Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Talk about CoH1 or BKMOD1 in general.
User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 859
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 03 Feb 2016, 12:41

Accuracy is ok, I would lower there rate of fire. Amount of docs where snipers are available doesn't really matter, for axis it is not cost effective to produce snipers in late game, CW have them in only one doc and only after CP unlock. It turns so that only US is a true sniper spammer faction, inf doc can even deploy 3 snipers at once using particular bug, AB is also have 3 snipers when HQ team is on field.

So, yeah, rof reduction will solve this.

@Mark

What's up with recoiless rifles? I think that one shall be added back to a package, this change was absolute nonsense and got pushed by tiger only because of crying about this in every single topic. Twice reduce the amount of AT weapon which was already the weakest in game being in a doctrine which has the worst antitank capabilities among all allies doctrines, wtf seriously? I see no reasons behind this, it have always been difficult to play AB, and now if you don't have 2 hellcats when axis heavy is coming it's GG. It you will add one more instead of Thompson it's not a good solution at all, first of all because it will be still impossible to drop them behind front line because you can't purchase weapon on unfriendly territory, so a single scout car will come and smash your squad ( actually it did even when 101s had 2 rs, accuracy is terrible and every second shot hit the dirt anyway ), and secondly, sometimes it's preferable to equip them with Thompsons, why would we remove this possibility when old style was better in all aspects. Also it will cost precious ammo again, that what AB lacks so hard all the time.

User avatar
MarKr
Team Member
Posts: 2823
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 19:17
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby MarKr » 03 Feb 2016, 13:10

@Mark

What's up with recoiless rifles? I think that one shall be added back to a package, this change was absolute nonsense and got pushed by tiger only because of crying about this in every single topic. Twice reduce the amount of AT weapon which was already the weakest in game being in a doctrine which has the worst antitank capabilities among all allies doctrines, wtf seriously? I see no reasons behind this, it have always been difficult to play AB, and now if you don't have 2 hellcats when axis heavy is coming it's GG. It you will add one more instead of Thompson it's not a good solution at all, first of all because it will be still impossible to drop them behind front line because you can't purchase weapon on unfriendly territory, so a single scout car will come and smash your squad ( actually it did even when 101s had 2 rs, accuracy is terrible and every second shot hit the dirt anyway ), and secondly, sometimes it's preferable to equip them with Thompsons, why would we remove this possibility when old style was better in all aspects.
I asked Wolf about this along with the "deflection damage" of RLs - or more specifically if 101st should get RL upgrade option. The answer was something like "no upgrade for 101st, at least there is more use for the 82nd" So about that.
Image

User avatar
Warhawks97
Posts: 3555
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 21:45
Location: Germany

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Warhawks97 » 03 Feb 2016, 13:25

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:@Keks

Against storms rifle nades, snipers, quad cals, Jumbo, works pretty well. Snipers btw are generally crazy cost effective on allied side cause German inf is way more expensive, if you play against Luft and sniper scored 8 kills he already payed off his price, that's why I seldomly see how axis rebuild snipers after mid game, against inf/AB sniper is the worst choice simply, against RAF nt that good either because can't hit when they activate smoke.


it extremly depends. Storms with leader squad and vet is deadly vs everything as they will have very high HP pool. Also i started using smoke cover by mortar for my storms like i do with allied. Its hell deadly.

I actually do agree that the 107 is sometimes something that is needed. And jumbos become obsolete as soon as Panthers as support show up or even normal Tank IV (vs inf jumbo). So its not always an option. 2-3 storm squads with schrecks assaulting, maybe a 75 mm pak or tank or schreck crew and even jumbo wont do much.



By the way, can somebody post snipers comparison? I think different snipers have different boosts with gaining vet.


later. But actually they should have same vet.... lets see.

And while I was writing this text an idea crossed my mind that USA snipers probably shall be worse in performance than all others, in fact their cost is the same, but effectiveness is much better, because German soldiers are more expensive + each kill gives more exp, hence faster veterancy gaining + supply yard allows to rebuild snipers in late game anytime you want.


you cant say it in general. Commandos 38 per men, SAS 45, Infiltration ranger 45, AB 82nd 46 or so, AB 101st 34 and so on. Only inf doc can spam way cheaper but they need to as they also die just as fast as they come somtimes.

Axis Grens 35, volks 22 (cheapest reinforceable combat unit so far together with call in rifle squad), storms 37.

So its not general saying "they are cheaper to reinforce". Its highly depending. Once they were more expensive (eg commandos 32, grens 37 or so).
And also WH has cheapest upkeep for inf untill US got second supply yard upgrade up.


The reason why allied get many snipers in late stage is simply coz its the best way to stop or at least weaken assaults of Storms/grens (veted) which otherwise would overun most stuff, with vet 3 even AA tanks from CW.

The axis meanwhile have then their stg inf and tanks with top mounted MG42. There is not such a huge need to get snipers out to stop infantry.

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 859
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 03 Feb 2016, 13:50

The most common allied inf in late game is endless rifles and rangers from inf doc which doesn't care about snipers, 101s which don't care about them as well and commando which can't be hit by snipers when they activate smoke. Axis do suffer from snipers a lot because in late game most commons are storms and Luft paratroopers. And generally USA have lots of cool anti inf stuff, I don't think that they shall be "King sniper" faction.

I actually based this idea because a lot of players complain on sniper spam, if we look closer only USA do so.

User avatar
Warhawks97
Posts: 3555
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 21:45
Location: Germany

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Warhawks97 » 03 Feb 2016, 14:13

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:The most common allied inf in late game is endless rifles and rangers from inf doc which doesn't care about snipers, 101s which don't care about them as well and commando which can't be hit by snipers when they activate smoke. Axis do suffer from snipers a lot because in late game most commons are storms and Luft paratroopers. And generally USA have lots of cool anti inf stuff, I don't think that they shall be "King sniper" faction.

I actually based this idea because a lot of players complain on sniper spam, if we look closer only USA do so.



Besides me there is barely a inf player who spams rifle lmao. Or rangers..... Many go only for the expensive infiltration guy.

But most play just with few units and lots of others do not even build the supply yard. Ive been trying to teach more than 10 guys playing inf doc. But just one of them finally managed to controle "spam". Most stuck on jumbos, single ranger squads. If anything players spam then its emplacments. But simply "bunching" and spamming rifles and ranger is usless. It requires huge attention and micro to controle that all.

Also most use the medic truck only as retreat point. I am the one trying to tell inf players all the time to place three trucks (late game 5) accross the map to pick up wounded guys. Coz the losses in late games going so high that its necessary. Those rifles get put usually just into trenches as the players have reached their micro skill already. Maybe one or two squads do follow 2 or 3 ranger teams providing support with rifle nades but thats it.


I am always trying to explain how important inf doc is in teamplay, especially late game support. Mainly providing emplacment defense vs Panthers and stuff, medic trucks, off map arty and inf support. Lots of "infrastructure" stuff. 95% of players do not going to spend the menpower when it goes over the 750 peak which is quite stupid.

It takes me often lots of hours to get people so far with inf doc that they do their important job in teamfights which is in so far hard work as that this guy really need to be everywhere.


And AB.... lmao but besides you i dont see anyone playing AB. Its simply that "strange feeling" that you get a 415 MP squad which simply sucks at first. Nobody really knows that playing AB is like bring up a young crippled cangoroo untill it can jumb just like a healthy one in its best age (hope that english here is correct:P)

And RAF.... Who can play RAF that can make someone fear. Its you and Shadow. But even shadow got beaten quite fast. Is becomes dangerous in later stage and end of mid game.

Designfriemel is funny to play against sometimes as he brings up is final stand with RAF in late stage.

But in general RAF played by standard players is everything but dangerous. Playing RAF is 100% timing of abilties, unit abilties (smoke) and global. One wrong use of them and you get shred. Arty cromwell improved gameplay though.

Inf is "easy" as emplacment spam. But these masses arent dangerous unless they get microed well. The gap between being effective or just feeding the enemie isnt small.

RAF is timing, timing, timing. Fail once and you might get kicked your ass hard.

and AB..... only real experts play AB. For average players its too complex to understand that 415 MP are crap for a lont time of the game but still a must have to survive late game.




And sniper spam. Isnt it funny? At the one hand players complain about jeeps and schwimms that shred all inf that stays behind perfect cover. The we have "sniper complains". Just make jeeps/schwimm very fragile but cheap. So in case someone just spams recons and snipers (and i know many many many out there often just get two recons and two snipers+ captain) you spam cheap schimms/bikes/jeeps as hard counter to sniper abuse.

I am currently made my mod that way and its in testing phase. There a WH bike is a 150 MP and 5 fuel expensive sniper hard counter in case of sniper abuses.

Maybe think that way instead to nerf stuff into ground which sometimes is the only real option to deal with certain enemie units. Just every unit needs a "counter".

And since jeeps/schwimm do dominate all inf for a long time they cant get cheaper and thus we lack cheap options of sniper hardcounter when playing as axis. And damn i know that. I stuck in same situation already vs 5 snipers and 3 recons. Luckily i managed to spam bikes and puma (had luck in that case that i got bike instead of schwimm).

User avatar
Butterkeks
Posts: 492
Joined: 23 Dec 2014, 17:42
Location: Germany

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Butterkeks » 03 Feb 2016, 14:27

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:I actually based this idea because a lot of players complain on sniper spam, if we look closer only USA do so.


Well I am one of those "complainers", but have a closer look at it:

I'm not complaining about the possibility to build two snipers, or that their cost/efficency ratio is too high.

What I'm complaining about is the tactic of many players, get one pak, 2 snipers + captain + recon. Then only advance with recon so sniper can shoot. Move sniper + pak a few meters. Advance again with recon so sniper has more sight etc etc.

While this is extremely annyoing, it is also true that sometimes Snipers are Allies only way to defend against Axis elites.
That's imo also the reason why you see it more often done by allies.

It's a generell problem that many people have that "I have to win by any means" mentality, which also results in stuff like basearty etc.
(Just like that stupid "that map has high ammo income so we HAVE TO spam arty" bullshit. If players don't decide to do that bullshit even those maps can lead to a very nice and dynamic gameplay)

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 859
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 03 Feb 2016, 16:04

@Hawks

You don't have to spam rifles, 2 med trucks and you get infinite numbers of them. And since last patch came out everybody spam Rangers, garand buff + M6A3 zook, boosted their performance A LOT + they stopped loosing stickies after tree upgrade.

About AB, I was always saying that except me ( and 1impulse but he stopped playing long time ago ) nobody plays this doc because it's too complicated. Now when recoiless got removed there is no sense in choosing it at all, paratroopers need long time to become effective, airstrikes aren't better than RAF ones and with all this doc totally lacking anti-tank capabilities.

Regarding snipers I think that for US it's much easier to get them due to supply yard and their effectiveness is higher because axis inf is usually more expensive having longer reinforcement time. Also, simply from game experience, USA is the only faction which fields two snipers almost every single game. Let's stop here and see what others think.

kwok
Team Member
Posts: 1698
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby kwok » 03 Feb 2016, 18:29

Hm, to be honest I haven't had trouble vs ranger spam. The only trouble I ever have against inf doc is the mortar pits. I will admit inf doc is 10x more deadly in urban terrain, but nothing flame grenades can't solve. Thank god those are only reserved for AB.

Ouch. I thought I played AB really well...

Eh I use snipers from all factions. So, I don't know if I agree. I think snipers are really popular for allies right now because terror grens and luft are really really popular right now (which i STILL don't udnerstand why people think they're underpowered. play a different doc if you think they suck... it's really really contradictory). Snipers counter elite inf, that's why we get them because allies are expected the ridiculous grens to come storming in without cover.

User avatar
ShadowIchigo
Posts: 333
Joined: 26 Nov 2014, 20:25
Location: Philadelphia Born N Raized, US

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby ShadowIchigo » 03 Feb 2016, 18:40

Warhawks97 wrote:
Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:The most common allied inf in late game is endless rifles and rangers from inf doc which doesn't care about snipers, 101s which don't care about them as well and commando which can't be hit by snipers when they activate smoke. Axis do suffer from snipers a lot because in late game most commons are storms and Luft paratroopers. And generally USA have lots of cool anti inf stuff, I don't think that they shall be "King sniper" faction.

I actually based this idea because a lot of players complain on sniper spam, if we look closer only USA do so.



Besides me there is barely a inf player who spams rifle lmao. Or rangers..... Many go only for the expensive infiltration guy.

But most play just with few units and lots of others do not even build the supply yard. Ive been trying to teach more than 10 guys playing inf doc. But just one of them finally managed to controle "spam". Most stuck on jumbos, single ranger squads. If anything players spam then its emplacments. But simply "bunching" and spamming rifles and ranger is usless. It requires huge attention and micro to controle that all.

Also most use the medic truck only as retreat point. I am the one trying to tell inf players all the time to place three trucks (late game 5) accross the map to pick up wounded guys. Coz the losses in late games going so high that its necessary. Those rifles get put usually just into trenches as the players have reached their micro skill already. Maybe one or two squads do follow 2 or 3 ranger teams providing support with rifle nades but thats it.


I am always trying to explain how important inf doc is in teamplay, especially late game support. Mainly providing emplacment defense vs Panthers and stuff, medic trucks, off map arty and inf support. Lots of "infrastructure" stuff. 95% of players do not going to spend the menpower when it goes over the 750 peak which is quite stupid.

It takes me often lots of hours to get people so far with inf doc that they do their important job in teamfights which is in so far hard work as that this guy really need to be everywhere.


And AB.... lmao but besides you i dont see anyone playing AB. Its simply that "strange feeling" that you get a 415 MP squad which simply sucks at first. Nobody really knows that playing AB is like bring up a young crippled cangoroo untill it can jumb just like a healthy one in its best age (hope that english here is correct:P)

And RAF.... Who can play RAF that can make someone fear. Its you and Shadow. But even shadow got beaten quite fast. Is becomes dangerous in later stage and end of mid game.

Designfriemel is funny to play against sometimes as he brings up is final stand with RAF in late stage.

But in general RAF played by standard players is everything but dangerous. Playing RAF is 100% timing of abilties, unit abilties (smoke) and global. One wrong use of them and you get shred. Arty cromwell improved gameplay though.

Inf is "easy" as emplacment spam. But these masses arent dangerous unless they get microed well. The gap between being effective or just feeding the enemie isnt small.

RAF is timing, timing, timing. Fail once and you might get kicked your ass hard.

and AB..... only real experts play AB. For average players its too complex to understand that 415 MP are crap for a lont time of the game but still a must have to survive late game.




And sniper spam. Isnt it funny? At the one hand players complain about jeeps and schwimms that shred all inf that stays behind perfect cover. The we have "sniper complains". Just make jeeps/schwimm very fragile but cheap. So in case someone just spams recons and snipers (and i know many many many out there often just get two recons and two snipers+ captain) you spam cheap schimms/bikes/jeeps as hard counter to sniper abuse.

I am currently made my mod that way and its in testing phase. There a WH bike is a 150 MP and 5 fuel expensive sniper hard counter in case of sniper abuses.

Maybe think that way instead to nerf stuff into ground which sometimes is the only real option to deal with certain enemie units. Just every unit needs a "counter".

And since jeeps/schwimm do dominate all inf for a long time they cant get cheaper and thus we lack cheap options of sniper hardcounter when playing as axis. And damn i know that. I stuck in same situation already vs 5 snipers and 3 recons. Luckily i managed to spam bikes and puma (had luck in that case that i got bike instead of schwimm).





I think you are missing out that kwok is also a vicious and highly skilled AB player. I mean i never see anyone use AB like him. not even seen sukin take out axis base defenses with infantry the way kwok does. just a reminder to give him some credit that's all.

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 859
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 03 Feb 2016, 19:55

kwok wrote:Hm, to be honest I haven't had trouble vs ranger spam. The only trouble I ever have against inf doc is the mortar pits. I will admit inf doc is 10x more deadly in urban terrain, but nothing flame grenades can't solve. Thank god those are only reserved for AB.

Ouch. I thought I played AB really well...

Eh I use snipers from all factions. So, I don't know if I agree. I think snipers are really popular for allies right now because terror grens and luft are really really popular right now (which i STILL don't udnerstand why people think they're underpowered. play a different doc if you think they suck... it's really really contradictory). Snipers counter elite inf, that's why we get them because allies are expected the ridiculous grens to come storming in without cover.


I didn't say that ranger spam can cause any troubles, just wanted to point out that after changes rangers are being used a lot more often.



Also in old times Luft was way more popular than now + KCH instead of grens which were the most tasty target for snipers, so it's not like " now grens and Luft are really really popular". Just for US it's much easier to rebuild snipers and they have the greatest amount of them, that's why reloading time can be tuned down a little bit, my opinion though, than US players will use snipers less often investing res elsewhere, that's will foster higher game dynamic.

I wanted to suggest one more thing for PE, can it get a significant price reduction after building up a tank factory? Currently PE pays 350 mp and 10 fuel in order to upgrade a single point, that's god damn a lot, especially for ever MP hungry PE. So with tank factory price can be 200 mp ( + 50 for upgrade ) and 10 fuel.

@Shadow

The true AB King was 1impulse, too bad that he stopped playing.

Wake
Posts: 304
Joined: 07 Dec 2014, 17:22
Location: USA

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Wake » 03 Feb 2016, 23:13

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:I wanted to suggest one more thing for PE, can it get a significant price reduction after building up a tank factory? Currently PE pays 350 mp and 10 fuel in order to upgrade a single point, that's god damn a lot, especially for ever MP hungry PE. So with tank factory price can be 200 mp ( + 50 for upgrade ) and 10 fuel.

The true AB King was 1impulse, too bad that he stopped playing.


You have to remember that when PE pays 350 MP + 10 fuel to secure the point, they also get a MG42 with 360 degree coverage that instantly pins any infantry. It's the best way to stop airborne dropping in behind your lines or RAF gliders doing the same.

As for airborne, it has been a goal of mine to make them viable. I tried playing with them so many times, it's just that I keep on concluding that whatever Airborne can do, Inf doc can do better. The core of airborne is about getting 101st with BARs and Johnsons with high vet and the HQ squad behind them, always being at the front lines and occasionally going behind enemy lines. Then dropping an MG or AT gun if needed.

The thing is, 101st are still really cost-inefficient at 415 MP, it takes 180 munition to give them the Johnsons and BARs, they cost A LOT to reinforce, and the veterancy upgrade isn't until 8 CP. They also have the same problem with 82nd, in that they can't hit anything with their bazookas or recoiless rifles. They are so inaccurate.

And calling in AT guns or an MG? You have to get the spotter squad to do that, which costs 180 MP by itself, on top of the cost of the called-in units. This is already in a doc that is extremely starved for manpower, as the HQ squad costs 700 MP alone, and with a single 101st it's already over 1000 MP in costs. And the air strikes are also rare, because a player often has to spend munition on upgrading his 101st instead.

Airborne is just extremely hard to play, to the extent that I think they are bad because of it. I'm not really sure how to fix it. The only thing I can think of is reducing the price of the 101st and 82nd.

A really good example I can think of is on a 2v2 when I played vs kwok on the map Duclair. I was terror doc, and he was airborne. We both started getting high vet units, and eventually i had two vet 4 grenadiers and a vet 3 squad, while he had 101st with high vet too, and the HQ squad. The thing was, I could just run my grenadiers straight into his 101st and I would still win the battles. He would be forced to retreat. The worst part is, even if we both took the same amount of losses, I would still win, because my grenadiers are CHEAPER to reinforce than his airborne, and if I happen to lose an entire grenadier squad, I can build one for cheaper than he can build a new airborne squad. I also pay just 50 munition to get 4 StGs in my grenadier squads, whereas he has to pay at least 90 for a pair of Johnsons or BARs.

And then I started making Panthers and Stukas. He had no defense against them, as the Panther G is a hard counter to the entire Airborne doc. His 101st and 82nd couldn't even hit their shots with their AT weapons, and even if they did, they would bounce off. Kwok knows how bad the 101st and 82nd are at AT, so he gives the recoiless rifles to his airborne observation scout teams.
Image

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 859
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 03 Feb 2016, 23:48

In late game there are a lot of tanks and most of inf get abilities which remove supression, so this scout car just gets blown in a moment. Even if it's effective in some extent, I would consider it as PE feature. Cmon 350 mp for oping point is overprice, and what if sector is situated somewhere at the map corner? Than you don't get any benefits from this mg at all and just pay crazy price for point upgrade. Moreover, since at boys got changed there is no much sense in building second structure firstly, they counter scout cars so easy that it almost have lost its early game value (unless you face Americans only).

Regarding AB, I don't agree that they are MP starving, it's the opposite actually, I always can afford high casualties playing AB ( though before supply yard is built up and you drop a lot of squads you may feel lack of mp ). As for ammo scarce - absolutely yes, ammo for Fire nades, ammo for weapons, ammo for airstrikes, ammo for Hellcats HVAP shells, it's the most ammunition hungry Alied doc and without ammo it's simply helpless. What can be done? Recoiless shall be returned back to package at least, rise the limit on 101s ( currently only 4 are available ), slight price wouldn't hurt, also some time ago it was suggested to replace bugged thunderbolt bomb run to a rocker run similar to Typhoon, originally I was against it but now when AA became much better, why not?

And not only Panther G is a hard counter to AB, generally every axis heavy fucks you up because recoiless can't penetrate them and zook only hits a dirt.

One thing about grens, for 50 ammo you get only 2 stg 44, but not 4. And the worst trouble which I have fighting grens is that their Fire nade range is longer than those of Airborne.

User avatar
Wolf
Administrator
Posts: 994
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 16:01
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Wolf » 04 Feb 2016, 00:09

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:Regarding AB, I don't agree that they are MP starving, it's the opposite actually, I always can afford high casualties playing AB ( though before supply yard is built up and you drop a lot of squads you may feel lack of mp ). As for ammo scarce - absolutely yes, ammo for Fire nades, ammo for weapons, ammo for airstrikes, ammo for Hellcats HVAP shells, it's the most ammunition hungry Alied doc and without ammo it's simply helpless. What can be done?

SC "high" price is tradeoff for having pretty nice advantage (especially against US) early, so its almost as asking CW to have more something like that too, so I wouldn't really drop it to 200, we can talk about 300-275.

AB still has ammo + fuel drop for MP, exactly because they have kind of a lot of MP, so again, its a bit of diversity in the game. Same with recoiless / zooks etc. they got M18 which they did not have, with new system of weapon drop they are not really losing AT weapons here and there and I am pretty satisfied with it. Yes, they have it harder against tanks, so the only thing I can agree with is that they miss a lot from time to time. I wouldn't change 4 limit as AB is not supposed to be that spammy (unlike inf doc) and should consist of more unit types. HQ aura range was increased for that too.
Image

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 859
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 04 Feb 2016, 00:56

Before Hellcat was added recoiless could blow Panthers frontally and almost never bounced off pz4 j/h, so it got a harmony when recoiless got tuned down to a normal values adding M18 in return, removing one of them was HUGE exegaration and stupid from all sides ( already was worst handled AT, regarding ALL aspects including damage, accuracy, reloading time. General weakness of AB against tanks and with this you made 101's totally undropable behind enemy lines )

And weapon drop fix is not an argument at all, it's the same if I would say " Now storms aren't not loosing their StG 44 here and there so we can decrease the possible amount of MP44 from 6 per squad to only 3.

So, from my point of view this change was nothing but a bad joke mistake, there is no a single logical reason behind it, especially if we will look at who and how pushed this change.

"Big buddy with devs and the most respected member in community": - WTF!?!? I drove with my single Pz4 into fog of war and it got blown by airborne squad with 4 recoiless, wtf!?!? It can't be like this!!!! I never ever tried to play AB in pvp but I for sure know that it's OP! Because my opinion is important! *repeat X amount of times in all topics*

This lonely recoiless even looks like a laughing to a face. Yeah, drop 415 mp squad which is not better than 240 mp rifles, look at there package, there is an AT weapon, take it, you are cool, now kill the scout car, shit, it missed.....another fail........hit the dirt again, bingo! You hit it, what? Took only 50% of HP, well, shit, go and look for some schrecks on the field maybe.

Regarding scout car, 250 mp is ok, so you will pay 300 mp in total for upgrading each point.

And what do you guys think about replacing thunderbolt bombs with rockets ( only single run, patrol will still have bombs ) I think it's annoying as fuck when it hits right at the tank but deals no damage, this happens every third time.

P.S.glad to see that you are back on forum wolf.
Last edited by Sukin-kot (SVT) on 04 Feb 2016, 01:21, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Warhawks97
Posts: 3555
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 21:45
Location: Germany

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Warhawks97 » 04 Feb 2016, 01:10

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:
Regarding AB, I don't agree that they are MP starving, it's the opposite actually, I always can afford high casualties playing AB ( though before supply yard is built up and you drop a lot of squads you may feel lack of mp ).


Idk how many games i watched in your streams trying to learn AB but so far it was always like that:

1. Defending and get some res. M16 and greyhound+pak and inf squad will cover important map areas.
2. While you wait untill you get like 3 101st squads (old patch, one got all 6 rl, others only johnsons) and while relaxing and upgrading the supply yard completely your arty mate kept the opponent defenses busy with 2 or 3 75 mm HT´s, then priests.
3. When you got enough and when arty mate kept axis defense at a manageable level you softly start pushing with AB´s with johnson and snipers untill you get more and more vet.

This was what ive always seen so far in games you played AB. And it seems that this way (especially AB/RA) is the only real way to play AB (at least 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4)

But if you dont have an standard arty mate who does his job, playing without arty etc you would be forced to play more aggressive. But how to play aggressive when you drop rifle squads for 415 MP? And if arty mate doesnt exist or do a bad job the defenses and ammount of volks/grens/snipers would be just too many as that you could do something with 3 silly unvet 101st.

But if you dont get the 101st in the earlier stages you wont get a chance in late game coz in mid game you somehow must vet your 101st or they will never become really usefull. I played AB mostly with vehicles/rifles combined with calli jeeps. Later then M10, sherman HE and some single 101st squad supporting these tanks. That worked to a certain extent.

And not only Panther G is a hard counter to AB, generally every axis heavy fucks you up because recoiless can't penetrate them and zook only hits a dirt.


If they are too heavy and slow then AB is best against them as they have a realistic chance to get close enough for sticky. And again AB/RA combo wins the day.

One thing about grens, for 50 ammo you get only 2 stg 44, but not 4. And the worst trouble which I have fighting grens is that their Fire nade range is longer than those of Airborne.


He was talking about the 2 stgs for free and 2 for 50 ammo which together makes 4. So you spend 50 ammo and squad has 4 stgs.


Wolf wrote:With new system of weapon drop they are not really losing AT weapons here and there and I am pretty satisfied with it. Yes, they have it harder against tanks, so the only thing I can agree with is that they miss a lot from time to time.


Idk when you changed it. And idk when ive seen AB last but when i did the rl still dropped (not even seldomly iirc).

User avatar
Viper
Posts: 417
Joined: 06 Dec 2014, 23:18

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Viper » 04 Feb 2016, 01:23

this guy who you are mocking has already inlcuded this point since the beginning only for people like you ,
8) AB 101st squads to receive an RL upgrade instead of Thompsons probably for 40 ammo; therefore the RL values would be tuned back. (Confirmed by MarKr too)
-Topic reference; viewtopic.php?f=15&t=825

but looks like you have totally neglected this fact Sukin.

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 859
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 04 Feb 2016, 01:32

"If they are too heavy and slow then AB is best against them as they have a realistic chance to get close enough for sticky. And again AB/RA combo wins the day."

Besides Panther G I meant BK tiger, Panther A, KT, it's very difficult to put a stickie on them, especially when there is an ostwind or something behind them. And RAF does this job 10 times better anyway, gammon bomb instantly immobilizes a tank even if you threw it nearby + smoke allows to save some HP while approaching on a kitty.

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 859
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 04 Feb 2016, 01:40

seha wrote:this guy who you are mocking has already inlcuded this point since the beginning only for people like you ,
8) AB 101st squads to receive an RL upgrade instead of Thompsons probably for 40 ammo; therefore the RL values would be tuned back. (Confirmed by MarKr too)
-Topic reference; viewtopic.php?f=15&t=825

but looks like you have totally neglected this fact Sukin.


It's quite funny that you only appear when somebody trolls Tiger ( where did you forget Yafa btw ).

"this guy who you are mocking has already inlcuded this point since the beginning only for people like you" - I feel so honored!

But this way is not optimal, recoiless will require ammo again, that's what AB always lacks even now. And behind front line you won't be able to purchase it. And simply as this change was a mistake ( seriously, can somebody mention any valid reason why the worst at weapon carried by 415 mp rifles got twice reduced in numbers) it shall be backed up.

As for squads with 6rs: it had some diversity and gave a choice to a player: to fully equip a single squad with AT, taking a risk of loosing the entire AT power at once by arty/he/rocket hit or whatever, or spread rifles among all squads loosing their anti inf capabilities.

Outpacing somebody who was going to say that 6rs is OP or something, there performance wasn't higher than a simple WH at team with two schrecks, very often I have seen situations when 3 recoiless missed, others bounced off. Hawks will not let me lie because he watched a lot of streams when I used to play AB often and he have seen how single PZ 4 could bounce up to 10 recoiless in a row.

Also, in topic reference Mark said that recoiless got buff and that's why 1 got removed but that's not true. In old times recoiless could blow panthers and almost never bounced off pz4, I asked Wolf to fix it but he overdone so that rs became totally useless bouncing every second shot even from Ostwinds, in next patch he tuned it up ( still much worse than it was before )
Last edited by Sukin-kot (SVT) on 04 Feb 2016, 02:15, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Viper
Posts: 417
Joined: 06 Dec 2014, 23:18

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Viper » 04 Feb 2016, 01:49

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtGDlBQhlV0
It's quite funny that you only appear when somebody trolls Tiger ( where did you forget Yafa btw ).

in this old video uploaded by tiger , you can see how that i was actually playing against him ... so ya .. if you think i am tiger ; you must be a fool then !
tiger is only my friend and i respect him.and BTW He taught me every thing about this game .

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 859
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 04 Feb 2016, 02:06

No, I just wanted to say that you are one of the Tiger's peasants whom he was always sending here as pseudo supporters for his ideas, pretty much that.

Wake
Posts: 304
Joined: 07 Dec 2014, 17:22
Location: USA

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Wake » 04 Feb 2016, 02:41

I am opposed to the scout car cost decrease because that would make it way too cheap for what most players actually use it for - an early game vehicle that kills infantry very fast. But, I do agree that in late-game, the cost is too high for the secured territory. So how about, after the Logistik Kompanie upgrade (the one that costs 30 fuel and allows building the Panzer Support Kommand), reduce the scout car price to 250 MP/10 fuel. That way, early game balance is kept but in late game, when scout cars lose their usefulness, they become cheaper.

Sukin also mentioned sticky bombs and I've been saying this for years, why do PE get free AT grenades at the start of the game that blow up light vehicles in 1 hit with relatively long range for 20 munition, while Americans get sticky bombs that are more expensive at 25 munition, that have extremely short range and do almost no damage, and require an upgrade to get? Volksgrenadiers also get a molotov that is very similar to a sticky bomb but costs 15 munition and is available after Skirmish phase.

The sticky bomb price got reduced from 35 to 20 back in 4.8.5.0, but other than that I still see a valid point in that argument. I would like to see the removal of the upgrade for the sticky bomb, and just have it available for riflemen, Rangers, and 101st from the start. That would at least make it more on-par with PE AT grenades and Volks brandflasche. Do you guys agree?

However, it's not really a big problem, since I think that the game as a whole is actually quite balanced right now. I think some of the docs just need adjustments to make them all "viable", so that each doc is played as often as the others. Right now, I would say that the least-played docs are US Airborne, CW Royal Engineers, and Wehrmacht Defensive doc. They are played the least because they aren't as good as the other docs. Here's a list of redundancies I made.




Royal Engineers pt 1 - Oh, you want heavy tanks that kill infantry well and bounce off shells from most axis AT? Like a Churchill? Well actually, if you play US armor or infantry doc, you can get a Jumbo that does the exact same thing! And if you play armor doc, it also kills enemy tanks! And you also get everything else that inf and armor doc get!

Royal Engineers pt. 2 - Oh, you want cheap emplacements so that you can spam them? Well actually if you play US infantry doc, you can build 76mm AT emplacements everywhere, that are cheaper than 17 pounder emplacements, even after the "Cheaper Emplacement" upgrade. You also get a much better mortar pit and inf doc MG nests cost nearly the same as your Vickers MG nest even after the "Cheaper Emplacement" upgrade too! Did I mention that in addition to this, you can build Jumbos and truly spam infantry? You also get snipers, off-map arty, and CQB squads!

Airborne - I don't really need to say much since many people have said it before, but basically, 101st and 82nd are too expensive, and they can't hit anything with their AT weapons. You also need a lot of munition if you want your 101st to be any good. By the way, if you spend all your munition on your 101st then you can't call in air strikes. If you want "elite" allied infantry or even just airborne troops, then go play RAF. Those guys also usually have spare munition for air strikes. They're also not defenseless against heavy axis tanks, since they get 17 pounders and fireflies. And if you play Airborne doc for multipurpose, tough, allied inf that shreds infantry... Go play infantry doc. You can get Rangers that are cheaper than 101st and 82nd (much cheaper later on) that can get bazookas that actually hit their targets, and you can upgrade these bazookas, and they can camouflage for ambushes. And everything else in inf doc.

Wehrmacht Defensive Doctrine - This one is probably not as "bad" as Airborne or Royal Engineers, it's just that def doc is seldom played because Blitzkrieg and Terror are so much better. You can build bunkers, but all that does is secure your points. You don't gain anything. You are purely support for your team mates. Playing def doc in 1v1 is probably suicide. Sure, you can get 105mm LeFH howitzers early on, but since it's a static emplacement, it's just going to get countered by mobile enemy arty units. If you want the Elefant, then go play Tank Hunter doc. The only real thing I see in def doc that saves it from being much worse is the cover upgrade bonus and the Stupa/Grille. Do you think def doc needs any changes? I don't really have any suggestions for them.
Image

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 859
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 04 Feb 2016, 03:04

@Wake

About scout car, that's what I meant from the beginning, price reduction after certain upgrade or when tank factory is deployed.

Regarding docs I fully agree except AB, it's not that bad, for me, if it will be fine if 101s will get their recoiless back + rocket run instead bugged bombs.

As for def doc I dunno really, it's totally lacking any offensive capabilities and defense stregth was stroghly reduced ( permanent mg bunkers limitation + bunkers more vulnerable to satchels, flaks got range reducing and lesser arty resistance as well ) So, yeah I really don't have any constructive idea here, simply because SE is better in everything that Defence pretends to do ( setting mine fields, tank buster with 88 mm, advanced repair for combat units, better arty ). As you said, the only real reason to pick def is Stupa/Grille and.... I would say med bunkers but not infantry bonuce, even with this bonuce inf is still weaker than storms or terror grens, this doc really needs to receive some special touch.

User avatar
Terence's Mouth
Posts: 133
Joined: 07 Aug 2015, 18:10

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Terence's Mouth » 04 Feb 2016, 09:46

The 101st realy need the second recoiles back in my opinion

User avatar
Eldrak1911
Posts: 134
Joined: 22 Jun 2015, 10:44
Location: France, Bourgogne.
Contact:

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Eldrak1911 » 04 Feb 2016, 11:27

About the Royal Engineers :

Everything down there is just a proposition, to see if we can think of it :

I think that royal engineer could be the breakthrough doc, for cw, even for allies in general.

But for that, we need some real big tank. Churchills are those tanks, but they are still way too easy to destroy. I don't mean that they should be the allied PzkW Tiger, but, imo, they should be almost unpenetrable at long range. At medium range, they would be penetrable, and at close... Well, if a tank is at close range with an at gun, we know what it means for the tank ^^

So, for churchills : More resistant, but slow, realy, slow. And a average/bad at gun. That way, churchill would be good vs infantry and light vehicles, but need other tanks or at infantry to deal with other tank. > Teamplay.

About Engineers. The RE are way overpriced. Ok, they good for reparation. But, right now, i'm more willing to use my mp and ammunition for some standard engi + Reparation upgrade than use re. Because of that. Simply, because they are way overpriced. To solve that, without transforming them into a kind of über Mac Giver, i propose to give to RE doc, Royal engineer, as starting engi. Like Hawks' proposed for Luft. And a little drop price, let' say from 450 mp to 420 ?

Oh, you want heavy tanks that kill infantry well and bounce off shells from most axis AT? Like a Churchill? Well actually, if you play US armor or infantry doc, you can get a Jumbo that does the exact same thing!

Except that Jumbo can be pretty easily penetrated.

Oh, you want cheap emplacements so that you can spam them? Well actually if you play US infantry doc, you can build 76mm AT emplacements everywhere, that are cheaper than 17 pounder emplacements

Except that 17pounder is a way better gun at penetrating, at least at start.

You also get a much better mortar pit
Except that re is not meant to play arty, at least i'm believing it (am i wrong ?)

Did I mention that in addition to this, you can build Jumbos and truly spam infantry? You also get snipers, off-map arty, and CQB squads!
Ok, that is true. Re lacks some versability i suppose.

Now, about Werhmacht Def Doc : I personally love that doc, you got good emplacements, good bunkers, pantherturm (♥) etc.
But that's true that there is something wrong, because Terror got some usefull arty. Stuka zu fuss, off map V1 and Fire barrage etc.

So, terror is better at this.

But imo, defensive must more be a wall (Like GoT wall if you want). A true dam. To achieve this, bunker should get a small price drop (like 10 mp less), getting more resistant (not the panterthurm), and in return, completely losing perma mg to balance it. Perhaps a small price drop in MG Team too.

That way, defensive doc would be at true wall. But could still be break with enough power. (A simple phosphore barrage from a priest, and your bunker is empty, useless. A single good grenade, same. An engi team with a flamethrower, same.

A wall, but with some weakness to use.
Hey, i'm a bat, man !

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 859
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Final initial list! v4.95/v5.00

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 04 Feb 2016, 12:43

@Eldrak

You actually should start to play pvp games before suggesting something here, because currently your suggestions are simply off, we are trying to balance the game not for a compstomp you know.

Of course you love def doc because you can build bunker with mg42 + emplaced flak and for AI it will be unbreakable defence, but it doesnt work like this in 3v3 and 4v4 games with real people dude.

Eldrak1911 wrote:But imo, defensive must more be a wall (Like GoT wall if you want). A true dam. To achieve this, bunker should get a small price drop (like 10 mp less), getting more resistant (not the panterthurm), and in return, completely losing perma mg to balance it. Perhaps a small price drop in MG Team too.


Lmao, 10 MP price drop and no perma mg in return, seems legit, absolutely fair buff :D Also, bunker is more resistant than Panterum ( Panterum is crap actually, costs a lot, but gets blown by arty extremely easy )


Return to “General - CoH1 / BKMOD1”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests