Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

[Warhawks97]

Sure its possible:) 3x2 FG42 as upgrade. But also STGs available. So the player can get what he thinks he needs in any specific moment.

[Eldrak1911]

But, isn't it only three slots available for upgrades ? Or am i mistaking myself ?

[Warhawks97]

But, isn't it only three slots available for upgrades ? Or am i mistaking myself ?

You can give at max three different weapon upgrades:D

But you can each upgrade use several times.

The SS squad can get schreck, stg and lmg42. But you can give them 3 lmg42, three schrecks, or 6 stgs.

The number of slots is important. If a unit as still free slots and when a weapon has no maximum then you can give one upgrade several times untill their slots are full:D

You can also add 3 times double stg pack to infantry units etc

[Eldrak1911]

Oki, so i was not completely mistaking myself ^^

[Kasbah]

just give at least the possibility for the falls to take weapons from the ground, as mentioned. So if you find a shreck/bazooka, you can have some good AT capabilities.

[Terence's Mouth]

Reg 5 definatly needs more health, more than Rangers.
On aliet side i would change the SAS to the same Health because theyre have to less Health too.

[Warhawks97]

Reg 5 definatly needs more health, more than Rangers.
On aliet side i would change the SAS to the same Health because theyre have to less Health too.

They do have more HP already.

Grens, fallis, commandos etc have 80 HP.

Rangers 75. Rangers have another tp.

So HP isnt all. Sometimes the tp is more important as the health. Health does play an important role but in this respect they already belong to the most healthy inf.

Only SS squad and stormtroopers are incredible HP monsters (95 while grens, commandos and fallis have 80 HP.

The 82nd AB squad btw has 85 health and tp_infantry_Airborne against which most weapons suffer an accuracy penalty while the squad is moving. Still that squad is barely used and usually only dropped when the player needs the bazookas.


We might buff the reg 5 from 80 to 85 or even 95 HP in case it becomes more focused as an assault unit that drops with MP40 and STG but also FG42 as upgrades available.


So you also have to keep in mind whats the squad main purpose will be before you decide how "healthy" they should get.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

It feels like reg.5 cant dodge bullets like Grens or stotmtroopers, they take all weapon fire even during sprint, thats why dieng so fast, maybe better to change their target type.

About 82s, its very cool to use them as AT squad with 2 zooks and 2 recoiless.

[Terence's Mouth]

I said they need more Health you say they already have??? where is the sense, i said they need more health now.

[Eldrak1911]

Reg 5 definatly needs more health, more than Rangers.

You said more than rangers Terence, 'Hawks proved you that they currently have more health than rangers, that's all.

[MarKr]

It feels like reg.5 cant dodge bullets like Grens or stotmtroopers, they take all weapon fire even during sprint, thats why dieng so fast, maybe better to change their target type.

Grenadiers and Stormtroopers have "tp_infantry" type (no bonuses)
Fallies and 82nd have "typ_infantry_heroic" type which reduces suppression by 25%
101st have "tp_infantry_airborne" type which reduces their chances of being hit while moving by 25%

So I guess it would be possible to give them what 101st have but then Fallies will get suppressed faster...

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

It feels like reg.5 cant dodge bullets like Grens or stotmtroopers, they take all weapon fire even during sprint, thats why dieng so fast, maybe better to change their target type.

Grenadiers and Stormtroopers have "tp_infantry" type (no bonuses)
Fallies and 82nd have "typ_infantry_heroic" type which reduces suppression by 25%
101st have "tp_infantry_airborne" type which reduces their chances of being hit while moving by 25%

So I guess it would be possible to give them what 101st have but then Fallies will get suppressed faster...

I think 25% dodge chance while moving is way better than reduced supression, it only helps to rush mg nests which isnt nessessary at all + after they get vet.3 with rush ability which allows to ignore supression their target type stops giving any benefits, moreover, mostly axis inf gets supressed by shermans which have pin ability and ignore any bonuces, or you encounter AA vehicles like Quad Cal or Crusader, which kills half of squad with 1 burst before it will get supressed.. On other tread i proposed to give reg.5 a smoke (similar what commando have) with tp_infantry_airborne and smoke they will be really cool assault unit, like a mix of 101s (good weapons) and commando (smoke and camo) therefor limited to only 2, reinforcement cost can be approx the same as for commando, smoke will be available only after vet training unlock in command tree. Than we will get pretty balanced infantry fights together with doc specific playstyle, at start 101s, commando and reg.5 have similar weapon load outs, at late game luft will rely more on their quality ( 2 powerfull assault squads with FG42 and StG44 + smoke and higher survability ) against growing masses of alied infantry.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I am clearly not with changing the current loadout for cheaper price in return as I already said before...

But actually I wouldn't mind changing the HP type here.. specifically if the HauptOfficer squad ever received the heroic charge ability, as requested!

[Warhawks97]

Its true what sukin says.
I mean its not that hard with grens, storms etc to overrun allied HMG´s. And if it isnt an emplacment you can beat it from distant even with volks.

Also they have the assault ability like BK inf after unlock which also removes suppression and which throws as many nades as necessary to kill the target or the entire emplacment.

Not to mention all the cover in late game which enables even weaker inf to overrun allied HMG´s.

It might be worth a test to change from heroic to AB.


Besides the received suppression against tp_heroic applies to lmgs and rifles which wouldnt suppress anyway.

So in that case AB type would make them surviving longer against normal small arms fire as suppression doesnt matter here anyway.
And the only weapon that suppresses axis inf in late game are shermans with suppressive fire ability.



But Note: The HE rounds (like sherman) do deal more damage against tp_AB as against Heroic. So the Luft inf would die a way faster to HE rounds (of shermans).
I am not sure but it might be that this is the case why Luft inf survives RAF cluster bombs so much better. The AB type would probably make them dying like grens probably.


So if you want to assault enemie inf and trying to get closer then AB type is better. But when enemie gets HE rounds and RAF cluster bombs the current heroic type seems to be better.

The cromwel HEl also hits Heroic better as AB type but deals less damage. But i hope cromwell HE gun is being fixed generally.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Thats true, we have to take into account also how alied weapons performs against certain type of target tables, if there are too many tricky things, than just give them the same ability as for Gebirgs, would be the best and easiest solution actually. Btw, is cover bonuse the only difference between reg5 and Gebirgs?

[Warhawks97]

Thats true, we have to take into account also how alied weapons performs against certain type of target tables, if there are too many tricky things, than just give them the same ability as for Gebirgs, would be the best and easiest solution actually. Btw, is cover bonuse the only difference between reg5 and Gebirgs?

I am not so well into units that get called by doctrinal abilties.

I havent found the ability in the doctrine that calls the unit and so i couldnt really check them as good as other units.


But i also seen the "cross" symbol overhead of storms although it should only appear above Terror inf when using this global ability. But i couldnt even find that ability in stormtrooper ability list. But i found the passive ability listed in their ability list which is actually from terror doc (the one which comes before stg unlock iirc). Its a passive one that makes a squad stronger the less men the squad has. But in "requirements" it says that it requires the terror doc unlock.

So the storms have a symbol that should only occure over terror inf when a global ability is being used but this ability isnt even listed in stormtooper list. And a terror ability that is listed in Stormtrooper ability list cant be active due to missing requirments.

So its really weird stuff oO. So better ask the devs about it oO. But since Gebirgs do have that def doc symbol overhead when being in cover and from my experience a lot harder to kill i do belive that those effectively use the def doc ability.

Axis_cover_enhancment (def doc)

Received_damage_modifier: 0.85
Received_accuracy_modifier: 0.8
Received_suppression_modifier: 0.25
Requires:
Light or heavy cover.


this is the def doc boost for def doc inf after unlock (passive) and probably used by Gebirgs.

So together with current tp heroic used by gebirgs there is nothing that kill them instantlly except 105 arty shells and 107 mortars. Even a direct hit of an HE shell from sherman shouldnt kill a single Gebirgsjäger solider. Snipers are thus the best tool to kill an gebirgs entity.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Def ability would really make sense for reg.5, the way how stats of Gebirgs and Reg.5 are set now causes some questions. Due to weapon load out (schreck, fg42, grenade assault ability) theoretically reg.5 have to be an assault unit , like a spearhead of offense or something, when Gebirgs are kinda long range fire support with their scoped rifles and lmg34, but in fact Gebirgs are more preferable in all situations simply because of much bigger survivability. This bonuse makes much more sense for reg.5. Id prefer to see both luft units with this bonuse, than, at least in late game you will have an competitive advantage against higher allied inf numbers, their pros are amount and bigger tactic options, yours in super survivable inf in cover, at least it will justify their crazy reinforce cost. And simply... Gebirgs have better firepower on all ranges except very close one, pzfaust 100 which is much better than schreck (penetrates everything, fails less often, doesnt take away 1 weapon from the squad) and this bonuce ability, so, why reg.5 cant have the same?

As for terror doc bonuse which boosts inf damage with each soldier loss.....I never could feel any difference before and after purchasing this passive ability in command tree, maybe you are right and its not working, or just the effect is negligible.

"So together with current tp heroic used by gebirgs there is nothing that kill them instantlly except 105 arty shells and 107 mortars. Even a direct hit of an HE shell from sherman shouldnt kill a single Gebirgsjäger solider. Snipers are thus the best tool to kill an gebirgs entity."

Rifle nade, AB flame nade, Scott, several times i have seen how this things whiped out the entire squad in cover.

[Warhawks97]

Ok, i havent checked nades but they can true. But i dont see them often hitting anything. But if they do..... Its deadly.

I havent checked scott gun yet. Maybe it has more damage as sherman.



Generally i would also vote for giving them the same def bonus. Luft inf was known as the toughest infantry in ww2. They often caused high casaulties against superior enemie forces, especially when stopping enemie advances.


Giving them the AB type is probably not the best solution coz HE tanks would kill them a way faster. And if i take into consideration how quickly HE shermans killing grens etc.....



So what we finally going to do with Luftwaffe?


Reg 5 for 450 MP as airdrop and MP40 at default. Up to 6 FG42 or STGs or a mix of both can be purchased. Also having this def boost. Current reinforce cost keep untouched. (?)
Gebirgs as 450 MP call in without touching the current reinforce cost and LMG34 as upgrade (?)
Luft pios as 260 MP call in with advanced repairs at default and only K98 (tuned if necessary). Or 240 MP to build in kampfgruppe company after choosing luft doc and also as 320 MP airdrop available after unlock (?)
Also taking advantage of the hopefully fixed and standardized 75 mm L/48 guns to fight medium armor better.



Is this so far a basis for the new Luftwaffe design? A mix of infantry with high survivability, assault capabilties, good weapon upgrades, ambush style pared with strong defensive options (more pios can be effectively fielded) and air support.

Edit:
Checked the scott. It has 100 damage (sherman HE 80) but no bonus damage multiplier unlike sherman has which boosts his damage vs inf to 120. The damage drop in AoE is slightly less but sherman is still better. Only in the explosion center the scott has higher damage (150). So if the luft inf stays clustered it might happen to insta kill them but it shouldnt be that common.

Most likely when the squad is staying in a little crater close enough to each other. So a HE sherman deals max 80 damage to the luft inf that kills a guy at once. The scott, due to its damage boost in explosion center, can kill quite well with 150 damage.

For some reason the scott has a high damage penalty vs tp_soldier that is used by PE standard inf. So vs PE grens a HE sherman should be better. Vs Luft inf a scott might be the preferable choice since shermans do also not have a damage boost vs heroic inf.

In fact the scott deals just 70 damage to PE inf. In explosion center 105. So it most likely snipes single soldiers out of the squad except they stay too clustered.

The scott is more accurate vs not moving inf at up to 40 range. Above 40 range both are about equal accurate, the sherman slightly more.

The scott does also not suffer damage and accuracy penalties vs light and heavy cover unlike HE sherman. So if there is a squad sitting in a small yellow crater or behind a wall then get a scott. It has a good chance to instant whipe any inf due to the damage in the direct center.

Just vs inf inside bunkers the sherman has way more damage.

[Krieger Blitzer]

So what we finally going to do with Luftwaffe?


Reg 5 for 450 MP as airdrop and MP40 at default. Up to 6 FG42 or STGs or a mix of both can be purchased. Also having this def boost. Current reinforce cost keep untouched. (?)
Gebirgs as 450 MP call in without touching the current reinforce cost and LMG34 as upgrade (?)
Luft pios as 260 MP call in with advanced repairs at default and only K98 (tuned if necessary). Or 240 MP to build in kampfgruppe company after choosing luft doc and also as 320 MP airdrop available after unlock (?)

Asking what we will do with Luft?
Nothing.. but just a price reduction for the Reg 5 by 50 MP while probably gaining the def bonus too, as well as a cost drop for the Luft Pioneers of 100 MP while remaining as an airdropped unit! Slightly lowered price for emplaced 88s generally; with arty barrage to be added for the Luft ones of course... The HauptOfficer squad might also receive the heroic charge ability at Vet lvl 2 at least only when the Luft doc get to be ever selected.

That's all I would say!

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Mark, what do you think?

[Jagdpanther]

when is the next patch going to be out? i'm really looking forward to the improved squad AI

[Krieger Blitzer]

@Sukin;
MarKr already said his opinion here regarding this one I guess...

It still seem to me that the Luft infantry would actually received a nerf...Cheaper in terms of MP but less combat efficiency. Sure, you can boost that with weapon upgrades but that costs resources again so the "lower cost" is in the end not that much true. It is arguable if 100MP is more or less than 100 munition (depends on map, resource management and other stuff) but in any rate MP is always generated faster than ammo. The MP40s for reg 5 as default...again, FG42 is kind of effective (or at least above-average) at any range while MP40s are pure close range, this completely changes the purpose of the squad. Scoped G43s...how much of a difference would two of these make? Sure, it is some efficiency boost without a question but would it be worth spending the ammo?


I think that in the end people mostly go with tactics "I build what is most cost-effective and least complicated to use" if it is made the way you say, I think it will be easier and still maybe cheaper to use normal Assault grenadiers and Reg 5 and Gebirgs would only be used by a few people.

@Jagdpanther;
Be patience

[MarKr]

Well, some of the opinions sound quite good but I am not sure about this. From my experience even a small change can have severe consequences on the gameplay (remember Jeep gun :/ ) and what you want to introduce is (or at least what has been said so far):
1) Lower the cost both of Gebirgs and Reg5 by 100 MP
2) Remove their current loadout and replace it with other weapons (less effective)
3) Add them weapon upgrades
4) Tweak upkeep costs
5) Add the defensive bonuses to Reg5 (even if after Vet Unlock)
6) Boost Reg 5 HP
7) Change Reg5 target type
8) Changes about Luft Pios (lower cost, weapons...)

As Tiger used my quote...well that might be a problem but if Reg5 gets different target type and the defense bonus in cover, their position in the "I build what is most cost-effective and least complicated to use" would probably be more solid.

So if you ask what I think about it, my answer is simply "I don't know". These changes could bring something new and potentialy useful but it is hard to predict the outcome.
I'll ask Wolf what he thinks and let you know then.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Not all at once, if you are against changing their weapons and cost than just implement points numbers 4,5,8. If reg.5 will have similar survivability to Gebirgs ( btw, am I right that this bonuse is the only difference between them?) it will automatically solve the problems of squad, even FG42 will become better without changing its stats.

As for variant with 450 mp but no weapons.... than I think reinforce cost and time shall be reduced, or in early-mid stage they will be kinda as useless as 101s without weapons + crazy reinforce cost.

So, points 4,5,8 + cheaper flaks in order to revive them in game, I would also recommend to drop build time for emplaced 88, it takes forever, that's why you can't build it on a freshly gained territory, enemy will prevent this god damn easy, so everybody builds emplaced 88 only as back up weapon but... 550 mp and fuel for a back up cannon ( + 75 ammo for HE, also add here that Luft is basically always limited in resources ) this price simply not worth it, and feels so bad when at the same time Inf and RE docs building up their emplacements in a blink of an eye.

Will something be done with Jeep and WH schwim? They are ultimate killers in early game, everybody goes only for them and this makes zero fun, especially when you see how engeniers repair them faster than your soldiers destroying it with bullets. PE schwim doesn't have balance issues because it easily gets killed by Jeep and it takes a long time for pzgrens to repair it ( hence no "repairing faster than destroying problem" ) Hawks suggestions regarding this are pure overnerf, that's why I propose to decrease their HP by 25%.

UPDATE

Finally im in mood to exclude bullshit points from this, so called, "initial list". Lets start.

PART 1.

8) Recoiless have 50% chance to penetrate pz4, sometimes bounce even of Ostwind, what is quite fair, nerfing them is just not nessesary and stupid, especially if take into account that rifle was buffed several patches ago after it has been overnerfed and couldnt hit shit at all, also it has longer reloading time and less accuracy than any other handled AT.

And generally I advice Mark and Wolf to avoid any nerfs against docs which are the most rare faction docs, this straightly means that they are underperfoming in compare to other options which player has, downgrading doc which almost nobody uses because its too complicated or simply sucks is not a good way of balancing. Currently outsiders docs are: AB for USA, TH for PE, i see them like 10 times less often than their faction alternatives. Regarding brits and wh its ok more or less ( but jeez, give some reconsistance for RE pls)

One more point about AB and why its beeing played so seldomly. 2 reasons:
1) Difficult early-mid game stage, when inf doc already can call powerfull off map, surprise enemy with CQB, launch assault with early Jumbo or build uber 107mm you only have 101s and 82s which in stock arent much better than rangers or rifles.
2) It is the only alied doc which almost cant protect itself against axis Heavies. The only hope is smartly ambushed Hellcat, but if it fails you can instantly retreat to the base with all your troops or Panther\Tiger will slaughter them.
3) Super high dependence on ammo, no ammo - no game. You need it for equiping paratroopers, calling airstrikes, using HVAP for hellcat, destroying defences with satchels. Other docs do not rely on ammo that much because: All axis docs have some inf with good stock weapons, SS squad and stormpioniers for PE, Luft units, terror gets stg44 for free, BK has supression SS and officer team, SE can trade fuel, Raf has weapons for free, inf doc can invest into emplacements when out of ammo. Thats why when i play AB i always trying to OP ammo points as soon as possible, otherwise the entire doc can only feed enemy.

PART 2.

3) Why only 200 mp cheaper? I think it should cost like persh ace than.

PART 3.

1) No, this squads cant be compared because they have different purposes. Sabotage and CQB are squads for diversions, storms are assault force. How will you make diversions if you cant pop out deep in enemy territories?

6) No. This abilities are very powerfull and absolutely worth their cost. AB barrage costs 60 ammo, but it comes with 60mm mortar shells, not with 81mm like for Axis.

PART 4.

3) I dont even want to spend time for commenting this. More expensive brits arty but axis stays untouch? lmao. Generally there is no need in changing arty doc, its power already was reduced with kicking out endless VT and cuting Recce's VT range + howitzers limit. Also inf doc got VT, raf got arty cromwell, CW arty use is now very situational and only worth to use when axis goes for crazy campy combo like th+def+se, in other cases alies can handle the situation using other docs arty. Following changes will only make doc shitty.

50 ammo for Autocar also nope, its shells are relatively weak and cant cause any significant damage to emplacements or tanks, this car is beeing used as hmg and paks killer, hence price is ok.

8) No, this thing is too random for such price, sometimes it can whipe out the entire squad when in other case not a single shell hits a mortar halftruck which just stays still. Regarding firestorm i agree, since its only effective against inf blobs.

I think thats all for now, with other points i agree or do not think that it will have a significant impact on balance.

Have a nice day.

[Krieger Blitzer]

that's why I propose to decrease their HP by 25%.

I assume that this is the response already;

From my experience even a small change can have severe consequences on the gameplay (remember Jeep gun :/ )

So, they are just fine currently at last...