What is missing? 4950!

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Lol hawks:D Superman

[Warhawks97]

I completely agree with Sukin and Panzer as they actually just repeated what Terence said before which was 100% correct.. we were Blitz and Luft docs vs double Inf doc players, and they were not any expert even! We lacked good arty while they had such a magical kind of capability in establishing their emplacements in absolutely NO TIME like also if they all costed NOTHING being for free... I had an attack with my Storms combined with a Tiger tank as well as in the support of 2 Maultiers when I killed 3 emplacements (Yes; I am not saying the emplacements are too tough to kill) but the problem then after it was that I had to do some repairs and to reinforce my squads, I mean I had to retreat for a bit.. meanwhile during this short time... Surprisingly I found out that the 3 emplacements of which I just destroyed were all built AGAIN by the same player!!! This is no fun, no logic and total silly. The Inf doc is the most played US doc for now...
If the Def doc is same though that is something I highly doubt to be honest.. then plz nerf both!!

Note:-
ACTUALLY WE WERE THE WINNERS OBVIOUSLY AT THE EARLY STAGE OF THE GAME, BUT THEN THEY PUSHED US BACK ON THE LATE STAGE OF THE GAME IN SUCH A GREAT COME BACK WHILE OUTNUMBERING US HAVING MUCH MORE INF, MUCH MORE ARTY AND EVEN MUCH MORE EMPLACEMENTS TOO...

Again. vs double inf doc the last thing i would use are Tigers. I would get my last Building very late anyway. Vs Emplacments you must kill them at once (arty+storms+tank). But when you killed them prevent the enemie to get new. For example hold an storm squad in reserve that can harrass and prevent to get a new emplacment once again.

Luft doc is a very good skirmish and harass doc. You make the big punch and luft hides some gebirgs in next crater that kills the pios if they want to get a new emplacment.

Both you of you are no good skirmisher. You do one big assault and then having a "break".

Luft inf, mortars, snipers, cheaper tanks or stugs, cheap PE 20 mm Vehicles.... they all are great to harrass the enemie and to keep the enemie down untill you do the next push. Dont stop fighting between your major attacks.

I mean after your attack (in which you would have used ostwind+Tank IV instead of a tiger) dont make full retreat to base. Kill the emplacments and hold the ground with two tanks (with movment, not using tanks as static weapon plattform) to prevent a new production of them


@lehr and tiger: You expected blobbs from inf doc. Why does that mean to choose luft? Srsly.... Normal Pgrens with 20 mm vehicle and G43/lmg42 can deal with blobbs. Leig 18 is more than awesome vs blobbs. Ostwinds+Tank IV shredding blobbs. Ambushed storms and SS squads. HMG42 + stg inf.


There is no reason to go luft doc just because of inf doc blobbs... my favorit PE inf doc is SE anyway. gren squads with different weapons, SS squads, Flame nades....You wouldnt had to get wespe or hummel even. Inf with Sturmführer and some upgrades, 20 mm vehicle and 120 mm mortar or 210 nebler.

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

All i can say is many People stopped Play, and we all I no axis fag but i like axis to Play call whatever you want, i get tired of inf slowly to.. the last game we had even sp outgunned all tanks even a kt!

[MarKr]

So i am forced Play big maps? because inf doc? and res? No, ever tough off call in arty? upon mortar hts? or stuka? wich mostly 1 Shell kill them? ranger spamm? zook spamm? whats with all this... a mortar not survive without vet at start, in late/medium game and as said how should we get any ammo when as said they has empalcement on every good Point? and not just 1,mostly 4-5 Emplacement on one sector? also the at outrange the ht mortar:)

The advantages of playing on bigger maps are summed up here (viewtopic.php?f=27&t=736) if you read it carefully you'll see that bigger maps from big part solve the issue with emplacement spam because players need to cover much bigger space which costs much more resources. So no, you are not forced to play big maps just as you are not forced not to play 1vs1 games but the mod simply works better no bigger maps and in 2vs2 and bigger games.

Also

No, ever tough off call in arty? upon mortar hts? or stuka? wich mostly 1 Shell kill them? ranger spamm? zook spamm? whats with all this...

Are you telling me that your opponents were able to cover the whole map with 4-5 emplacements per sector (even if only the most important sectors) and at the same time they had enough resources to shower you with offmap arty, spam Rangers and buy tons of zooks? What were you doing the whole time that they got so much resources?

The thing is that gameplay changed for Axis in the way that it is no longer so much easier to play Axis than Allies. People are not used to this because for years it was enough to build some expensive units, place them somewhere (often even without cover) and just wait to kill Allies unit (even in cover). Now Axis still have advantages in many aspects but the previously working easy tactics do not make you victorious anymore...at least not that easily as before.

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

Ask tiger he can proof it i forgot to set in this link to my commentary.. viewtopic.php?f=16&t=823&view=unread#unread

[MarKr]

Ask tiger he can proof it

I don't mean to nag but few weeks ago Tiger made a topic how it is impossible to play WH BK doc anymore because (reason 1,2,3...) and two days later he made another post about how winning with WH BK doc is possible and cool...So I am sure he will confirm anything that he curently dislikes.

Anyway...

SP has more range than the KT.. funny!

Hm...so the strongest US tank, which is also one-time call-in should always lose to KT? Or what is the point here? And most importantly, what were the circumstances? I could say "So...My Pershing got destroyed by two shots from Axis 37mm gun? Funny!" (but not saying that those were two shots from ambush position to the rear which changes the sound of the whole sentence a lot)

I maintained my KT alive as long as possible.

Highly subjective as other player might have been able to keep it alive longer (or shorter of course).

V1 again hits directly the SP but yet no damage at all o.O

Yeah, this one is weird, will check it.

The Inf doc player was like RA doc, RE doc and Luft doc all in one at the same time

This is huge exagaration.
...

[Krieger Blitzer]

It is definitely almost impossible to play as Blitz doc specifically against the Inf doc or even the Armor doc sometimes once u fail the early game stage! As Terror, the situation would be much better so often... And btw I have never said for a while recently that the Blitz doc is now 'fine' anyhow after claiming 2 days earlier on the replay named as "OMG" that it has become too difficult.. as that even through the other following game of which u r now referring on called as "Tiger is ready to Blitz"; I still mentioned there that it's very hard yet even if against only average players.

The battle between my KT and the SP lasted for too long, once I attack him.. another he attacks me... Both tanks are bouncing off each other which is pretty realistic and quite balanced so far. However that the problem was that he survived the V1 on his head and not just that; as he was able to out-range my Vet2 KT using the Command car until I lost!! Come on. Even the KT is not available usually except for a single one time or maximum 2... As u will never collect the enough res.

It's absolutely not any kind of a huge exaggeration, the Inf doc is currently the most played doc of ALL like it has been always the same actually... Very fking easy to play!

[Warhawks97]

All i can say is many People stopped Play, and we all I no axis fag but i like axis to Play call whatever you want, i get tired of inf slowly to.. the last game we had even sp outgunned all tanks even a kt!

cant confirm. Ive seen people back in the game which i havent seen playing since months and years.

Even some guys from my very first clan which stopped with BK like two years ago played coh again (few mins ago).

And all others are just playing as frequently as they always does in my steam FL. Maybe you can give me some names of those who "stopped".

[Warhawks97]

All i can say is many People stopped Play, and we all I no axis fag but i like axis to Play call whatever you want, i get tired of inf slowly to.. the last game we had even sp outgunned all tanks even a kt!

cant confirm. Ive seen people back in the game which i havent seen playing since months and years.

Even some guys from my very first clan which stopped with BK like two years ago played coh again (few mins ago).

And all others are just playing as frequently as they always does in my steam FL. Maybe you can give me some names of those who "stopped".

And yes.... the KT. Funny that Tiger is the guy who defends it so hard. I would have removed that thing long time ago already (and instead would have slightly buffed the normal one, but just a bit).

So discuss with Tiger why he wants to keep the SP. Its his "allied Tiger" i think.


But gunwise they are pretty equal. The range etc is all the same actually. The pen power against each other. The KT has a faster reload speed than SP (more than 1 second faster) and can stan AT gun fire and zooks a lot better than SP can.

With vet the KT gets better due to abilities like static mode etc.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Static mode seem to be useless so far.. I am defending the existence of the SP because it's not a balance issue anyhow, just that somehow it can be having more range is actually the main problem!

I would delay the Static mode to Vet lvl 3 and then instead allowing earlier the Accurate Long Shot on Vet lvl 2 ALSO for the KT on the other hand...

[Warhawks97]

Static mode seem to be useless so far.. I am defending the existence of the SP because it's not a balance issue anyhow, just that somehow it can be having more range is actually the main problem!

I would delay the Static mode to Vet lvl 3 and then instead allowing earlier the Accurate Long Shot on Vet lvl 2 ALSO for the KT on the other hand...

xD. I just did bet 10 euros with a mate that this suggestion would come:D You made me ten euros richer. Dont worry, you dont know this mate, its an rl friend:P

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

And yes.... the KT. Funny that Tiger is the guy who defends it so hard. I would have removed that thing long time ago already (and instead would have slightly buffed the normal one, but just a bit).

Yet tiger and me bet too.. we both won :,D you wrote a wall of a text.. or atleast deffing allie with arguments... However Tiger defends and spare us Just some more arty battles, Sp should stay! giving tank instead of sp 105mm is just making more arty games boring as hell, no good idea

[MarKr]

It is definitely almost impossible to play as Blitz doc specifically against the Inf doc or even the Armor doc sometimes once u fail the early game stage!

BK mod is not made for 1vs1 so one doc being in disadvantage against another doc is expected. So this kind of argument is irrelevant. Also if you fail the early game stage, the game is hard (almost impossible) to win with any doctrine (if both players are aproximately on the same XP level).

And btw I have never said for a while recently that the Blitz doc is now 'fine' anyhow after claiming 2 days earlier on the replay named as "OMG" that it has become too difficult.. as that even through that other following replay of which u r now referring on called as "Tiger is ready to Blitz"; I still mentioned there that it's very hard yet even if against only average players.

You did not say "too difficult" you said "Late game the Allies are simply unbeatable!
This was my last game as Blitz doc or maybe even as Wh.. just no more." And two days later you managed to beat unbeatable Allies...Oxymoron as hell.

The battle between my KT and the SP lasted for too long, once I attack him.. another he attacks me... Both tanks are bouncing off each other which is pretty realistic balanced so far.

Ok so you say that SP vs KT in 1on1 battle are balanced. Fine.

as he was able to out-range my Vet2 KT using the Command car until I lost!!

And here it comes - SP outranged KT BECAUSE OF THE COMMAND CAR BONUS. That means the battle was actually 2on1 (SP+Command Car vs KT)...Why didn't you bring something to even the odds? Why haven't you used some support for your KT? That's the same as if you put against each other two infantry squads and one would have nearby Command unit and then said that the one with command unit is OP because it won.

Even the KT is not available usually except for a single one time or maximum 2... As u will never collect the enough res.

Given what I just wrote this is not relevant. Your logic says that KT, even though it is not limited by game engine, is a rare unit because it is still limited by available resources and therefore should be able to win against SP supported by command car. By this same logic SP should be much stronger and thus able to win fair and square against KT even without Command car buff, because it is limited by game engine and thus even rarer (is this the corect comparative form from "rare"? ) and even if it was not, then it would be limited by resources too.

It's absolutely not any kind of a huge exoneration, the Inf doc is the currently the most played doc of ALL

Are you really saying that this is absolutely true without exagerating?

The Inf doc player was like RA doc, RE doc and Luft doc all in one at the same time

That would mean that Infantry doc player has access to artillery pieces with extended range (RA), also with a SPG simillar to Priest(RA), needs to call in special infantry squad to use VT (Luft), can reinforce their elite infantry anywhere on the map(Luft), the infantry comes equipped with very strong weapons(luft), can build emplaced AT guns capable of one-shotting heavy tanks(RE), it is capable to reinforce those emplacements and make them cheaper(RE), has tanks with very strong armour(RE+Luft), sits on mountain of ammo and fuel but always lacks MP(RE), has airstrikes available (Luft)...I guess you will say that you meant that Infantry doctrine has elements of those you listed but that could be said about other doctrines too.

[Krieger Blitzer]

as he was able to out-range my Vet2 KT using the Command car until I lost!!

And here it comes - SP outranged KT BECAUSE OF THE COMMAND CAR BONUS. That means the battle was actually 2on1 (SP+Command Car vs KT)...Why didn't you bring something to even the odds? Why haven't you used some support for your KT? That's the same as if you put against each other two infantry squads and one would have nearby Command unit and then said that the one with command unit is OP because it won.

The KT is much more expensive, later available and doesn't have a command car to buff it... It has the Accurate Long Shot instead.. which is almost impossible to reach anytime!

[MarKr]

So...what? You consider that to be a reason why KT should win against SP+Command car combo? And the question still stands - where were your support units for KT?

[kwok]

Did Markr just reference my post? You sure know how to make the fan girls feel good about themselves, Markr.

I still don't understand the difficulty in stopping an emplacement spam... Does no one use smoke? Does no one use arty? Does no one use bundle grenades/satchels? I've never had a problem with emplacements playing this game, and maybe it's because of my own personal style. But if you know they're emplacement spamming, it really isn't difficult to counter build. But, it seems like everyone just has this formulaic style where they do a specific build order and if it doesn't work, it's the fault of the game.

[kwok]

TIGER GET OFF THE FORUM AND GREEN UP!

[Krieger Blitzer]

So...what? You consider that to be a reason why KT should win against SP+Command car combo? And the question still stands - where were your support units for KT?

I think I supported my KT very well if u watched the game, we just made a comparison between the KT and the SP prices there on that replay topic.. where we all figured out how MUCH more expensive the KT actually is...

The KT is not supposed to beat the SP when it's combined by the Command car; just that the KT should cost slightly less in MP being allowed to use the Accurate Long Shot earlier as well. That's all I think!

@Kwok;
Haha ok I am back to the lobby now ^^

[Warhawks97]

The SP was introduced into game to fight axis heavy tanks (od devs said for late game balance). So it just does what its supposed to to.

Its like complaining that a HMG42 shreds and ranger. Or that an HE sherman kills infantry... or That an AA tanks can kill airplane with anti tank rockets.



And as said as option: Remove SP, buff normal pershing. The Battle Persh vs Panther would then end faster as the Persh wouldnt bounce anymore with HVAP rounds against Panther.


And at the end the SP called the off map arty support to kill the SP. I think KT had simply some wrong aiming priorities and aimed the inf instead the SP.

And the normal engagments forced the SP to retreat. the SP attacked a damage KT, bounced some rounds and had to use off map arty strike. So 1 vs 1 would probably go to KT, esspecially with vet steps.

[Terence's Mouth]

I didnt read everything here but i realy want to tell you this:

The Inf and Tank fights should be the most important fights in the mod and everything else should be secondary.
The artillery and Emplacements shouldnt be stronger or shouldnt be able to rule a game and decide about the winner and looser.

Its a change in that mod that is realy missing i think because still bombing/camp tactics are better than manouvers or skill.

[Warhawks97]

I didnt read everything here but i realy want to tell you this:

The Inf and Tank fights should be the most important fights in the mod and everything else should be secondary.
The artillery and Emplacements shouldnt be stronger or shouldnt be able to rule a game and decide about the winner and looser.

Its a change in that mod that is realy missing i think because still bombing/camp tactics are better than manouvers or skill.

Sure. But this is not allowed to happen anymore then. Otherwise people will keep using emplacment as long as axis inf often wins even from far inferior positions against superior placed allied inf.

So Positioning would become more important than "Rambo" inf rushes and the cost and performence difference gap between allis and axis would need to get closes a bit.

A inf squad (no matter of which cost) with lmgs and good cover would be a very stable defense against enemie attacking infantry. Flanking, vehicle support, movment etc would have to be the new BK reality.

So emplacment are not too cheap or too strong, just they cant get overruned so easily like these veted and well equiped allied infantry with vet training.



Btw. What more noobish? using emplacments and arty or this?:

[Krieger Blitzer]

Idiot, this moment when u just picked up those screen shots to my units.. I was waiting to catch up the game cuz of lagging... I think that's obvious enough; or r u telling me that I would have left them all to walk forever and then die like this??!! I caught it up a while after it finally when they reached the location I ordered.

Fun fact:-
Those 3 Grens hopefully didn't die even btw, each got Vet3 and until the end

[Warhawks97]

"Why you didnt hind me about my inf"

There was no lag message which occure and meanwhile you controled your KT. So yeah... you forgot about it and they made it by their own.... but not because of skill.

Only lehr had a bugged AT gun but that was all. This units got forgot. And it doesnt matter actually. fact is they walked without cover into two vet ranger squads and green cover and lmg etc and they still won. So doesnt matter if forgot or lag... they dont need to be controled well to be effective. Un-microed axis inf often beats microed and superior positioned allied inf.

[Krieger Blitzer]

It wasn't me who lagged, Commissar was; as he hanged the whole game at this point when the command order got dramatically delayed... Neither any of us retreated back with his units!

Regarding the sentence "Why u didn't hint me about my inf" was that because Panzer didn't give any markers.. even after the game resumed.

[Warhawks97]

It wasn't me who lagged, Commissar was; as he hanged the whole game at this point when the command order got dramatically delayed... Neither any of us retreated back with his units!

Regarding the sentence "Why u didn't hint me about my inf" was that because Panzer didn't give any markers.. even after the game resumed.

during that time no other order was "delayed". Your tanks and enemie tanks acted instantly on orders.

And why he didnt retreat the rangers? LOL? He simply expected to win. I wouldnt have retreat either because it first seems to be a clear victory for the rangers. Vet, ammount and that they stand in close range with lmg and thompson.... just everything was in their favour.... but they lost still.


Also you did let them staying arround as you seem to be busy a bit with KT. Then you put retreat button and inf reacted immediatly and then you typed that.

I dont belive that more than 1 hour long all your orders got executed immediatly, just in this single moment with such an fail.


And still it doesnt matter: Axis basic inf kills best US inf even when all odds are against them.