Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Talk about CoH1 or BKMOD1 in general.
Tor
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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Tor » 31 Jan 2016, 08:46

8) what about raf jeep?

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Eldrak1911
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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Eldrak1911 » 31 Jan 2016, 09:44

@ Sukin : Me and Tiger are working on it, we have already chosen 8 new maps.

@ Markr, From Tiger :
I am also somewhat disappointed with this recent decisions MarKr posted btw... No cheaper emplaced flak88s or even arty barrage for Luft ones.. only -40MP reduction for Luft Pioneers and more likely better Pershings even without considering cheaper KT or flank speed for Panthers! Not to mention that ACEs yet won't be Vet2 hopefully
(I won't do that twice.)
Hey, i'm a bat, man !

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MarKr
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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby MarKr » 31 Jan 2016, 12:23

What??? I'll tell you something. Since I know Wolf is busy I wanted to save him some time and I went through all these 11 pages again and made basic notes about points people brought up here or atleast those that brought attention of other people. Then I send to Wolf a PM, saying that Tiger's suggestions are all listed in a well-arranged order on the first page of the topic (so no need to list them again in PM) and other ideas from this topic I gave him in the form of the notes I took (as I watch it I probably missed the Vet Aces but it doesn't matter right now). What I posted is Wolf's reaction. It is not my business how Wolf decided in these points or why or why he didn't comment on Tiger's list. Tiger said that what Wolf says goes and now he's ranting how much dissapointed he is again...not that anybody would not see that comming:
Sukin wrote:Oh yeah, we all miss his ''I want this changes!!!!!! Want them!!!! For nonsense reasons which only myself can appreciate, but I WANT THEM. What? It wont be implemented because there are no valid reasons given? Im soooooooooooo dissapointed!!!!!''


Guys, I am really pissed off right now. All that work and time invested to end up being trash talked behind my back? Not worth my time. I decided to quit. The stuff I made for the patch so far will leave with me - as I said, I invested my time to it and for the response I get I feel no obligation to leave it for use.

Sorry, those of you who were looking forward for the new patch, you will have to wait few months longer until Wolf's available again.

Best of luck to all of you.
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Eldrak1911
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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Eldrak1911 » 31 Jan 2016, 12:53

I understand that reaction, and respect it but, there is just one thing that i don't understand, this :
All that work and time invested to end up being trash talked behind my back?
I did not talk about you in any bad manner. And, as far as i'm concern, neither did Tiger, or is there something that i missed ?

I suppose that it doesn't matter now... Thanks for your work for the Bk-Mod Markr, wish you the best possible !
Hey, i'm a bat, man !

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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby kwok » 31 Jan 2016, 18:44

Yes, Eldrak. You missed the perpetual insolence of Tiger1996 and the majority of this community. Talking about disappointment and creating pseudo bipartisanship and politics out of nothing (it's a goddamn game). The amount of harassment the devs get to make/change a game that does not even belong to them is endless.
Here is a link that gives numbers to how much complaining, bitching, and blaming people do in this community.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=624&hilit=appreciation
How many self-proclamations, insults, and condescension are in those numbers? Don't make me guess, because the answer won't be nice. Want to pretend it never existed? Don't make me dig out quotes, because the answers won't be nice.

I've said this repeatedly, balance doesn't drive people away. People drive people away. If anything, people who complain about balance drive people away. (I won't even begin to talk about how balance isn't even that big of an issue, I'm still successful playing ALL doctrines and factions). Shadow and I start BKNC to keep civility within the game. Apparently the forums needed it even more. Now we lost easily the most active developer in the team which means patches, those precious balance fixes, and updates will take even LONGER, people will complain EVEN MORE, and people will continue to leave. This community is dying, and it's not because of balance. It's because of people. This isn't all Tiger's fault, but he is as much of a problem as everyone else. It's all of the assholes, Tiger just so happens to be a really really big one.

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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Yafa » 31 Jan 2016, 19:04

you are talking about insulting and harassment ..but even you are insulting now.
why blaming tiger ? he did not tell mark to leave but mark decided that his own ,tiger is not even participating here anymore !
these are not his ' complaints ' about the balance .... these are a combination of the players complaints.
tiger as far as i know also helped with fixing these bugs and so on along with mark.

you are not a man if you ever manage to insult him now ,since that almost every forum user ( including even you ) participated in this topic which he made as he only wants to improve the game after all and it's our united goal at the end besides that it's what every interested player is wishing or aiming for.

i would thank tiger for his support to this mod instead of insulting him while he is not even here.

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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby kwok » 31 Jan 2016, 19:19

Because I'm answering a question that was asked. I'm sorry your selective hearing/reading made you interpret my writing otherwise. You're right about one thing though, I am insulting Tiger and everyone else. If this topic were a "united" peaceful effort to improve the game, then we wouldn't have lost an important developer.
Call me not a man and say whatever you want of me, but the reality is we don't have a new patch until we fix ourselves first. Let's start with this: not talking about developers and their decisions behind their backs especially when the majority of the developers don't even make the final decision.
Maybe next we can change the way we say things. Let's stop talking about balancing and start all "discussions" with "how do I face ____ in game" rather than starting out with a "debate about balance". This is worth doing because one, we aren't getting balance adjustments any time soon, two, it's how we improve as players before complaining about balance.

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Eldrak1911
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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Eldrak1911 » 31 Jan 2016, 19:35

@ Yafa :
i would thank tiger for his support to this mod instead of insulting him while he is not even here.
He's more here than you think, if he was not, this would have not happend...

@ Kwok : I see. It seems that i got involved, without any will, in something bigger than me... Politics, always politics...
Hey, i'm a bat, man !

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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby kwok » 31 Jan 2016, 20:04

Yeah, sorry Eldrak. There is politics out of nothing. Nature of people I suppose.

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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 31 Jan 2016, 20:20

@Yafa

The reasons why Tiger became hated on forum:

1) Posting and pushing his suggestions in every singly topic, even in those which arent even related anyhow. For instance, the story about 3d zook removal, it was a disaster, replays section, general, balancing and suggestions, the whole forum turned into "open any topic and see what Tiger wants" attemts to make it up to constructive discussions always ended up like "you wont stop me! I will push this things to be implemented! I'm the most important forum member and I'm a friend of devs!" In result many people stopped participating in any discussions and for weeks forum turned into Tiger's and Warhawks PM chat.

2) In many cases his suggestions were just biased, trying to make mod more comfortable for his playstyle.

3) Lack of arguments, instead, repeating the same thing over and over again, or changing one aspect then trying to present it as new idea.

On the other hand he also made a good contribution into the mod in some extent, but this kind of behaviour is just unacceptable, in russian we call such type of person "gag for any barrel", dunno if english translation will represent the meaning.

@MarkR

This is very bad news, though I can understand you, but cancelling the job because one person said something seems not nice to me, forum is very small part of the community and many people out here are still looking forward to a new update so much.

And very important point why community became kinda worse it's because all debats about tactics and strategies have just died here. On old forume I used to upload a lot of different replays where I played different docs and tactics, especially teamplayed games with my old SVT mates with whom sometimes we played really cool expiremental games like triple USA, triple PE, double AB and tanks, and so forth, those could launch some interesting discussions about tactics and stuff. Nowadays forum is nothing but a place where people only express their opinion about particular unit\doc beeing OP, that began when Hawks started to comment every second replay with the words "this is a perfect example why alies suck" then Tiger appeared. Basically if you will look through replays section you will see pretty much that. And what is even more annoying, any your words about particular tactic beeing good then can be used in "i want this changes war", the perfect example is right in this topic, when Tiger copied my words from topic, where I said that CW arty is cool doc and regarding arty its stronger than SE, considering this as Im all in for nerfing arty doc by inflating barrage.

Finally kwok is goddamn right about "perpetual insolence", at this point im also guilty in some extent, but because of some members forum became very strained place, just too much pressure on participators and devs, before forum was a way more calm place, I miss members like mg42slo, veto, tharkun, Ivelios and some others, they were always able to start a good conversation about tactics\balancing without jerking off on corsix numbers and going dramatic.

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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Kasbah » 31 Jan 2016, 20:48

Mark, it's very kind of you to listen to everyone and try to satisfy our requests. In fact, it's the first time since Shadow was here (6 years ago) and probably later Rhur, that there is such a good communication with a dev, but being too kind leads to this. In the end this mod is Wolf's and yours. If people can't understand they can have fun with this game because of your time and work it's their problem.
So do what you feel, mod what you like and enjoy
Last edited by Kasbah on 31 Jan 2016, 20:55, edited 2 times in total.

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Eldrak1911
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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Eldrak1911 » 31 Jan 2016, 20:52

@ Kwok : In fact, i'm the one feeling sorry now...
Hey, i'm a bat, man !

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Tiger1996
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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Tiger1996 » 31 Jan 2016, 20:59

Ok, I guess I now have to type something down here while breaking at this point the last decision I made few weeks ago of not participating at all anymore.
However that posting this comment here atm doesn't mean that I will resume the participation being as active as before in any forum topics specifically regarding the game balance again anyhow... As I only felt in a serious need to type the following;

@Yafa;
Kwok is actually right.. he might have called me an asshole though, but I do get his point after all which is somewhat true. Yet he didn't insult me only btw!

@MarKr;
I guess I have made everything possible to contribute to this mod being grateful for ur precious efforts on changing this game too, as I honestly do have no intentions to make u retire this work or ever quite it.
I do appreciate the decisions u posted as well as I also greatly thank u for it...
Tiger1996 wrote:also thx for the devs (more likely in specific; special greetings to both MarKr and Wolf) for spending their precious time on developing and improving this mod too.

I have realized that asking Eldrak in the PMs to quote this part of my text then posting it here was nothing but a big mistake that I have just committed!

I have nothing personal against u. And here from this place, I ask u to plz return back... Because this was nothing but only a misunderstanding I would say. U probably had to first make sure whether if I have said that myself or not.. I am not saying that this quote which Eldrak posted doesn't belong to me, but probably it wasn't meant that way! Or maybe it reached u in the wrong method.

Again; thanks for ur hard work anyways! U always did the best job.

@Kwok;
Thanks for ur post. I really mean it...

@Sukin;
Yes, in fact... I came here to hopefully become a decent opponent to Hawks.. I just couldn't stand watching him spamming it all alone :P
I used to be here in order to balance it out.

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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Warhawks97 » 31 Jan 2016, 21:51

MarKr wrote:OK so for the things you guys mentioned on the last few pages - Wolf's decisions, so final:
1) Tiger Ace call-in without Storms, but cheaper (-200MP) - yes
2) Swap of Jumbo and Calliope in command tree + price reduction (Jumbo 750MP; Calli 650MP) - yes, but Calli probably for 700MP
3) Luft doc Pios cost drop by -100MP - cost drop yes, but only -40MP; no other changes
4) Changes about Reg5 already mentioned
5) Luft Flak 88 barrage ability - no
6) Option for Luft infantry to pick up weapon from ground - no; apparently there is some bug connected to certain weapons being picked up by Fallies :/
7) HE mode upgrade cost increase while HE/AP mod cost switch decrease - yes; costs not decided yet
8) Jeep and WH Schwimm durability reduction - yes; amount of reduction not certain yet but hopefully to bring it on par with PE Schwimm
9) Weird behavior - WH vehicles in static mode being harder to hit - yes, will be changed to actually being slightly easier to hit
10) Barrage cost changes - no
11) RL deflection damage removal - waiting for clarification (will be decided later)
12) Hotchkiss rockets effectivity increase - yes, will be buffed a little bit
13) Pershing - yes, something will be done (not sure what exactely yet, though :D)
14) M16 HT price - yes; probably 350MP 35F basic, 320MP 30F after reduction
15) US/WH/PE AT HT range reduction to 60; +5 range in camo - no
16) Panther G for TH - no



1. I dont have a mind about that.
2. Good. But i would have liked a armor buff along with cost increase for Jumbo. ATM lots of (especially standard AT stuff) still goes through it like paper. I would have simply taken the Hetzer/Jagdpanzer IV values against Jumbo. ATM certain guns like those of Marder III or certain pak 40 versions go through Jumbo armor just like Tiger and Panther guns do.
3. So 380 MP? Not sure if it will change anything for Luft. Would have been nice to have it cheaper as call in or a drop version for approx 350 MP and 250 if being produced in a building.
4.yep
5. Might not have been even necessary. Lets see.
6. K
7.Interesting. Sounds cool so far. Affecting all HE´s? or only perma HE or also timed? All units?
8. K. Maybe it would have solved something if small arm weapon damage would be modifier with 0.6 modifier instead 0.3 against tp_jeep.
9.Not only WH one, also PE (hummel, geschützwagen, 234/4)
10. Good. Would have been nonsense.
11.
12. K. But i still have a question. is it somehow possible that arty is not always used to counter any tank assault? talking mainly of rocket arty which is always fired into allied tank assaults killing and damaging most of them badly. Especially slow CW tanks are being continousley killed and badly damaged by rocket arty.
What i am talking about is the damage reduction of arty against tanks. Coz not seldomly almost every tank dies to arty of all types but mainly rocket launchers that are being fired into the tanks. For those who atm dont know: Actually all axis tanks have decent or even high reduction of taken damage from artillery which actually makes sense. Nearby arty hits simply dont coz damage to armor as to a soldier whos body would be completely damaged by blast and fragmentations. But i think tanks should behave different and more the direct hits should be dangerous. But atm Tanks die just as easy to arty as infantry inf not easier as they provide a larger target. And that bugs me but probably also others a lot.
13. Armor:D Thats all it needs. Atm even the lower average of axis tanks do pen that tank quite easily.
14. Uh. Isnt it too much? I know its deadly but comon. First hit if anything kills the engine immediatly. And how is it more dangerous than a Puma with 20 mm canon which at distant is even better (vs vehicles). Get it to 325/30 and 300 later. Such high cost again can ruin game dynamics. It might be better to increase cost step by step. Besides 350 is the cost of the puma with 75 mm and MG42 which is really shredding everything but heavier tanks. I dont think that the M16 is anyhow close that or? oO
Also Wakes unit list? AB engis, Stuart, SAS, 251/17? CW sappers (both, combat and normal one)
15. too bad.
16. yeah, wolf made it clear already longer time ago.


Thx for that update:) keep it going:)

Markr you really wanna quit? Oo. Maybe take some time, take a breath and take some time to think about everything. Oh man. What to say.. If you really wanna leave i also whish the best to you. We gotta miss ya.

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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Tiger1996 » 31 Jan 2016, 22:51

So... MarKr, as u can see here I have now just broken my previous decision of not participating anymore only so that u would return as I believe it was obviously nothing but a misunderstanding so far.. would u plz then also break ur decision too and decide to come back? I am simply trying to be as much positive as ever possible; don't let me down :) I also don't really care which points shall be exactly implemented whether not.
As that my whole concern right now is u not to leave plz ;)

Should we make demonstrations??!! :lol:

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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Wake » 01 Feb 2016, 00:26

Without MarkR, this mod's development is done. Wolf hasn't posted since November of last year. The least we could do is show him some more respect for all of the work he's done single-handedly. At the end of the day, he's the one that has to sort through all of these posts, suggestions, whining, and insults, and decide if any changes will be made.
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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Tiger1996 » 01 Feb 2016, 08:05

Alright but from my side so far, I guess I am not responsible now... I am not to be blamed as it's not my fault.. neither it is me who pissed him off.
As it's even on the contrary btw.. I used to strongly support or encourage him in many different ways... He surely knows exactly how I did that and how I was always up to do so anytime.

It is a fact that MarKr was important here, that's why I supported in the first place... But after all he called it some kind of 'bribe' somehow! Not to mention that on the other hand he also simply refused to give me what I have kindly requested for free ONLY because he believed that I somewhat don't 'deserve' it after our recent disagreement which was not acceptable anyhow again.

Still I honestly wouldn't say that this mod is completely dead without him yet...

He will have to come back IF he does really respect u guys as much as u do respect him in return.. it does have absolutely nothing to do with me!

Anyways at the end; I even don't really care anymore.

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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 01 Feb 2016, 16:27

Thanks for the Wounderful work atleast. I know you guys tryed the best and tryed To make the mod comfortable to All Just thanks for your time. Have good life tough mate.
SunZiom: but true is you`re only one man which i know who really know how play PE
CyberdyneModel101: you're unstoppable

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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby XAHTEP39 » 01 Feb 2016, 18:34

deleted.
Last edited by XAHTEP39 on 01 Feb 2016, 20:56, edited 1 time in total.

Armacalic
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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Armacalic » 01 Feb 2016, 18:38

Tiger1996 wrote:Alright but from my side so far, I guess I am not responsible now... I am not to be blamed as it's not my fault.. neither it is me who pissed him off.


There is a proverbial bitchslap coming, I apologize to anyone, other than Yafa and Tiger, who think this is over, but I'm not going to let this guy think he is scotfree.

MarKr wrote:What I posted is Wolf's reaction. It is not my business how Wolf decided in these points or why or why he didn't comment on Tiger's list. Tiger said that what Wolf says goes and now he's ranting how much dissapointed he is again...not that anybody would not see that coming


If you Tiger, in all honesty, think you are not responsible at all now, please, accept this imaginary, symbolic bitchslap to the face from my part.

It's definitely not fair to blame only you Tiger, admittedly pretty much everyone here helped in this little thing. But you should not just declare it's not your fault anymore and walk out while basically calling everyone else here the problem and you the pristine sheet that does nothing wrong.

And if you come here, just to crop any part that has me 'blaming others' and saying something along the lines of "So you admit it was you (and not me) who was the problem." You'll definitely be in my shit list.

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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Cyberzombie » 01 Feb 2016, 18:52

Really sad that you will stop the development for BK. I hope you will change your mind and if you won't I can understand that. Have a good time and thank you a lot for your patience and all your work you put in here!

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Tiger1996
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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Tiger1996 » 01 Feb 2016, 19:00

It's definitely not fair to blame only you Tiger, admittedly pretty much everyone here helped in this little thing. But you should not just declare it's not your fault anymore and walk out

Oh no, u again!

Well.. I used to ignore ur posts recently but... Alright; I would say that it's definitely my fault, it's certainly my fault... Of course it's my fault! Actually there is now absolutely no doubt for me that so surely it was my fault since the beginning that I even ever managed to provide any kind of support here in any means.
That's the only thing I am blaming right now to be honest...

Armacalic
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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Armacalic » 01 Feb 2016, 19:17

Tiger1996 wrote:Sarcasm and irony


That you donated money doesn't mean we have to respect you. Acting in a respectful manner is what'll get you respect and people not getting angry with you. No, you have not been respectful for the most part when dealing with people, no, you don't get to say you are.

Your support has been just as big as almost anyone else here that isn't me, I've barely started speaking until recently after all. But your support is not bigger than anyone else, not even if you forked money. Donating and saying you did or having someone say you did is only you trying to make yourself look good, it would work, but you don't act the part more than half the time. So please, think about what you're saying, and who you're definitely insulting by ignoring, twisting words or mocking.

Incidentally, welcome to my personal shitlist.

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Tiger1996
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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Tiger1996 » 01 Feb 2016, 19:36

That you donated money doesn't mean we have to respect you.

I didn't say that.

Acting in a respectful manner is what'll get you respect and people not getting angry with you. No, you have not been respectful for the most part when dealing with people, no, you don't get to say you are.

Quote to me plz where I ever 'insulted' anyone, in fact; I have always only been insulted by others...

Your support has been just as big as almost anyone else here that isn't me, I've barely started speaking until recently after all. But your support is not bigger than anyone else, not even if you forked money.

How would u even know about something like this??!! I never mentioned here how much I donated.
But alright.. for the first time I am going to say it here... Just to show u how wrong u r.
20+20+20+15=About 75 dollars in total.. I doubt anyone was so lavish to pay anything close, and btw... They were not all to be considered as donations. These were all given as support.. but supporting doesn't only mean a donation!

Donating and saying you did or having someone say you did is only you trying to make yourself look good, it would work, but you don't act the part more than half the time.

There are those who hate me always... Those who support me always and those who support me from time to time only.. and those who hate me from time to time only as well as those who are always neutral.

So please, think about what you're saying, and who you're definitely insulting by ignoring, twisting words or mocking.

Ok, finally now I can already guess who u really r... But I always watched my words btw.. I never went off the manners line.

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Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Butterkeks » 01 Feb 2016, 19:54

Sad to see you go Markr :(
Well, thank you for your hard work with this mod and good luck with whatever you'll be doing now!

Armacalic wrote:There is a proverbial bitchslap coming, I apologize to anyone, other than Yafa and Tiger, who think this is over, but I'm not going to let this guy think he is scotfree.


I'm with you Armacalic.

Tiger1996 wrote:Alright but from my side so far, I guess I am not responsible now... I am not to be blamed as it's not my fault.. neither it is me who pissed him off.


This has to be a joke. It simply has.

After nearly half of the community stated that they will leave the foums because they simply don't want to deal with you anymore, you now even managed to insult a developer that much that he's also leaving because he's simply fed up.

Tiger1996 wrote:Your support has been just as big as almost anyone else here that isn't me, I've barely started speaking until recently after all. But your support is not bigger than anyone else, not even if you forked money.


This quote (originally by Armacalic) simply wants to say the following:
Your constant demand of respect because you are "the best bud of the devs", who will "watch your topics with a special interest" and also "will ban anyone who will start pissing you off".
Your constant demand of respect because the last patch "was basically your work all alone" because you published some lists with what you think needs to be changed.
Your demand of things that need to be changed (*cough* Flank Speed for Panther/ALS earlier for Tier *cough*) even after it got denied by devs a hundred times.
Your constant demand of respect because "you are discussing with the devs themselves and they always seek for your advice"

and so on.
Armacalic, I hope I didn't interpret it wrong here, that's how I saw your sentence and how I see Tiger's activities here.

Armacalic wrote:It's definitely not fair to blame only you Tiger, admittedly pretty much everyone here helped in this little thing.

Yes. But you, Tiger, were simply the main actor in this play.

But congrats.
I always said that you will kill the mod, Tiger1996.
Now you have managed to do so.
I hope you are happy now.


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