Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

[Yafa]

again be carefull. CW inf that is boosted by lieutenant and storms that are boosted by leader squad do have "tp_inf". "PE grens have tp_inf_solider" which is often better. Luft inf has if i am not mistaken "tp_inf_airborne" that also offers some advantages.

it's just too lame that most axis infantry inculding even the regiment five all get suppressed instantly by shermans while the 82nd airborne ,the cqb or infilteration rangers aaand commandos can totally neglect enemy mg42s by default with the fire up ability or commando smokes ... that's why some players sometimes might not feel the power of axis mgs !

The WH officer strike is deadly is fuck

i am not expert enough as you know .... but i think all off map mortar strikes are same in strength and don't forget that it's already suggested for the airborne spotters to have crawling ability like stormtroops

drop the cost of 150 nebler and calli rocket barrages a little bit.

earlier cheaper sherman calliope ... and now also cheaper barrage too ?? not sure

Again cost are based on damage. Just axis pay 75 ammo (60 with ammo HT) to get 250 range but therefore no need for CP unlock (except for the HT). CW needs to pay more CP´s to get priest with long range.

i thought players were comparing priest to hummel as many believed it's even better ,how you are comparing it with wespe now !!!!

Why 50 ammo for 75 and 88 mm which deal less damage than 105 by far?

i think the goal was to reduce arty after all ,that's why no cheaper nebels but more expensive 88 barrage and more expensive priest barrages etc. i can see their barrage cost like howitzers currently !! even cheaper ....

Nope. You cant just compare both 1 to 1.

yes you can't compare them at all ,that's why firestorm can't cost more than this infantry doctrine deadlyy barrage !

Tank IV E is the stubby in def doc?

E is available for most axis doctrines

P.S this misleading off topic trash on the first page should be cleaned up i think

[Warhawks97]

Yafa. Puh...

1. Lame HMg42? well... if you use anti suppression sprint (which only 82nd and infiltration ranger have at default) you get shred instantly. The Axis inf also removes suppression with vet 3 sprint. Sprint in general reduces suppression. So use sprint with standard gren squad before you get into mG range and you get easily into nade range. Frontalrushing allied HMG is easy with mid game inf. Allied HMGs can kill volks. The Axis HMG shreds lot faster and even through smoke it kills when enemie comes into nade range.

2. Did you ever use them all? i did... very often. The Stormtrooper mortar off map is my most important one. It often initiates my assaults. Its also the main killing ability of my command squad. After the first hit the strikes follow up quickly and dense.
The Officer has the highest strike density and is different. Its not really a mortar strike. Its more like dozens of little rockets dropping down from the sky.

3. But Maultier can be cheaper although its 0 CP, half the MP cost and with higher rocket damage and fieldable in mid game already? weird

4. Comparing 150 mm arty with up to 600 damage with 105 that has 335 damage is just dump. sorry but thats how it is. I mean there is a reason why military divided medium arty (105) and heavy arty (120-150 mm). They simply serve different purposes. And fact is that a single Hummel strike delivers a huge ammount more damage. The max possible damage per hit of priest vs axis tank is 251-252 damage. The max possible damage per hit of hummel vs allied tank is 400-600. There is nothing to discuss about, its a hard fact.
And i do compare priest with wespe coz i can. Booth have 105 shells, similiar rof, CP´s and cost. The wespe is becoming a very decent sniper with vet as well. Every howitzer needs vet to become a sniper.
So no. Every general would call you crazy if you would start comparing heavy with medium arty. A firestorm on 17 pdr pak or emplacment that kills the crew/weapon quickly and the path for Panther is free. Inf doesnt have something that would almost be an instant one once it passes a defense.


5. The barrages cost got upped already in 4.5 or 4.6 (or 4.7). The main job of arty is to kill defenses. And atm we already have the issue that emplacments and stuff are spammed faster as arty can destroy them. On maps with very high MP float but low ammo (check some 4 vs 4 maps) its hard enough to get the necessary ammo for the arty to crack the defense. Any barrage cost increase would be fatal for the game dynamic.
And the cost of barrages is in line with the damage. So increase one 105 barrage cost would also mean to increase the other. Making 88 salvo more expensive would mean to increase also 25 pdr, 75 mm arty, 95 mm arty and so on. Its a system that works atm. So we shouldnt demand and set arty cost for units just because of some subjective feelings.

6. Both have pros and cons and also need to be considered in the entire doctrinal context. The Firstorm isnt an howitzer arty strike. The 105 can be top or flop. The firestorm has more "stable results and performence".

[SteamID_razelazz]

It's commendable that Tiger tries so hard to control the direction of conversations.

I think I'll stick to the conventional, tried-and-true method of making threads about specific issues that can be addressed easily instead of participating in mega-threads that devolve into shitposting.

[Viper]

ALWAYS this armacalic....WHY doesn't he simply try to do something more useful and go publish his own topics and show us his awesome idealistic ideas then? it's atleast better than to waste time offending others

anyways

(which only 82nd and infiltration ranger have at default)

what about the cqb? the hq airborne etc? they also have it by default.
And I bet you already know that not only axis infantry get fire up ability when they level up , all are actually the same that's why it might be really easier for allies to dodge axis Mgs since many of them has it by default.

Comparing 150 mm arty with up to 600 damage with 105 that has 335 damage is just dump. sorry but thats how it is.

exactly , sadly that's how it is in BK mod... like we discussed it already before the priest is guided by satellite also like sukin-kot once told you! although it comes too early it can kill king tiger with 4 direct hits. EVEN has cheaper barrages than wespe now...ridiculous.

The firestorm has more "stable results and performence".

this is not a reason to justifiy such high cost.
the inf doctrine barrage is strong against pretty much everything too....

It's commendable that Tiger tries so hard to control the direction of conversations.

I think I'll stick to the conventional, tried-and-true method of making threads about specific issues that can be addressed easily instead of participating in mega-threads that devolve into shitposting.

you come here just to say this man?? Plz better discuss game balance than to keep posting useless off-topic comments that will extend such mega threads even more!
WHO cares about who was the writer of the topic since it's about the game after all....

[Warhawks97]

Is this "Tigers clan topic". I dont want to repeat everything.

Oh.... CQC. the unit that is in late game nothing than a waste. Its good for some mid game surprises but thats it. Later on when game gets more speedfull and vehicles/inf with lmgs and stgs arround you can forget this unit. Most who keep relying on them rather lose the game fast. And MG42 pins instant even sprinting units. Normal axis inf with sprint can make a pretty walk arround before getting finally suppressed. I dont really scare allied HMG´s. I mean in case i get up sandbags and kill it with my K98.

well.... 4 direct hits kill tiger? And? direct hits. I Jumbos with two hotchkiss rockets that land quickly left and right of it.

I two shot pershing with hummel and 210 and dont even have to hit that close. So whats the point? Tiger dies again to "easy"? And if several barrages and off maps do not kill it completely? Buisness as usual? 4 direct hits is the minimum required. And only vet priest can do that.

"exactly , sadly that's how it is in BK mod." And what means that? You didnt get my point. How to compare heavy with medium arty? They have different purposes still.


About firestorm and off map. Fine... make firestorm cheap as fuck. But inf would then get better arty units. I played few games with multiple terror and inf docs in a single game. but at the end the terror guys got the better arty. All mobile, quickly shooting, high damage and so on. So terror gets the better arty units already and better tanks (and strong inf). Its basically what i think terror is atm. Best inf, best armor and already one of the best arty docs. So where should terror doc end? Super ultra doc that beats every other specialized doc on each ground? Flame nades like SE and AB, inf that gets very good weapon for free like luft inf, Tanks that easily outclass normal pershings by costing not more than those, inf that has one of the best cost-efficency ration being also far more versatile in combat as Pgrens.

Why we dont request right away a 170 mm off map strike that cost just 185 ammo?


The terror doc is the most competetive doctrine already and nearly everybody choses terror when playing WH. 2 terror docs out of 3 WH factions is rather normal than unusual already.

I think WH faction atm is the last we should worry about. It is filled with the best units in the game. It has always competetive arty that get matched only by CW arty doc, strongest inf with extrem high versatility, strong defenses etc.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Is this "Tigers clan topic"

I dare u say this again Hawks.. not that some people disagree with u to then claim they are somehow a clan of mine! Plz mate, u r someone whom I respect...

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=930
Here on this topic for example which is already included through my topic references on the list where u discussed both Sukin and Tor regarding the KT as they both clearly disagreed with u; were they also members of my so called 'clan' I wonder??!!

U gotta have to apologize for this one I believe.
I know that actually ur pride may not allow u to do so...
But even if u didn't, I would still forgive it.. no matters what!! Just because I trust u... Although that we probably agreed together just too rarely on anything

[Warhawks97]

This topic has too many points. Nobody really is going to read it all besides me and some of your mates. It might gets again 30 pages full of stuff about everything mixed with insults etc.

Also you, seha and yafa also place more or less same demands and questions to which i already answered. So idk how much sense it makes to answer all of you in special posts.

Also KT is one thing here you are so "angry" about? I just think its a bad idea. And whenever sukin is playing allis he gets CW arty or a mate with arty anyway in more than like 90% of the games. Stuck some teams with randomly picked players of similiar skill level, let them choose doc combos etc and see what will happen. Unless its an urban map i am pretty sure that a single allied player wont manage to handle a KT and that it requires team effort to kill it.

I mean how does KT usually die? Firstly someone has to immoblize it. Thats usually done by commandos or airborne. It need to be pushed in a corner and its space to move limited as much as possible. Usually done by inf and RE with emplacments. Finally killed by arty (inf but usually RA). So its not seldomly a massive team effort to kill that single tank.

Send single KT vs RE player and he most likely loses his entire army to KT. KT and schrecks squad/stuka and he will definately.
Send vs inf doc with gren squad (1 or 2) and it will probably win the day unless a lucky long tom hits which is hard when KT moves free.
Send vs armor doc when SP is down and armor doc loses against that tank.

So 1400 MP and 210 fuel is a good price for something that anihilates entire armies by its own. Or at least having the power to do so.

[Krieger Blitzer]

So, no apologizing.. exactly as I expected that ur pride would actually prevent u but... Well.

This topic has too many points. Nobody really is going to read it all besides me and some of your mates. It might gets again 30 pages full of stuff about everything mixed with insults etc.

What's ur point here? Why are u bringing up all this stuff about the topic right now??!! U don't like the topic or what?! Alright, just don't participate any further then.

There should be no more insulting btw... Unless someone is really willing to get banned so far!

Also you, seha and yafa also place more or less same demands and questions to which i already answered. So idk how much sense it makes to answer all of you in special posts.

I shared Sukin demands by attaching that topic link to my list.. then they supported these Sukin demands which I support too! Through that topic even Tor repeated Sukin points for u again, so honestly idk how much sense it makes to simply neglect all those opinions.

Also KT is one thing here you are so "angry" about? I just think its a bad idea. And whenever sukin is playing allis he gets CW arty or a mate with arty anyway in more than like 90% of the games. Stuck some teams with randomly picked players of similiar skill level, let them choose doc combos etc and see what will happen. Unless its an urban map i am pretty sure that a single allied player wont manage to handle a KT and that it requires team effort to kill it.

U think it's a bad idea? That's fine.. but u said this already million times before... Even through that topic where u discussed them, ur opinion was very clear!
So why do u think it's necessary to keep replying others mind over and over again?? Wasn't it enough to just say ur opinion? U simply don't have to answer everyone.

We have heard u, now just relax and give some space for others plz...

[Warhawks97]

And its derailed. I think it makes no point to continue further. I answered in first replay. Then same questions came up again just by another one. I answered again and so on.

I think this topic has done its job. You posted your points which probably only hardcore forum members have read (or answered). I never blamed or insulted anyone. So before filling more pages with off topic stuff i would say we end it here.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Yes I surely agree, let's end it here... I have done what I should.. now it's Wolf to decide which to exactly consider and which to exactly not! I can only wish him luck with the next patch so far.

Anyone who wants to add something further; he is definitely free to do so... But without insulting or going off-topic as I also won't comment at anyone just like as _ if u notice _ I already here haven't really participated with commenting on ur own nor even anyone else ongoing deep game arguments btw.

[Butterkeks]

Please dont add mg 42 top gunner to any tanks, I strongly hate those things... And also please dont reduce the price of the most viable tank of the game.
Dont even know if I had to say those things, just wanted to be on the sure side.

Please don't even make topics like this, you're not part of the official dev team, and half the list is stuff you want in the mod regardless of what a number of people have said against your ideas. Don't even mention the previous lists either, those weren't official either and you weren't important enough for most of the changes, which makes it worse when you clearly say the devs will be tracking this topic closely. Just say it's just a compilation list WITHOUT drawing attention to yourself claiming you are a head honcho on the forum. Would make reading the list bearable, and wouldn't make me revile every part that says "I assume" or "likely because I said so."

My two cents on this topic.

+1.

Simply +1.

Is it really necessary to write 40 lines of how you masturbate to yourself every night before you start a topic like this?

You started well. But later you went a bit over the top oO.

Also +1.

ALS for Tiger earlier available and Flank Speed for Panther AGAIN?! Really?

U better gotta have to stop this right now Armacalic. Wolf could have removed this topic if he wanted!

Always funny how you think just because you wrote the topic it has a special attention by devs... Or that they'll protect you anyhow...


Why im writing this?

And its derailed. I think it makes no point to continue further. I answered in first replay. Then same questions came up again just by another one. I answered again and so on.

I think this topic has done its job. You posted your points which probably only hardcore forum members have read (or answered). I never blamed or insulted anyone. So before filling more pages with off topic stuff i would say we end it here.

Well yes. Why discuss it even? It only got derailed. But I think it's important for you to know that not every forum member loves you or wants you to do lists like this that indeed will nearly no one read.

But I think it also always important to mention that not everyone agrees with your suggestions. I think it's important to give you contra on the most stupid suggestions (Price drop for KT, ALS for Tiger earlier, FLank Speed for Panther...).
Because you always try to sneak in your personal preferences in a topic that indeed started really good.
I really liked the first part. The suggestions were good, balance not harmed - perfect.
But then? The same stuff over and over that got discussed and denied a hundred times, simply because you can't accept a "no".

But whatever. Tbh I highly doubt that there will be another patch, mostly because of this comment from Wolf:

From my part its lack of time ending in lack of interest, because when I have some time, I am rather spending it non-coh related stuff, as CoH modding and even playing is very time consuming thing if you want to do it properly. Plus generally CoH2 got better, got some good mods, so some went playing that or other games (dont forget Fallout 4 is out). I still have plans for BK2 and I would love to do it, but its way too time consuming right now.

[Yafa]

regardless how much haters you showing here mixed with vulgarity however this quotation from wolf at all doesn't mean that there will be no next patch .... because markr already showed us how he is still generally interested as he was re adjusting the mines for example ,he also said many times that there are still some bugs that need to be fixed and above all don't forget he made a poll about snipers shooting from transporters too and so on .. so just knock it off

[MarKr]

And here we go once again... Guys, is it really so hard to keep the insults out of your replies? I can understand that some of you have antipathies towards some other members but can't you just ignore it? You can just say "I agree with 1,2,3 but disagree with 4,5,6 because bla bla bla... my two cents."
You see, insulting others is easy but it is never constructive in any way so please, keep it cool here.

And btw:

But whatever. Tbh I highly doubt that there will be another patch, mostly because of this comment from Wolf:

There will be another patch I cannot tell when exactely because we're both with Wolf quite busy right now but I got some stuff ready, some fixes and some changes too, some stuff is work in progress and I still have a few things that I want to definately pull off...so I haven't worked on it just so it can lay around my harddrive and eat up space there.

[Butterkeks]

And here we go once again... Guys, is it really so hard to keep the insults out of your replies? I can understand that some of you have antipathies towards some other members but can't you just ignore it? You can just say "I agree with 1,2,3 but disagree with 4,5,6 because bla bla bla... my two cents."
You see, insulting others is easy but it is never constructive in any way so please, keep it cool here.

Well I try.
But yeah Tiger's got something that let's my Hulk out...
I mean these lists are not representative for the whole community. Yet he acts like these were the "demands" everyone has. That's simply the point that makes me angry.

There will be another patch I cannot tell when exactely because we're both with Wolf quite busy right now but I got some stuff ready, some fixes and some changes too, some stuff is work in progress and I still have a few things that I want to definately pull off...so I haven't worked on it just so it can lay around my harddrive and eat up space there.

Cool
I'm looking forward to it
Good that I was mistaken here^^

[Krieger Blitzer]

Gotta have to clarifiy something that is rather very important down here...
It's true that only some points do have topic reference links, yet even most of the others which don't have such references are still NOT necessarily out of my own demands! Examples:-

Tiger Ace call in should no longer provide a Storm squad with it, being 200 MP cheaper.

This was actually suggested by Tor.

Jumbo to be swapped with the Calliope, each becoming cheaper as well... 750 MP for the Jumbo.. and 650 for Calli.

And this is by Hawks.. etc.

But I simply couldn't find any clear topic references for such points... However that if u searched up through the forum topics well (which is something I doubt u ever did, since u rarely visiting here as u once said it urself) I can promise u will then find out that really few points included here are belonging to my mind; as I surely can't deny the fact that there are some points of which I am suggesting by my own here, since I am the one who wrote the topic itself.. but really few ones as I mentioned.

So btw, it would be wrong if u would call out this topic as a 'demanding' list because it's NOT anyhow a demanding one.. as it's more to be about just a collection after all...

Now anyways it's good to see that u r hopefully convinced u were wrong.. as that this topic is not only a 'troll' so far since that the developers are actually participating in it, as it's not for nothing as u thought or as u probably wished it would be.

Finally considering this,

+1.

Simply +1.

Is it really necessary to write 40 lines of how you masturbate to yourself every night before you start a topic like this?

No offense will be toward u at all here through the following lines as a response to this;
As I personally never managed to insult u or anyone else like this way before and I WILL not do so at any possible point...
Do u know why?
Proudly because I am an educated person who is a Muslim member or a son of a respectful Arabic family, so both my culture, my manners as well as my religion; all do strongly prevent me from going too low to such a level.



Edit:- 4th of Jan 2016 _ 13:30 UTC+1

Back to topic...
I would like to modify few points from the list;

#PART 1
7) Dingo can cap points or hide when in cover, having the toggle hold fire ability then! (intention by MarKr)
-Personally I also believe that it should replace the Bren Carrier from the customize army menu, while the Wasp should replace the repairing Bren Carrier version only for the RE doc... Recce would be always by default then!
--------------------
#PART 3
5) PE HauptOfficer squad should recieve 'Heroic charge' boosting aura ability at Vet lvl 2.
-Riflemen squad should have the upgrade of the rifle grenade also in Armor doc!!
--------------------
#PART 5
4) RA doc 75mm HT barrage price from 25 to 50 ammo.
-25P normal barrage price from 35 to 50 ammo, aimed salvo from 35 to 75 ammo.. overwatch from 25 to 50 ammo too!
-Churchill 95mm barrage price should increase to 50 ammo.
--------------------
#PART 6
2) Both the Ostwind and the Wirbelwind should gain veterancy levels faster.. and to no longer require more 50 ammo in order to switch back to regular AP rounds!
-Churchill MKVI shouldn't require ammo to switch back from HE shells anymore, flak 88s too.
-Both the Cromwell as well as the 37mm Blitz doc HT shouldn't also require more 75 ammo once again in order to switch back to AP rounds...

4) ALL Tigers:-
-Flank speed ability to be totally removed.
-Tank Shock or I mean 'Tigerphobia' ability which was already nerfed, to be moved to Vet lvl 1. (Keep in mind that the KT currently has it at Vet 1 already btw! If the KT would also get the ALRS at Vet 2 instead of currently Vet 3 as requested on the previous point which is number 3 in part 6 as well, then we would finally get the same abilities for both tanks at the exact same Vet lvl steps without anymore such illogical differences between them as like by now; I mean that finally both the KT and the Tiger tanks will then be just equal in the availability time for each of their common shared abilities as they will together have Tigerphobia at Vet 1 and ALRS at Vet 2)

6) Both ACEs should receive one more Vet step.. becoming Vet 2 by default.
--------------------
#PART 7
Two new other points added...

4) The description of the Churchills is completely misleading.

5) Def doc 75mm L\24 HT timed HE rounds ability seem to be not working properly anyhow.

[sandman332]

#PART 1

1) improved squads AI behaviour when ordered to attack. (Confirmed by Panzerblitz1)
-Topic reference; viewtopic.php?f=15&t=786

Now, is there a reason why the dev team is only using the improved attack logic from his mod? Why not all of it ex. idle logic as well? As Idle and Attack Logic was both very much improved in his mod. Unless that's a typo, not sure. Would love to know why as Ai is a huge thing.

[Krieger Blitzer]

People like u can ruin my day...
Since that such a question, actually indicates accurate strength of observation while reading
It's only a typo so far ^^ As I think it should be all of it.. so; just my bad!

Note:-
The next patch change-log preview will be more likely delayed btw.. simply not now.

[Yafa]

the airborne doctrine quad 50 emplacements got too much health by the way .... maybe all the fortified aa turrets too and not just the one from airborne although they are cheap !

[Krieger Blitzer]

Hmm.. yes... But they aren't often keep bouncing off the handheld AT weapons anymore hopefully.
What I am more concerned about right now after all, is this HE rounds matter as I am actually looking forward to see timed HEs replacing all the current single shot shells; not sure if it would be just fine though!

[kwok]

LOL, trying not to insult someone but then insulting them is like saying accidentally having sex. I'm pretty sure hands do not type independently from your mind and go off on hurtful comments. I'm also pretty sure that creating insults in your mind takes at least a minimal amount of thought, which may be involuntary for some but the thought would STILL need to get past whatever inhibitor you put as an attempt to "try not to insult" someone.

And we wonder why the community shrinks every day.

[Krieger Blitzer]

If I do correctly get what u meant as well as ur exact point down there.. then I guess that hopefully these guys _ or even anybody else _ won't ever manage to insult anymore time again...

I honestly liked this philosophical style of typing btw ^^ But plz, try to avoid speaking more regarding this matter while perhaps unknowingly re-establishing it once again I am afraid; since that apparently it has already been closed by now and also forever as we all hope!

As I would just like to see posts which are ONLY related to the main subject of this topic.

[Yafa]

this bug here !
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=951
i can confirm it .....

[Eldrak1911]

Speaking about the topic goal...

I have some questions.

Part 3 - point 7 :

Luft Pioneers to lose their default single MP44 and the MP40s upgrade too.. becoming 100 MP less expensive on the other hand. -This would also fix a minor sound bug btw.

What weapons will have the Luftpionneers then ? K98 ? For airdropped unit ? That would be...weird at least.

Part 7 :
1) I agree with that, a 200cap mode could be realy nice, converting the 150cap mode is a good idea.
2) Er, i realy like the luftwaffe doc, especialy for inf only mode but... Wtf why ?
3) YES, definitely yes ! I would be so good.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Through this topic;
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=901
U can find that comment...

As for Luft, we did a very simple experiment with Terence, I suggest you to repeat it, try 1v1 infantry only mode, Luft against inf, and see how long will it stand.

Which is actually an answer to this:-

2) Er, i realy like the luftwaffe doc, especialy for inf only mode but... Wtf why ?

As that Sukin there was pointing out on the fact that actually the Luft doc can NOWAY stand up a fair fight against Inf doc or even AB doc in the so called 'infantry only mode' which I also confirm to be so true.. specifically because of lacking any mortars.


Now as a response to this;

What weapons will have the Luftpionneers then ? K98 ? For airdropped unit ? That would be...weird at least.

Through the same topic link above u could see this post too:-

Flaks are shit, naked one often dyes faster than it can make a few shots, emplaced one is too costly, especially together with Luft pioneers ( 970 mp omg, it's a price of a tiger just for a stationary cannon which requires additional 75 ammo every time when it have to protect itself against infantry ).

In order to make them cheaper (since they are mainly called just to build the flak 88s and not to fight in the first place) as well as to get rid of the sound bug altogether.. as I simply couldn't find a better way to achieve both goals at the same time except this idea!

[Eldrak1911]

specifically because of lacking any mortars.

And the 2 cp (5 cp in total) heavy weapon airdrop ? Ok, 5 is perhaps a bit too much compared to the "immediate" ab mortar. But, if we just switch the Gebirbsjäger cp unlock with the heavy weapon one, it's only three, and it's, imo, fair. I think 88mm Flak would be, god, way too powerfull. Just use the HE round, and it's ok, not a single ennemy guy will survive.

About the Pioneers, in fact you did not answered the question ^^ I didn't say why, i said what. So, are the pioneers, yes or no, going to be equipped with K98 ?
I totaly agree what you said about the high price, they are builders first, that's true (still, they are, with mp40 upgrade, good urban fighters too).