v3 map, or a 3v3 on a 4v4 map. Those are worth it. In general, Sukin, you are extremely strong tactically and in micro. I needed to negate that by avoiding you the ENTIRE game. That was MY strategic decision that game. To base an entire opinion on that single game isn't really fair I think. I played a game with Erich once and he blitz me everywhere and stomped me to the ground on that map. It was just non-stop attacks from him everywhere. It was beautiful. It's all about how you play things strategically. The variety of games you can get on a large map is so much more than small maps which play out identically every single fucking time. That's how we got the "terror doc" topic that's also floating in the forum (though I secretly agree that terror doc needs some 2nd looking at. but not to the extent that everyone is making it out to be.)

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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by Warhawks97 »

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:Basically, when def bonus is unlocked, you can fight well with AT squads and volks squads creating crossfires with many squads using lmg34. Kwok made some good use of it holding ground against inf, AB and RE doc more or less by its own (i just supported with IV/70 to knock the tanks better).


That still only looks only funny, imagine when player choosing WH doc. Son, this is BK doc, here you get badass invisible infantry with own unique abilities, truck and officers, well known Tigers, Ace, Panthers, AA and inf basher in one face and ability to trade ammo for fuel and MP, also you can spam medium tanks and call them off map if you dont have fuel, than; this is Terror doc, you get cool ass King Tiger, rocket arty, Panther G, grens with one of the best weapon in game for free, fire nades, small nuke - V1 and firestorm; and this one is Defence, here you can get a single bonuse for your standart inf, bunkers, bunch of useless emplacements and single Grille\Stupa.


Ive seen many guys playing def throughout the years. It got weaker, yes, but its defensive support can be afterall impressie.

It has one of the most powerfull VT (large activation range, Grille makes 6 shots and all 105 and 88 will shoot). The Howitzers cost just 3 CP so you can provide very soon howitzer support. 88 also provide arty barrage.


You can get a bunch of pios and volks which with def boni become quite capabale though spammable. At the end (especially when map is cratered) the survivability of grens is way higher as those of Terror grens (which have the advantage of fire nade and free stgs).

I do think many just got used to do nothing else but spamming bunkers/88 and pios instead making better use of inf with defense boni. So here you can get nice spamable but capable inf backed by howitzers and afterall decent defense. It simply fills also a support role. I mean RA is also more or less pure support. RE doc needs lots of support (if they want inf covering their costly tanks).

And without RA doc its afterall pretty hard playing against def doc, especially on maps like wolfheze etc.


@kwok: RE is not supposed to be defensive:D Its supposed to slowly advance and cracking every defense. So its a defense cracker doc that steamroles enemie positions. But for a very long time and due to old crap churchills the doc got played defensively by spammung emplacments.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 30 Jan 2016, 02:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by Terence's Mouth »

Bring own ideas or changes that will bring 100% a better flow to the gameplay and more fun that we can test them out in the next patch or maybe in another testing patch.


Def doc lives from arty bunkers and teammates work,isnt this boring for the game?
It is, so we need some changes lets search changes instead of talking whats good or what you saw in few games.

I definatly know when you play Def doc vs better players than you, you will have more than 30% less chances than you play terror or bk.

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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by MarKr »

Just a question:
Defence, here you can get a single bonuse for your standart inf, bunkers, bunch of useless emplacements and single Grille\Stupa.
Quite often people complain about "incredible emplacement spam capability" on Allied side. Why are the allied emplacements so useful and these of Def doc so useless?
I mean:
MG nest - US, CW and def doc can build them- iirc the MG nest weapons are very similar to those movable versions so Axis nest should be strongest anyway.
Mortar pit - ok Def doc doesn't have one
"AA" nest - US quad .50cal (AB doc, not Infantry though), CW bofors, Def doc 37mm flak, 88flak (more of an AT emplacement but has AA capability too)
"AT" nest - US 76mm, CW 17pounder; Def doc 75mm PaK, 88mm flak
Arty emplacements - US 105mm, CW 25pounder, Def doc 105mm, 88mm
You also get bunkers which, true no longer have perma MG, but even after removing the MGs, there were people who said stuff like "If you see a bunker in game you can write gg and surrender right away...those things are indestructible." So what's up with that?
Def doc has same emplacement options as Allied docs (well, minus mortar) but 88s have AA, AT, arty and with HE even anti-infantry capacity and can go full 360° which is quite handy. Equivalents of other types of emplacements are pretty similar in performance so how is it possible that for Allies it is so much worth building that it becomes such pain in the ass that people start complaining about it while for Def doc these options are "useless"?

Side note, it's funny that only a couple of months ago people talked about how OP RE doc is now, but since then there have been no changes but churchills are no longer OP but in fact "lack offensive capability".
Funny this same thing crossed my mind too :D.
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Terence's Mouth
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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by Terence's Mouth »

Its not the emplacements i was talking about, only the Units.

I dont like how all emplacements are in the moment, thats why i would welcome a new Anti Emplacement weapon or more satchels for infantry(dont know why some satchels were removed in last patch but i dont remember where too)
The TNT should realy be better vs Axis bunkers in my opinion but in the same time i still can say that Def doc has realy to less Power to fight vs Infantry doc when you dont spam emplacements.
Its a reason why i started to talk about Def doc because i want decrease the camping and increase the offensive (i dont want to make a Offensive doc out of it of course but i think it could be a bit stronger in the fight without Arty/Emplacements.Like sappers too.)

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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by kwok »

Satchels... I cried when that happened. Demo squads really didn't need bundle grenades. But EVERYONE insisted because the "demo squads were useless". Pfft. they were useless because they were being used for anti-inf infiltrators predominately rather than, oh I don't know... DEMOLITIONS? Ugh, most people didn't see the utility in satchels like I did. "You don't miss something until it's gone..."

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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by Warhawks97 »

Terence's Mouth wrote:Bring own ideas or changes that will bring 100% a better flow to the gameplay and more fun that we can test them out in the next patch or maybe in another testing patch.


We got lots recently. I am currently working on my own "test patches" with refreshed cost/stats. But it might take a longer time:P


Def doc lives from arty bunkers and teammates work,isnt this boring for the game?
It is, so we need some changes lets search changes instead of talking whats good or what you saw in few games.


Isnt every allied doc living somehow from teammates support? Ask armor doc when facing TH or 88´s. So you consider armor doc as boring coz it very often relys on mates arty support?

I definatly know when you play Def doc vs better players than you, you will have more than 30% less chances than you play terror or bk.


Terror is simply easiest. Wait, get grens with arty support, start softly with hit and run attacks and vet up grens and get CP´s, role Panther G out and yeah....
BK is fun and allows lots of different ways to play. But generally its simply storms and go into war. They are simply extremly healthy (far most healthy inf out there) and with vet they overrun any defence that isnt backed by mobile units.


But just get a look. The Def doc inf can be fucking strong, especially on cratered maps where you find cover everywhere which makes any of your inf literally immun to most suppression. They rep fast, good sight and you can activate this "fatherland" ability which boosts all inf on your ground. With enough ammo income you can defend points very well with that 125 ammo defensive arty that shreds inf in the area arround the point for sure. Arty support and good sight+bunkers. def doc can help a lot their mates to save ressources for better tanks. And i dont see the need why def doc should be just as capable in offensive as terror or BK. But thing is most players like to have "strong assault options" sooner or later. They all want to be able to ultimately smash their opponents by their own.


The game kwok and i played was vs erich, timay and loki or nami. I had TH doc and a newbie mate got idk what doc. But he was holding long his hill. Officer, 3 or 4 volks squads with triage center to generate more volks, AT squad and a bunker iirc (or maybe not). He got bashed nonstop by inf arty, AA and churchill tanks and repeatedly advancing numbers of AB´s. But those, even with leader squad and air support, never really managed to get close enough to volks.

So we got players as enemies which do play in the "upper league" or how you would call it.


@markr: Good questions :)


@Terence: Note pls, that in late game US inf doc literally gets the emplacments to get forward really and to hold the few meters they took untill reaching axis base. I would highly guess that when inf doc would get some competetive arty (not talking about the off map momentum) that can bust on the long hand defenses to dust. Then people would spend res (MP, fuel, ammo) more into that arty as offensive tool instead of "i will spam more emplacments as my enemie can destroy with his current ammo income".

Def doc at least has defense cracking arty. Grille, 88 and they all fire with VT that can be used by officer over a long distance. So they use their defensives to defend while attacking with inf grille/stupa and even Jagdpanzer IV/A.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 30 Jan 2016, 02:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by MarKr »

It was more of a question for Sukin since he wrote that...

Anyway:
Bring own ideas or changes that will bring 100% a better flow to the gameplay
Also a question here...how do you know it will be 100% better? Not to mention that "better" highly depends on point of view. What you might perceive as better others might see otherwise. This is not meant offensively in any way, it is just interesting how firmly you believe that there is no way these changes couldbe perceived by some people as not better.

I definatly know when you play Def doc vs better players than you, you will have more than 30% less chances than you play terror or bk.
BK is made for team play - even the launcher says "recommended settings 2vs2 or 3vs3" it is not there just for the looks. Some docs are simply weaker against others.
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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by Sukin-kot (SVT) »

Warhawks97 wrote:Ive seen many guys playing def throughout the years. It got weaker, yes, but its defensive support can be afterall impressie.


Not so much anymore, only bunkers are unique, other things can be provided by other docs, in some extent SE can make better defence than def doc, using fixed scout cars, Nashorn, boobys and Mortar bunker.

Warhawks97 wrote:It has one of the most powerfull VT (large activation range, Grille makes 6 shots and all 105 and 88 will shoot). The Howitzers cost just 3 CP so you can provide very soon howitzer support. 88 also provide arty barrage.


2 things

1) In order to use this powerfull VT you need to unlock arty ( 3 CP ), VT ( 1 CP ), Grille ( 6 CP ), Flaks (??)
2) This VT is overkill anyways, it's impossible too use its full power, Walking Stuka, Hummel or 210mm Nebel are able to blow any emplacement and unit in a single barrage. This VT is like shooting ducks with a bazooka.


Warhawks97 wrote:You can get a bunch of pios and volks which with def boni become quite capabale though spammable. At the end (especially when map is cratered) the survivability of grens is way higher as those of Terror grens (which have the advantage of fire nade and free stgs).


Yes, but you dont have any strong units for your infantry support (only stupa maybe, but its different and fails too often).

Warhawks97 wrote:I do think many just got used to do nothing else but spamming bunkers/88 and pios instead making better use of inf with defense boni. So here you can get nice spamable but capable inf backed by howitzers and afterall decent defense. It simply fills also a support role. I mean RA is also more or less pure support. RE doc needs lots of support (if they want inf covering their costly tanks).


Better use of inf with def boni....well, storms and terror grens are still better from my point of view, and they are also backed with arty + tanks. Defence vehicles are all crap more or less, Mobelwagen is a funny box of death, i like to see how it explodes all the time, Jagdpanzer gets blown by 2 upgraded zooks penetration, Pj.39 - no sense, all pe docs can produce it, Elefant - no comments. And defence nowadays is not strong at all, axis dont have endless MP to spam mg42 nests and pak40 emplacements like USA do, Flaks have terrible cost effectivness, because of cut range and HP it can be used only as back up weapon, but you cant spend so much resourses into backup weapon because you wont have units on front than:D I still dont understand why range have been reduced, HP nerf would have been enough, this 85 range + aiming time and actual range in fact becomes 75 ( when facing sprinting infatry or driving tank ).

Warhawks97 wrote:And without RA doc its afterall pretty hard playing against def doc, especially on maps like wolfheze etc.


Not because of emplacements, but vecause of Grille, except CW arty nobody can counter it really, only with Typhoon run maybe.


Warhawks97 wrote:@kwok: RE is not supposed to be defensive:D Its supposed to slowly advance and cracking every defense. So its a defense cracker doc that steamroles enemie positions. But for a very long time and due to old crap churchills the doc got played defensively by spammung emplacments.


Ye, pretty much that.

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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by Sukin-kot (SVT) »

MarKr wrote:Just a question:
Defence, here you can get a single bonuse for your standart inf, bunkers, bunch of useless emplacements and single Grille\Stupa.
Quite often people complain about "incredible emplacement spam capability" on Allied side. Why are the allied emplacements so useful and these of Def doc so useless?
I mean:
MG nest - US, CW and def doc can build them- iirc the MG nest weapons are very similar to those movable versions so Axis nest should be strongest anyway.
Mortar pit - ok Def doc doesn't have one
"AA" nest - US quad .50cal (AB doc, not Infantry though), CW bofors, Def doc 37mm flak, 88flak (more of an AT emplacement but has AA capability too)
"AT" nest - US 76mm, CW 17pounder; Def doc 75mm PaK, 88mm flak
Arty emplacements - US 105mm, CW 25pounder, Def doc 105mm, 88mm
You also get bunkers which, true no longer have perma MG, but even after removing the MGs, there were people who said stuff like "If you see a bunker in game you can write gg and surrender right away...those things are indestructible." So what's up with that?
Def doc has same emplacement options as Allied docs (well, minus mortar) but 88s have AA, AT, arty and with HE even anti-infantry capacity and can go full 360° which is quite handy. Equivalents of other types of emplacements are pretty similar in performance so how is it possible that for Allies it is so much worth building that it becomes such pain in the ass that people start complaining about it while for Def doc these options are "useless"?
.


It's more a question of resourses, alies can build emplacements and maintain nice amount of units as well, but try that with def doc, and after building of 3 mg nests you will seat with naked ass.

"axis dont have endless MP to spam mg42 nests and pak40 emplacements like USA do"

From my previous post. So, you can build some emplacements which are stronger that alied once, but alied once are anoying because they are also covered with endless rifles, shermans and etc. Def doc cant afford this, it either goes for units, or for emplacements. Also 107mm nest which snipes out the entire squads is definately the strongest emplacement out there, it also immobolizes tanks pretty well.
Last edited by Sukin-kot (SVT) on 30 Jan 2016, 02:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Terence's Mouth
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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by Terence's Mouth »

Still i think after buffing Infantry doc and changing terror doc we forgot to change the def doc, the gameplay with it is more boring than RA or Infantry plus most time waitinf for manpower only.
Playing against it can end fast into fighting vs emplacements and artillery only.
I dont like it, so i want something get changed.
If Def doc get some cheaper grens or more manpower income i would think people would play more offensive and maybe stop spamming emplacements.

Thats the only reason why i talk about it, to get more tactical matches instead of bombing camping matches.
I think everybody agrees with me that we play this game for fun and not for frustration.
All my changes i write he into the forum are always because i saw many frustrating bombing camping spamming games...
I cant believe that somebody of you like that.
I search for a way to decrease this but it realy feels like you talk all my ideas dead instead of improving them.


The sappers gameplay is realy boring and camping at the moment, i want to use this doc more times and i think if we make the price of the churchills a little more less than now or increase the manpower icome it would be more attractive but not OP or unstopable.
(you said sappers dont need a bigger manpower income but i realy played now more than 10 games where i saw its weakness)

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MarKr
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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by MarKr »

It's more a question of resourses, alies can build emplacements and maintain nice amount of units as well, but try that with def doc, and after building of 3 mg nests you will seat with naked ass.
Interresting...maybe one of the unlocks could lower the price of emplacements? Or maybe some upgrade for that? Just thinking...

If Def doc get some cheaper grens or more manpower income i would think people would play more offensive and maybe stop spamming emplacements.
Anyone else can see the irony in this? :D Don't you think that it was the original purpose of this doctrine? To secure/fortify captured sectors? Why else would they be given so much static defense in the first place? After all it is called Defensive doctrine.
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Eldrak1911
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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by Eldrak1911 »

If Def doc get some cheaper grens or more manpower income i would think people would play more offensive and maybe stop spamming emplacements.


Pardon me but... Defensive doc is not, at all, means to be offensive. Its name's Defensive doc, that's not for nothing (Burnt by Markr ^^ ). But i agree with that :
I think everybody agrees with me that we play this game for fun and not for frustration.


But the problem here, is more that def doc can do everything (I'm sorry but Elefant is ofensive, Jagdpanzer too, one or two pzr IV to follow after a arty bomb to prepare to field and it's ok).

If we want less arty spam : Bigger maps, and less offensive things for Defense Doctrine, but more defensive things (not arty things).
Hey, i'm a bat, man !

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by Sukin-kot (SVT) »

MarKr wrote:
It's more a question of resourses, alies can build emplacements and maintain nice amount of units as well, but try that with def doc, and after building of 3 mg nests you will seat with naked ass.
Interresting...maybe one of the unlocks could lower the price of emplacements? Or maybe some upgrade for that? Just thinking...[/quote]

Maybe, but that's more a question of upkeep, USA can do so because of supply yard, currently I dont have any good ideas what to change, oh, wait, there is one, this fragmentation nade system, it makes me want to drop out from the match everytime when Im trying to use it.
Last edited by Sukin-kot (SVT) on 30 Jan 2016, 03:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by Sukin-kot (SVT) »

Eldrak1911 wrote:But the problem here, is more that def doc can do everything (I'm sorry but Elefant is ofensive, Jagdpanzer too, one or two pzr IV to follow after a arty bomb to prepare to field and it's ok).


Are you pvp player? Good luck with this tactic:D

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Terence's Mouth
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Re: Changes for the next patch

Post by Terence's Mouth »

Yea buff Infantry doc and other doctrines but forget about Deffensive doc just because of the name... great...

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