Hey guys,
Title pretty much explains it, why is it necessary to call in a HQ glider in order to build a 6pdr at gun?
Is it an intention? If so, why? If not, can you please note it somewhere to implement it in next patch/update/hotfix?
Thanks.
6pounder in base trucks
6pounder in base trucks
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Butterkeks
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Re: 6pounder in base trucks
Iirc it has the following reason:
First HQ truck has BOYS At-Gun -> not in first truck
Second truck has 17pdr (after captain) + PIAT -> not in second
Therefore: First HQ truck would be too fast (Why Boys AT when I could have a at gun that's too strong for early game?)
If it was in second and 17 Pounder in third -> 17pdr comes too late
If they would be both in second -> Maybe a bit too late for 6-pdr, rather get 17pdr -> 6pdr not build by anybody
That way it comes more early, but not too early.
That would be at least my thoughts about this, maybe devs have another explanaiton for it.
Ah yeah, and because of diversity
First HQ truck has BOYS At-Gun -> not in first truck
Second truck has 17pdr (after captain) + PIAT -> not in second
Therefore: First HQ truck would be too fast (Why Boys AT when I could have a at gun that's too strong for early game?)
If it was in second and 17 Pounder in third -> 17pdr comes too late
If they would be both in second -> Maybe a bit too late for 6-pdr, rather get 17pdr -> 6pdr not build by anybody
That way it comes more early, but not too early.
That would be at least my thoughts about this, maybe devs have another explanaiton for it.
Ah yeah, and because of diversity
Re: 6pounder in base trucks
What about make it available in HQ truck, but only after calling in a Field truck, just like recce.
If the reason were that you've got boys early and then 17p, why would 6pdr be available in HQ glider in the first place.
I'm not sure right now, but can't you call HQ glider using lieutenant right from the beginning?
My point is, simply it's already there, only you need to call HQ glider, which is a substitution for forward barracks of other fractions (diversity, right
, but its pretty much basic unit like 50mm axis and 57mm of US (which is indeed british 6pdr .
So would be kinda good to have it normally, since boys are early anti-vehicle unit and 17p is late heavy AT unit (like 76mm and 75mm).
If the reason were that you've got boys early and then 17p, why would 6pdr be available in HQ glider in the first place.
I'm not sure right now, but can't you call HQ glider using lieutenant right from the beginning?
My point is, simply it's already there, only you need to call HQ glider, which is a substitution for forward barracks of other fractions (diversity, right
, but its pretty much basic unit like 50mm axis and 57mm of US (which is indeed british 6pdr .So would be kinda good to have it normally, since boys are early anti-vehicle unit and 17p is late heavy AT unit (like 76mm and 75mm).
"Only by admitting what we are can we get what we want"
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Warhawks97
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Re: 6pounder in base trucks
Butterkeks wrote:Iirc it has the following reason:
First HQ truck has BOYS At-Gun -> not in first truck
Second truck has 17pdr (after captain) + PIAT -> not in second
Therefore: First HQ truck would be too fast (Why Boys AT when I could have a at gun that's too strong for early game?)
If it was in second and 17 Pounder in third -> 17pdr comes too late
If they would be both in second -> Maybe a bit too late for 6-pdr, rather get 17pdr -> 6pdr not build by anybody
That way it comes more early, but not too early.
That would be at least my thoughts about this, maybe devs have another explanaiton for it.
Ah yeah, and because of diversity
You cant simply say that when both come with second truck the 6 pdr would become obsolet. I am producing medium paks even when i can already get heavy paks. Simply because they are cheaper and more flexibel. I keep the bigger paks often in the last line as final counter. While 57 mm support me in offense as it would most likely be that enemie sends vehicles like the 234 series, marders or AA tanks first to counter my assault, not directly tigers. For offense and first line defense i use mainly medium paks and M10 (as allied) which are a way more flexibel (in case of pak also cheap). First behind those i do put my bigger paks as hard counter when axis start an assault with their main forces.
So 6 pdr and 17 pdr does makes sense in second truck. Maybe one before captain, the other after captain available.
But just because a bigger pak is avaialble it does not mean the production of medium paks are being stopped. They are good enough to deal with vehicles and medium armor when properly used.
CW 6 pdr and US M1 57 AT gun are the same actually. The brits used 6 pdr L/43 first (MK II and III). The US quickly figured out that they need something better than the 37 mm gun M3 and simply produced the 57 mm 6 pdr gun in the US, calling it M1 57 mm gun. The calibre lenght was 50 (L/50) and brits 6 pdr also got upped in barrel lenght from L/43 to L/50 (MK IV and V).
The only different was: US had no special AP rounds, only the standard AP and APCBC rounds. The brits already used APDS rounds and APCR (HVAP or in german: Hartkernmunnition). The APDS was a brutal one. It penetrated tigers at 500 meters, possibly even up to 1000 meters. Just APDS of that time had not been famous for its accuracy.
All heavy paks are available in same building and usually just one upgrade later available. German War barracks contain both paks, one need an HQ upgrade. US needs the motorpool upgrade. So CW with 6 pdr in second truck and unlocked before captain, the 17 pdr after captain wouldnt be anyhow unlogical or bad. And if the second truck as all slots full, then it could be added to first truck, just requireing second truck to be concverted into a FHQ.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 08 Sep 2015, 15:17, edited 1 time in total.
Build more AA Walderschmidt
Re: 6pounder in base trucks
Warhawks97 wrote:You cant simply say that when both come with second truck the 6 pdr would become obsolet. I am producing medium paks even when i can already get heavy paks. Simply because they are cheaper and more flexibel. I keep the bigger paks often in the last line as final counter. While 57 mm support me in offense as it would most likely be that enemie sends vehicles like the 234 series, marders or AA tanks first to counter my assault, not directly tigers. For offense and first line defense i use mainly medium paks and M10 (as allied) which are a way more flexibel (in case of pak also cheap). First behind those i do put my bigger paks as hard counter when axis start an assault with their main forces.
So 6 pdr and 17 pdr does makes sense in second truck. Maybe one before captain, the other after captain available.
But just because a bigger pak is avaialble it does not mean the production of medium paks are being stopped. They are good enough to deal with vehicles and medium armor when properly used.
I agree, i like to use smaller packs too, especially 50mm axis, they are much more mobile and still very capable.
"Only by admitting what we are can we get what we want"
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Butterkeks
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Re: 6pounder in base trucks
Well I didn't want to say that they would become completely obsolete, just that most people (Including me) would probably do it that way
Or at least I thought so. Apparently I'm the only one going for the big At-Guns rather thean the smaller ones^^
Well I guess you could have it in second truck, but I (I play lots of brits
) prefer it that way, simply for the diversity. Factions should be unique, so that every army is played different, and in my opinion, this includes also 6pdr in glider
Where the heck do you get all these ressources from?
You always write about your well set up defense lines with a big bunch of units, normally I couldn't even afford it to have so many units, simply because of alck of MP or fuel.
Teach me Master
Or at least I thought so. Apparently I'm the only one going for the big At-Guns rather thean the smaller ones^^
Well I guess you could have it in second truck, but I (I play lots of brits
) prefer it that way, simply for the diversity. Factions should be unique, so that every army is played different, and in my opinion, this includes also 6pdr in glider Warhawks97 wrote:
You cant simply say that when both come with second truck the 6 pdr would become obsolet. I am producing medium paks even when i can already get heavy paks. Simply because they are cheaper and more flexibel. I keep the bigger paks often in the last line as final counter. While 57 mm support me in offense as it would most likely be that enemie sends vehicles like the 234 series, marders or AA tanks first to counter my assault, not directly tigers. For offense and first line defense i use mainly medium paks and M10 (as allied) which are a way more flexibel (in case of pak also cheap). First behind those i do put my bigger paks as hard counter when axis start an assault with their main forces.
Where the heck do you get all these ressources from?
You always write about your well set up defense lines with a big bunch of units, normally I couldn't even afford it to have so many units, simply because of alck of MP or fuel.
Teach me Master
Re: 6pounder in base trucks
Butterkeks wrote:Well I didn't want to say that they would become completely obsolete, just that most people (Including me) would probably do it that way
Or at least I thought so. Apparently I'm the only one going for the big At-Guns rather thean the smaller ones^^
Well I guess you could have it in second truck, but I (I play lots of brits
Where the heck do you get all these ressources from?
You always write about your well set up defense lines with a big bunch of units, normally I couldn't even afford it to have so many units, simply because of alck of MP or fuel.
Teach me Master
For instance, british 17p is really expensive and really slow to move and turn and 6pdr is really capable against all kind of vehicles, trucks, partially stugs and AA tanks, even against pz4 with little bit of luck and/or APDS. I like it
"Only by admitting what we are can we get what we want"
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Butterkeks
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Re: 6pounder in base trucks
Devilfish wrote:For instance, british 17p is really expensive and really slow to move and turn and 6pdr is really capable against all kind of vehicles, trucks, partially stugs and AA tanks, even against pz4 with little bit of luck and/or APDS. I like it
Well good point.
I didn't use it quite often as I prefer to have a more flexible frontline (means killing those tanks with Inf) and a bit behind the frontline the 17pdr as a defense line if the inf fails. So for me it was never so important how fast the 17pdrs move^^
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Warhawks97
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Re: 6pounder in base trucks
ehm. I told you. My largets army was over 300 popcap large. Keep units alive, use supply yard and as inf doc medic trucks. Its not that much or hard to get except you get bombed by 4 neblers all the time.
And as i said, i dont build that often the big paks simply as i prefer flexiblity. As axis i get out only the 50 mm paks. Can you remember hour 1:30 hour game? I had storms, panther and AA tanks and 1400 MP. Still i used only 50 mm paks simply because i need some small additional cheap AT to fight cybers recces and cromwells. So even when i could build two panthers more, i keep producing medium paks.
And As US... The early rifle squad, cheap M20, cheap M10 and cheap 57 mm. You can get every minute one more unit. I prefer this anytime over one jumbo tank. and on long term a loss of such a unit is quickly replaced and the MP storage grows on. A larger assault from axis do often include many different units. When entire team attacks one side you will probably see not only big tanks, but also Marders and AA tanks and stuff. Having then a single big pak, shooting panther and bounces is bad. You wasted then more than 300 MP for nothing. Small and med paks can at least open fire on AA tanks and vehicles and killing those instead of the single heavy armored tank. So i have spend a bit more for two paks (small and med pak) but killed at least something.
Also medium and small paks are better suited for offense or offense support when pumas and scot cars to bother you. They come for little cost, deny the enemie vehicle and can retreat quickly.
Also an advantage of having maybe two medium paks is, that they cover and deny a greater area than one big pak. They can be recrewed easier (it doesnt needs a full 6 squad team of which one remains when recrewing big pak which means its easier to retake them from an "hot ground". Also many fired shots can confuse even bigger tanks. they just see shell bouncing but dont know where they come from. That way i managed to kill a jumbo as he engaged one 50 mm pak believing it was the only one. The other could fire then in its arse:P
You can also hold fire with one medium pak and waiting untill the weaker armored tanks and vehicles want to follow the assault tank which already passed one medium pak. Means i killed the scott and an m16 which wanted to follow the Jumbo.
So there are lots of great uses for medium paks.
And how to get so many units. See... when you go directly for one big pak as anti everything counter you may missed many chances before to kill lighter enemie vehicles and tanks. That means, they have more units when you get one pak. You have wasted more ressources for one unit which does nothing for a while. So sometimes it makes a lot more sense to spread your res investment over more cheaper units than into one expensive. It lowers you risk and opens a lot more tactical options. And on that you can build up step by step your offense.
and that might cause unneccessary high losses among your inf ending in higher cost as a 6 pdr might have cost by doing the job easier. And the light and medium paks are flexibel. In case you can also use the HT´s with 57 mm. When you got a big pak as ultimate defense line then the others could be used better for the advance and supporting your inf. Very good against these nasty AA tanks and vehicles with 20 mm canons. And when you have then already inf with zooks and a 57 mm behind with AP rounds, then you have quite a good chance to kill even tank IV´s.
Also M10 are flexibel. I often use them regardless of which doc i play. Well suited again to quickly kill the scout cars and the like. And the fact that they are fast makes them less vulnerable to 150 mm rocket spam. And Tank commander can boost the tank as well.
And it helps to do something usefull with the fuel you have. So as long as i have the fuel, i take M10 over 76 mm pak atm.
And as i said, i dont build that often the big paks simply as i prefer flexiblity. As axis i get out only the 50 mm paks. Can you remember hour 1:30 hour game? I had storms, panther and AA tanks and 1400 MP. Still i used only 50 mm paks simply because i need some small additional cheap AT to fight cybers recces and cromwells. So even when i could build two panthers more, i keep producing medium paks.
And As US... The early rifle squad, cheap M20, cheap M10 and cheap 57 mm. You can get every minute one more unit. I prefer this anytime over one jumbo tank. and on long term a loss of such a unit is quickly replaced and the MP storage grows on. A larger assault from axis do often include many different units. When entire team attacks one side you will probably see not only big tanks, but also Marders and AA tanks and stuff. Having then a single big pak, shooting panther and bounces is bad. You wasted then more than 300 MP for nothing. Small and med paks can at least open fire on AA tanks and vehicles and killing those instead of the single heavy armored tank. So i have spend a bit more for two paks (small and med pak) but killed at least something.
Also medium and small paks are better suited for offense or offense support when pumas and scot cars to bother you. They come for little cost, deny the enemie vehicle and can retreat quickly.
Also an advantage of having maybe two medium paks is, that they cover and deny a greater area than one big pak. They can be recrewed easier (it doesnt needs a full 6 squad team of which one remains when recrewing big pak which means its easier to retake them from an "hot ground". Also many fired shots can confuse even bigger tanks. they just see shell bouncing but dont know where they come from. That way i managed to kill a jumbo as he engaged one 50 mm pak believing it was the only one. The other could fire then in its arse:P
You can also hold fire with one medium pak and waiting untill the weaker armored tanks and vehicles want to follow the assault tank which already passed one medium pak. Means i killed the scott and an m16 which wanted to follow the Jumbo.
So there are lots of great uses for medium paks.
And how to get so many units. See... when you go directly for one big pak as anti everything counter you may missed many chances before to kill lighter enemie vehicles and tanks. That means, they have more units when you get one pak. You have wasted more ressources for one unit which does nothing for a while. So sometimes it makes a lot more sense to spread your res investment over more cheaper units than into one expensive. It lowers you risk and opens a lot more tactical options. And on that you can build up step by step your offense.
Butterkeks wrote:I didn't use it quite often as I prefer to have a more flexible frontline (means killing those tanks with Inf) and a bit behind the frontline the 17pdr as a defense line if the inf fails. So for me it was never so important how fast the 17pdrs move^^
and that might cause unneccessary high losses among your inf ending in higher cost as a 6 pdr might have cost by doing the job easier. And the light and medium paks are flexibel. In case you can also use the HT´s with 57 mm. When you got a big pak as ultimate defense line then the others could be used better for the advance and supporting your inf. Very good against these nasty AA tanks and vehicles with 20 mm canons. And when you have then already inf with zooks and a 57 mm behind with AP rounds, then you have quite a good chance to kill even tank IV´s.
Also M10 are flexibel. I often use them regardless of which doc i play. Well suited again to quickly kill the scout cars and the like. And the fact that they are fast makes them less vulnerable to 150 mm rocket spam. And Tank commander can boost the tank as well.
And it helps to do something usefull with the fuel you have. So as long as i have the fuel, i take M10 over 76 mm pak atm.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 08 Sep 2015, 15:42, edited 1 time in total.
Build more AA Walderschmidt
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Butterkeks
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Re: 6pounder in base trucks
Well I got time for some BK this evening, I'll have a try
But now back to topic
So Devilfish, why exactly does it bug you that you have to call in the glider for it?
This way you can build it way earlier and be way more flexible vs. stuff like Puma etc.
But now back to topic
So Devilfish, why exactly does it bug you that you have to call in the glider for it?
This way you can build it way earlier and be way more flexible vs. stuff like Puma etc.
Re: 6pounder in base trucks
Before the patch it was all "BOYS suck I need an AT gun in the first HQ truck! Move the 6pounder there!". We said that 6ponder stays in Glider but we buffed BOYS. I asked specifically about their performance after the patch and nobody spoke negatively against them and now we have here again the same request. Sorry Devilfish but simply no. As early AT use BOYS Tommies (even the Bren Carrier BOYS rifle got buff), or if you really want 6pounder call the glider. BOYS have static mode which gives them more range and accuracy, become auto camoed when in cover, can fire in 360° without any need for setting their facing angles, they can capture points and also get bonuses from Lieutenant's aura. Not that bad trade-off.
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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: 6pounder in base trucks
MarKr wrote:Before the patch it was all "BOYS suck I need an AT gun in the first HQ truck! Move the 6pounder there!". We said that 6ponder stays in Glider but we buffed BOYS. I asked specifically about their performance after the patch and nobody spoke negatively against them and now we have here again the same request. Sorry Devilfish but simply no. As early AT use BOYS Tommies (even the Bren Carrier BOYS rifle got buff), or if you really want 6pounder call the glider. BOYS have static mode which gives them more range and accuracy, become auto camoed when in cover, can fire in 360° without any need for setting their facing angles, they can capture points and also get bonuses from Lieutenant's aura. Not that bad trade-off.
+1
Exactly that's what I was about to say here! Wolf already rejected this request before after such a very long discussion in the past, and the AT rifle boys were finally buffed in order...
But I honestly didn't want to mention anything as a response to this before u or Wolf (I know he is very busy though) do it first.. just to avoid any other shit kind of arguing storm that is biased to be all against me once more again
SO it's only worth to mention that it's really good that u have said this by urself now; or I would have done it instead
Duh......
Re: 6pounder in base trucks
Butterkeks wrote:Well I got time for some BK this evening, I'll have a try
But now back to topic
So Devilfish, why exactly does it bug you that you have to call in the glider for it?
This way you can build it way earlier and be way more flexible vs. stuff like Puma etc.
What bugs me is the fact, that i need to call in glider just because i need/want 6pdr. It is contradicting with the purpose of HQ glider. HQ glider is the same structure as US or Axis forward barracks in the buildings in its own unique way. So the purpose is to bring creating of basic units closer to the front, like riflemen, mg, mortar or mention 57mm at gun AND possibility of reinforcement.
So right now i currently don't need forward HQ, but i still need to waste MP on glider because i need 6pdr and there is no other way to get 6pdr, which is simply stupid in my opinion.
It's the same as you would need to find a building, spend MP to make forward barracks and only then could you make 50mm pak as axis. Pretty stupid, huh?
MarKr wrote:Before the patch it was all "BOYS suck I need an AT gun in the first HQ truck! Move the 6pounder there!". We said that 6ponder stays in Glider but we buffed BOYS. I asked specifically about their performance after the patch and nobody spoke negatively against them and now we have here again the same request. Sorry Devilfish but simply no. As early AT use BOYS Tommies (even the Bren Carrier BOYS rifle got buff), or if you really want 6pounder call the glider. BOYS have static mode which gives them more range and accuracy, become auto camoed when in cover, can fire in 360° without any need for setting their facing angles, they can capture points and also get bonuses from Lieutenant's aura. Not that bad trade-off.
Seems to me i kinda drove you mad, but anyway you don't understand. 6pdr is not supposed to be early anti-vehicle weapon. AT boys are ok now. 6pdr is 57mm gun, literally the same cannon as the US counterpart. Is it meant to fight early tanks and more armored targets that come later then early game, 6pdr has the same role as 50mm axis or 57mm us(same gun). I don't want it to come as fast as boys. Maybe in second truck without captain or so?
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6thAirborneDivision
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Re: 6pounder in base trucks
Do you guys think any balancing issues would occur if you make the 6-pounder available in the Infantry Truck? Honestly I don't think so ... I still don't see the reason why it is just such a massive problem for you to implement that ... It wouldn't harm the balancing at all, not on your life, but faction comparison included the implementation would be just fair. If you need the goddam Infantry truck in order to build the 6-pounder in the glider, why can't it be build in the Truck itself? Isn't that the consequence and just truly logical? I would just think about that and not always refer to "build Boys" as this is an argument not concerning this particular issue somehow.
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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: 6pounder in base trucks
In respect to all of u, but the RAF doc is one of the best in the game currently.. still this would forever remain to be the real weak point of the CW faction... Because it has been always the only true disadvantage of Brits btw! And since no side is supposed to be 100% perfect as that everyone has to usually lack some spots in order to insure the overall balance; So plz end.