What is missing? 4950!

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

Just in case, i called in Henschels To a non vet Churchill spamm, They all hull down think off what happened? maybe 1 of 5 got only 25% dmg? what in hell? and oh cmon my 88.... 4 88 shoot it one with ap at the heck in Close up yet no Penetration? wtf? shreks has no Chance vs a hulled down Churchill btw, my shreks shoot the ground or instantly bounced now think off what happened... all died... after instant retreat even.. oh cmon. man i told tiger so often when he streamed me fuck ppl wich say "ab sucks", "Re sucks" ofc, i noticed.... you guys think it but face it b4 you think...

[Krieger Blitzer]

Just in case, i called in Henschels To a non vet Churchill spamm, They all hull down think off what happened? maybe 1 of 5 got only 25% dmg? what in hell? and oh cmon my 88.... 4 88 shoot it one with ap at the heck in Close up yet no Penetration? wtf? shreks has no Chance vs a hulled down Churchill btw, my shreks shoot the ground or instantly bounced now think off what happened... all died... after instant retreat even.. oh cmon. man i told tiger so often when he streamed me fuck ppl wich say "ab sucks", "Re sucks" ofc, i noticed.... you guys think it but face it b4 you think...

+1

Yes, such a very important point u have just hinted on as I completely forgot to mention about the fking hulled down Churchills too which are literally indestructible even with planes or 88s actually... I could confirm what u r claiming now.. as I watched all these through ur own stream! Yet they are still afraid to give the Accurate Long Shot ability just a single 1 Vet lvl earlier for Tigers O_O

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

Plus the hulldown ability is for free and has no real recharge time means, they can drive and see "oh shit a tank come lets hull down" then they going up and same Story again... and even if they infront of a base they hull down and yet again 1 second later they hull down in your base ! so atleast Change its recharge time...

[Warhawks97]

Just in case, i called in Henschels To a non vet Churchill spamm, They all hull down think off what happened? maybe 1 of 5 got only 25% dmg? what in hell? and oh cmon my 88.... 4 88 shoot it one with ap at the heck in Close up yet no Penetration? wtf? shreks has no Chance vs a hulled down Churchill btw, my shreks shoot the ground or instantly bounced now think off what happened... all died... after instant retreat even.. oh cmon. man i told tiger so often when he streamed me fuck ppl wich say "ab sucks", "Re sucks" ofc, i noticed.... you guys think it but face it b4 you think...

+1

Yes, such a very important point u have just hinted on as I completely forgot to mention about the fking hulled down Churchills too which are literally indestructible even with planes or 88s actually... I could confirm what u r claiming now.. as I watched all these through ur own stream! Yet they are still afraid to give the Accurate Long Shot ability just a single 1 Vet lvl earlier for Tigers O_O

@Hawks;
U r misleading, the command vehicles are not even necessary for the Allies... U have stationary modes for those tanks of which are greatly enough of out-ranging the Axis tanks so easily.. while u could protect them with Scotts, Quad 50 HTs and dozens of emplacements too!

Hull down requires CP´s. It reduces incoming accuracy, taken damage, received penetration. Thats the point of hull down and thats even a a mentioned tactic in "Tank tactic books". Hull down tanks are very hard to hit and mainly for defensive purpose.

Guess what? I and shadow once shoot at a Jagdpanzer IV/70 in hull down pos with 17 pdr, 76 mm and schrecks. It took 5 mins shooting to kill it (engine was destroyed) and 2 pen hits didnt kill it.


Also, which modes you talking about?

Allis TD get + 5 range in Ambush. Axis get + 10. So you can blaim only jacks Stat mode and firefly stat mode.
Marders get range and accuracy and rof buff in stat mode as well and they cost just 360 and have MG that kills inf.

Elephant and Jagdpanther have 65 range at default (which i want up to 70), KT has 70 and 75 in stat mode. The Nashorn in ambush something arround 80 or 85 range.


So there are on allied side jacks B and Firefly which can boost range without command units. But both are expensive and fragile and have no chance vs inf. The SP has KT range and The axis TD in ambush have 70 range, allis 65 and Jacks A just 60 in ambush.

The thing is, that static modes have also cons as they cant move and incoming accuracy is increased and it has a cooldown. Just allis fear sudden schrecks more than most axis td have to fear sudden zooks.



Also regarding this 88 example: The Crocc is now esspecially designed to crack exactly such heavy defenses. Thats the entire purpose of it now. And we all agreed that he should work that way instead being a "Tiger killer" with armor that get penetrated by small 75 mm guns sometimes. It now has simply massive armor and kills infantry and defenses. It has clear cons like low speed etc. Thing is that speed and flexibility doesnt matter as much in 1 vs 1 as in teamfights where you can get arround and attack his back space before he reaches your base.


But there are lots of options to harass CW before the ace comes. Mortar HT´s with flame nades, infantry with schrecks and faust, snipers etc. So an 88 should hold all RE tanks. And instead getting 4 of them, just get ambushed schreck squads which have also Panzerfaust and much lower upkeep. So there are option to fight down RE long before it gets the crocc and Hull down.

As a trade off a suggestion:

Hull down ability possible only in friendly or neutral territory but not on enemie ground. So RE wouldnt be able to build a "defense" on enemie ground. It would still be able to heavily defend neutral ground already.

@Armacalic;
I don't give a fk about my own credibility.. u r even less than to be considered as rubbish. So just get lost out of my face now! U have nothing to do regarding balance over here even!! U never do nothing except is to just stalk on me everywhere... U r running behind or after every sentence I type anywhere located at any topic of the whole forums. Can't see any more comments of urs found on any other topics except those of which I am participating in!!!

Wow.. he can feel free to write. In old forums i had endless of balance discussions with guys that never ever played a single pvp game.

[MarKr]

Yet they are still afraid to give the Accurate Long Shot ability just a single 1 Vet lvl earlier for Tigers O_O

It was said few posts ago that the Accurate Long Shot gives absolutely no buff to penetration so it does not improve the cahnces against Churchills. Why do you keep mentioning it? It has absolutely no relevance.

Why do we hear about "indestructible" Churchills after ... how long since patch release? Two weeks? One would guess that such a little thing as indestructible unit would upset more people sooner. Also, guys, the changelog clearly says:

- All Churchills take more damage from Goliaths

Golitahs are small, relatively fast, most (maybe all?) tank guns have accuracy nerf against them while moving and can be camoed...especially dangerous to Hulledowned tank.
That nobody builds them? Hardly an counter-argument.

But maybe they could get some cooldown on the Hulldown ability...mybe also some delay before its deactivation, right now they just "jump out" ready to go. It would give more space for flanking...

Hull down ability possible only in friendly or neutral territory but not on enemie ground. So RE wouldnt be able to build a "defense" on enemie ground. It would still be able to heavily defend neutral ground already.

This could be taken into consideration...

[Krieger Blitzer]

Clearly I wasn't actually complaining about Churchills in the first hand, as all what happened is just that Panzer hinted about them.. when I then also added saying that this is another reason beside all the previous ones of which I have already mentioned before... Of why I am really in need of the Accurate Long Shot earlier for Tigers so that I could hopefully gain this 'deserved kind of possibility' to deal from such far distances specifically as the Ace Tiger with or I mean against those Churchills more especially the Croc one in order not to be forced to get too close being immediately immobilized in no time!

[kwok]

Churchills are pretty darn expensive... To be honest, to let someone spam Churchills I think is quite a blunder already.
Personally, I never had a problem vs hull down Churchills with shreks in this patch. P4's sure, but I never expected a P4 to pen a churchill anyways. Tigers and panthers? Eh, they take longer but if a churchill is hulled down, just play the range correctly. You'll kill it eventually without much scratch if it just sits there.
And yeah. Goliaths work pretty well against churchills.

The deactivation delay would be pretty nice though. Just cuz I think it's silly that they jump out.

Btw, realistically, hull down isn't about improving armor or protection. it's using defilade to hide the tank. So "realistically" hulling down a tank would probably be more like a recieved accuracy buff rather than an armor buff. I guess in BKmod it's building defilade around the tank which, probably realistically would take longer than the few seconds it does in game. Not making balance comments, just wanted to bring it up when warhawks mentioned "tank tactics books". I try to do it in ARMA as much as I can. But, it's hard to coordinate that. My friends and I are noobs.

[Krieger Blitzer]

The subject or I mean the whole discussion is primarily about the point number 4 anyways and not about Churchills btw.. as that this was only just another reason in my opinion why it would be absolutely fine probably even as Sukin once said as it can't be anyhow a disastrous balance breaking change like Hawks is actually trying to convince us!
So if we shall just give the Accurate Long Shot earlier for Tigers on Vet lvl 1, while delaying the flank speed to Vet lvl 3 too; Pershings should also receive the Rapid Shots on Vet lvl 1 on the other hand as I already mentioned several times before... It's not even a hard work to do but yet still I believe it's necessary.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Pershings should not recieve rapid shot ability on vet. 1, because after crew training unlock in command tree all pershings are vet 1 basically, it will mean that non veted Panthers and tigers will not stand a chance against Persh, since it will simply activate rapid shot and kill them without giving chance to response.

Way better if will recieve mounted cal. 50, MarkR, is it possible?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Hmm, but we seriously can't give the Accurate Long Shot earlier on Vet lvl 1 for Tigers without also giving the Rapid Shots ability to the Pershings at Vet lvl 1 as well on the other hand.. or this way the Ace Tiger would be much more superior than the Ace Pershing! So I think it would be just fine even if they receive it by default then after this CP unlock...

Way better if will recieve mounted cal. 50, MarkR, is it possible?

Ya; I already asked for this btw on the "Inspiring for Perfection" topic of the 490 patch as an available upgrade for 50 ammo perhaps when Wolf actually replied to me saying that it would have been done since a very long time if it could be anyhow possible or just that easy to implement which is obviously not.

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

Pershings should not recieve rapid shot ability on vet. 1, because after crew training unlock in command tree all pershings are vet 1 basically, it will mean that non veted Panthers and tigers will not stand a chance against Persh, since it will simply activate rapid shot and kill them without giving chance to response.

Way better if will recieve mounted cal. 50, MarkR, is it possible?

1+

Give it them atleast at vet 2 .......

[MarKr]

Hmm, but we seriously can't give the Accurate Long Shot earlier on Vet lvl 1 for Tigers without also giving the Rapid Shots ability to the Pershings at Vet lvl 1 as well on the other hand

You're right, that's why it stays as it is.
Btw: do you undestand that when you fire with ALS at max range, the penetration is actually lower? I mean, penetration chances are dependant on distance from tahrget, so the further you are the less chance to penetrate. It doesn't matter that much if you fire at target that has weak armour beause there you penetrate anyways but if you fire at heavily armored target you will certainly hit it but penetration is not certain by far.

Way better if will recieve mounted cal. 50, MarkR, is it possible?

Ya; I already asked for this btw on the "Inspiring for Perfection" topic of the 490 patch as an available upgrade for 50 ammo perhaps when Wolf actually replied to me saying that it would have been done since a very long time if it could be anyhow possible or just that easy to implement which is obviously not.

Pretty much what Tiger said...

[Krieger Blitzer]

This is not a logic reason that anyhow justifies why it shouldn't still change according to the requested point number 4, Pershings would have it by default after the CP unlock.. and?! That's really fine... I do have absolutely no problems with it.

And I am not an idiot to waste my ammo for using this ability at the frontal armor of heavy Allies tanks from such far distances btw; as I will just wait until the right moment if the Churchills or the SP for example would ever manage to turn around anywhere So I won't be then always ridiculously forced to get too close even with Tigers (including the Ace one too ) when the opponent could easily immobilize me through different possible means or somewhat probably do something else harmful to my tank such as setting a deadly ambush somewhere while my Tiger is yet too expensive and very slow as well specifically since that the flank speed won't be available anymore except by gaining the Vet lvl 3 hopefully on the other hand.

[MarKr]

That's really fine... I do have absolutely no problems with it.

It would be kind of weird if you had a problem with your own proposal
From my part it is simply no on ALS on lvl1. If you convince Wolf, then fine, but please stop mentioning it in every second post. We know what you ask for, it has been mentioned too many times and mentioning it again and again will not help you push it through.

[Krieger Blitzer]

If you convince Wolf, then fine

Ya, I will definitely do my best then... I know that he is actually somewhat maybe avoiding even until this moment to reply on anything.. specifically regarding some certain points such as those ones! As that seemingly I think he doesn't look like to be really welcoming it either btw; however that I believe that at the same time he still also doesn't want to give me a final 'NO' for it as I feel he has not decided himself yet.

But well let's see considering this subject later anyways

[MarKr]

he still also doesn't want to give me a final 'NO' for it as I feel he has not decided himself yet.

I feel it's more because he's busy and doesn't reply to non-crucial stuff for the time being

[Krieger Blitzer]

Yes, I know that he is busy for sure.. but MarKr... This might be not any crucial for u but yet very crucial stuff to me!

Or do u think btw that all this ongoing discussion is actually for nothing crucial at all??!! There is a problem obviously... Even Hawks admits that there is a problem in fact.. but the thing is that we are both disagreeing on how exactly solving this problem should be done and what are the better solutions to be made.

Shortly from his view;
It's better to add +5 more range for ALL the Axis tanks including even the JP of which is something I do dislike.
While as that from my own view shortly as well;
It would be just better to achieve the point number 4 and then that's all, enough for me!

So surely there is an issue... But then which are the best ways or ideas in order to tune it??!! There at this point remains the question where Wolf's decision has to become.

[MarKr]

This might be not any crucial for u but yet very crucial stuff to me!

If there is a general problem with the mod/unit balance then more people should be heard to ask for a change. Yet as far as I can see here, you see it as a colosal problem, one or two people kind of agree that it is sort of problem and others don't care that much. Also quite often you say stuff like "I need this change..."since you are probably the most famous player to use Tigers, sure that YOU need/want it but I am not that much sure that others would agree that it is soooo desperatly needed as you say. If we were to implement everything that every individual wants...

[Krieger Blitzer]

But from what I can see.. point number 4 as well as point number 2 are probably the most argumentative hot points of all which are being discussed down here at least by the veteran old players so far... As it's surely not only me and Hawks of whom are discussing about them obviously! Some others more or less participated as well.
But alright, whatever ^^
Let's just wait and see what would happen later regarding this subject as I think we have all now pretty much enough clarified the whole situation anyways

[Warhawks97]

I dont think that we need rapid shots or long shots earlier.

For all units (Tigers, panthers, comets, Pershings) we would ahve to rework it. The Persh would have it at defaul even.

All these abilties are pretty helpfull in combat and quite deadly. I dont see a reason why any of these should come earlier. I mean the rapid shot makes the tank shooting twice as fast as usual.

We all are used to have such abilties with vet 2 (and long shot once with vet 3). And there is atm no other who claims that he is absolutely in a need to have such abilties earlier.

Also such things like rapid shot abilties are bonuses. As they have nothing to do with the gun strenght all tanks could get such an ability. So that rapid shot ability for certain expensive tanks should make it appealing for players to use expensive tanks carefully and when doing so the get rewarded. Giving such abilties earlier to them would make their justification very questionable. Also the veterancy steps alone already give a slight passive boost on reload speed.

But imagine Pershings would be able to use this ability at default. You will all players see rushing for persh and then for vet steps and then only Pershings+command car doing rapid shots from great distance all time.

In fact you would have just kicked out all other tanks out of the game as it had been once when the aces had been instantly able to kill entire enemie tank armies by their own and when there was no need to use any other tank.

Super abilties like these two available right at vet 1 would cause this problem once again. Right tactics and correct use of units are now more important as "pay to win" (I pay a lot for an ace unit which comes with ultra abilties and i dont need skill to get that).

These abilties are a reward for those how who keep their tanks alive, forcing a carefull use of the expensive tanks and in return, by doing so, being awarded with abilties which no "normal" tank would ever get. That way expensive tanks are a risk first, but the reward for good use is much better as for cheaper tanks. And this is the actual idea why expensive tanks get some nice cool abilties with vet steps which normal tanks do not get.


And when you tiger1996 do really think that axis tanks have problems with the range then i wonder that you just keep talking about Tigers (and Panthers). I would see all expensive axis tanks equiped with guns that are designed to hit the enemies deadly from a far distance in a need of such an ability. And this is simply what i dont get and which makes me thinking that you dont care about other expensive axis tanks which have the same problem and that you just want a quick buff for your two "favorit tanks" so that you have more fun and easier win when using those.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I will not discuss further.. but my goal anyways is mainly focused on both the TAce and the PAce too... I need these abilities earlier, so that those Aces would become more reasonable to call in once again; WITHOUT increasing their default Vet lvl steps like before! Yet at the same time there should be also no any possibilities for requirement contradictions regarding the abilities of the normal versions and the Ace ones.

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

Btw It is a nice idea let the Churchills only hull down in friendly/neutral zones!

[Warhawks97]

I will not discuss further.. but my goal anyways is mainly focused on both the TAce and the PAce too... I need these abilities earlier, so that those Aces would become more reasonable to call in once again; WITHOUT increasing their default Vet lvl steps like before! Yet at the same time there should be also no any possibilities for requirement contradictions regarding the abilities of the normal versions and the Ace ones.

In fact there is only one ACE atm. Its the Tiger ace.

Pershing ace has no real need and such little change would change much. Most need penetration power in late game and there the SP will remain far superior to normal Persh anyway+ SP has a lot more range than normal Persh.

So Persh ace is more or less dead anways and such little change wont help anway. And i dont care.

Brits ace is no more ace and instead a "new tank" with new roles.



And the Tiger ace.... A Tiger that comes with commander vet 3, vet 1 level, abilties and stormtooper support. So the Tiger ace is a cheaper Tiger actually. Instead paying 950 MP+340 MP(commander)+125 mun (ammo gunsight)+170 fuel+400-450 MP+50 mun (stgs)= 1740 MP/170 fuel and 185 mun you just pay the 1750 MP and get even the veterancy 3 for commander and vet 1 on Tiger.

So where is your problem? Maybe you can remove the stormtooper and drop the cost down to arround 1550 MP? Would be still a fair deal as this tank would be more deadly and fearfull than a 1500 MP Elepahnt or 2000 MP Jagdtiger.

[JimQwilleran]

This might be not any crucial for u but yet very crucial stuff to me!

If there is a general problem with the mod/unit balance then more people should be heard to ask for a change. Yet as far as I can see here, you see it as a colosal problem, one or two people kind of agree that it is sort of problem and others don't care that much. Also quite often you say stuff like "I need this change..."since you are probably the most famous player to use Tigers, sure that YOU need/want it but I am not that much sure that others would agree that it is soooo desperatly needed as you say. If we were to implement everything that every individual wants...

"Did I ever tell you what the definition of insanity is?

Insanity is doing the exact... same fucking thing... over and over again, expecting... shit to change."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKMMCPeiQoc

[Krieger Blitzer]

I think u have probably forgot that the Aces are costing much more CPs, so they are not anyhow cheaper as u think...