Camp,Bomb,Noob Tactics

[Terence's Mouth]

Camp Bomb and Noob tactics are the best tactics in this game, where is the fun?
A question to the developers not to warhawks or other book writers.
Pls think about it, once i wrote a post that i want the old bk touch back....
In this times games was won by manouvers skill and groundfights not by boring camping bombing or noob tactics.
Some noob tactics : Spamming SD2, spam 107 mortar, spam bunkers , spam snipers , spam boobytraps (everything that kills the enemy without let him a chance to fight with his units just die)

The top three of the best tactics to win a game in BK-Mod shouldnt be this three you know?

[Wolf]

When exactly was it won by skill and groundfights? When people didn't know about other stuff.

Back in the days we won most of games by CW Arty and RE - "camping" tactic at its finest, so thats not very comforting - point precise, fast firing, low cooldown, cheap and non-tied aimed fire Priest. Or 100% precise allkilling stupa. That was much more campy than nowdays. We didn't buff SD2, we didn't buff 107, we weakened bunkers, buffed non-arty stuff against bunkers, removed unlimited perma MG42, PE sniper rof was reduced, some sniper price increased, boobytraps were not changed except with price cost in next patch (and its not without a chance), reduced arty immobilization.

So okay, you want more groundfights back, I get that, but we already kinda did a lot of steps in that direction, we reduced "non chance to fight stuff" like arty, reduced emplacements, added Panther G back, buffed basic inf, added weaponry to inf, more fighting posibilities to inf, made AB playable, fixed a lot of useless stuff, cheapened/buffed some cheaper tanks, but its not like we can do something all the time.. if we reduce bunkers HP or whatever even more, why would anyone even build it? then we will reduce cost? Then it will be too cheap but still good. Then people will find something else that is too effective or something. Why suddenly SD2 are so problematic, when they are like they are for a looong time? Why 107 is now that OP, when previously like nobody used it? You want skill and groundfights back? Well then, you have to forbid people to learn new tactic. Like I said, skilled players did exactly the same what people now do, overuse stuff that is way too good. It will get reduced, people will find new stuff, circle continues, but don't come at me with "In this times games was won by manouvers skill and groundfights not by boring camping bombing or noob tactics.". Because it wasn't. We are actively working on making easy stuff harder, thats the best we can do.

[kwok]

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=736

[Warhawks97]

Old versions had a lot more arty. But i cant say it was anyhow "nicer". We had no defense, but insane ammount of arty that could fire for free or for like 35 ammo. I dont like too cheap arty and spam of it, but also not too much and too cost effective def camping.

The most annoying things got/get buffed changed in next patch.


But one question terence. You get bothered by alli camp? axis camp? or both sides?

I simply think that the players have changed. Since it got to steam we got many new players and thus automatically more carefully playing and thus defensively playing guys.


It would also be nice to hear, how exactly you would change stuff. I woud guess your answer will be "set limits". But can a limit on everything at the end improve the fun? And who decides what to limit?


And did you try kwoks solution already? I got convinced in a few games already.


Besides that... yeah.... i would try little arty stretch on allied side and kind of light arty coming early. Some inf costs and vehicle cost down here and there.

[Terence's Mouth]

You know 4vs4 map halfayapass, old times it was realy cool map with good fights now its unplayable.
Why? because the team with more artillery wins.
I see USA snipers win game vs Luft, i see 107 win game on small maps vs everything, i see games where people just bomb enemy to stoneage before they make a move forward...

Its good to hear you go to this direction...
You say you didnt buff 107 but you put it into the game, you think this thing like now is okay?
For me a Limit of 2 and less damage would help much, plus this 107 got an aimbot you can sprint to it and it mostly hits your unit, even with no MG or enemy units its hard to attack one mortar with one infantry squad.

You build luft unit attack enemy he has 2 snipers only, you need fall back and wait for vehicles where enemy has enough time to build at guns and cover his snipers.
I lost many games only because of this.(lost all units before but enemy as well, last hope to fight back was the luft unit)
A limit of 1 sniper only would help and 1 is realy enough, it will give players a much better feeling as now. (For the player who attacks snipers not use them on his own)

To SD2, they wasnt problametic because nobodys abused them, now i see many games players spam SD2 and win a game only because of this.
Maybe you dont play with this players but believe me SD2 can destroy a game and all fun.
So what help at the SD2? build pioneers and use your time to search mines?
BK mod is realy fast and if you wait to long to search mines or wait for vehicles then the enemy has won the game if he plays without mistakes or stupid tactics.

What i say is you start a game,you fight vs enemy and the chances are like 50 50, then the enemy come with a tactic like this and youre chances goes down to 5-95.
I dont think its okay, bk mod is a game where people fight each other, i know there are players that basebomb only to win and dont care about tactics...
In my opinion the better player should win or the player who fought better but not the player who used the kind of units which ends the fight.

My point is realy easy to understand i think, the fight should decide about the winner and the looser nothing else.
But there are some things that destroying the fight, basebomb is one thing of it everybody knows it but nobody can change it.
But there are many other things that can be changed, so why dont change them?
(Its not a question to you wolf its a generaly question, you doin a great job and still bring out new patches after all that time so everybody know youre doing your best, but im just bored that many many players cant be gentlemen and dont care how to win a game, so i want some changes that prevent this tactics and abusing)

[MarKr]

You see Wolf basically told you that stuff people complain about now were like this for loooong time but one day somebody found out that it can be used in a different way, they start using it, people see how effective it is and suddenly most people uses it. And you just confirmed it with:

To SD2, they wasnt problametic because nobodys abused them, now i see many games players spam SD2 and win a game only because of this.

And this is the basic problem - even IF we managed to do something with the 107mm mortar without making it pointless to build, people will figure out something else that till now worked fine but suddenly will be abused. So unless people stop being jerks and exploiting stuff like this then it will end in nerfing units to point where they will be utterly useless.

Also how is it possible that ever since I joined the BK forum (and I joined over a year ago at the old BK forum) nobody complained about 107mm emplacement but suddenly in last two weeks you start complaining about it...what people do with it that it is suddenly such a huge problem? Even bigger problem than SE 120mm mortar or that CW 4.2'' mortar? Those are mobile while 107 is static. 120mm has even that nasty "in the air exploding" shells that have much larger AoE than normal mortar shells and can kill infantry like nothing and decrew emplacements fast...

I see USA snipers win game vs Luft, i see 107 win game on small maps vs everything,

Why do you play BK on small maps? On small maps can any arty unit cover most of the map. You see, BK works in such a way that it cannot be ballanced for both small and large maps, therefore large maps are recommended for playing.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

The problem of 107mm is SHITLOAD of HP, its only destroyable by Walking stuka or Hummel. Seriously, it needs 4 Granade bundles to be destroyed ( 200 ammo ).

[Krieger Blitzer]

The problem of 107mm is SHITLOAD of HP, its only destroyable by Walking stuka or Hummel. Seriously, it needs 4 Granade bundles to be destroyed ( 200 ammo ).

+1

[Warhawks97]

Terence... I am not sure what you are talking about "old times". I giving a small view how "old times" had been.

1. AB unplayable
2. Two ways of playing: Mega arty spam or camp. I had games with 0 defense because every defense got bombed to dust. Was it better? idk. It was more like a huge clash in the center of the map. You saw only commandos, rangers, storms, luft inf, Panthers, shermans, Comet. There was 0 tactic and strategy. Only pure micro during the clashes. That contiuned like 3 hours over and over again. And during that both sides fired all their arty (like 11 arty pieces) into this "clash center". The other way was MEFA SUPER CAMP. I had games at halfaya where ive seen 15 bunker with perma MG, 2 120 mortar bunkers, 8 88´s, stuhs/stupa/aa tanks. That wasnt fun at all! And very often tons of Perma MG bunkers within the first mins and then stupa, stupa, stupa..... Also a scenario which was very low skill was spam of elite inf. Pay once, reinforce for dump prices. Finally always only commando and luft inf blobbs shredding everything. Yeah,... that was lots of skill.
3. The ultimate noob tactic: KCH+ 6 nebler and 0 ammo VT.
Skill Factor: 0,00
Noob level: Extrem high
Effectivness: Very high in early- mid stage, high in mid till late, good-average in very late.


I simply forgot how much more skill it required..... The 107 are there since a very long time. Just once all ran for double 105 sherman and jumbo. Today all for 107, rangers spam and off map arty. I agree that the 107 should be destroyed after max 3 grenade bundles and max 2 demo charges. Also a bit more vulnerable to 150 rocket arty but shouldnt be downed right after the first nebler occured.

4. AB absolutely unplayable

The old versions required only in terms of micro managment a lot more skill. I had games with arround 60 clicks per minute (i used a software to see that) and one mouse died due to the massive ammounts of clicks i had and i played most of the time BK doc stormtroopers there and not even inf doc. But strategy was actually always arty. All slower moving units had been arty food. Howitzers got deployed near base just to shoot in the center of the map to support the own units in the clash.



For SD2. Yes they always worked as they do know but they became a lot more valuable due to increased defenses which "produced" more strategic areas which can be covered with them. In old version an sd2 spam wasnt that deadly because you could move whereever you want as there often no defense at all in late game (and if like that in 15 bunker match halfaya then game was lost anyway already). So you could dodge them more easily and arty fire and ammount of units going arround quickly cleaned the map from sd2. Henschels had been a lot more valuable there because of the immense tank clashes and because of weak US AA. Nowdays it changed and sd2 can be layed down like a wall in front of your defense line and on the flanks. Henschels in return became less important when fuel upkeep got introduced and US armor doc tank divisions disappeared for a while while defenses at the same time increased when arty got reworked (cost, ammount etc). So for the new, less aggresssive less open field battle style the sd2 are better. Once in the open clashes with players being forced to fight an open fight the henschels had been a lot more important.



Another factor that changed axis late game in teamfights was the TH doc rework. Once a doc with great offense capabilities and main axis Panther provider doc but generally expensive tanks got reworked in 4.7 to a pure TH doc with less offensive power but therefore cheaper and more TD´s which mainly act defensively.



But generally i love the work wolf did. He fixed lots of bugs, reworked units that behaved simply stupid aka 100% accuracy super stupa. Scotts also got some reworks (less accurate, therefore more range), the kch remove, adding ammo cost to Nebler VT, reworking reinforcment cost of elite inf which was great, he made AB doc playable (one of his first changes in his first community patches), he changed cost of units and fixed units. best sample the M15A1. Once two cal 50 had a rof of 1 and horrible accuracy while that thing had a cost of 420 MP!! He changed M16 to be a usefull AA (it often bounced from airplanes and failed them as well!), he made it possible that armor doc can build tanks again thx to supply yard changes. He reworked cost of axis TH´s that greatly overperformed for their cost (eg Jagdpanther for 700 MP once). He made the jeep being usefull. Fixed Boys AT. Changed cost of airstrikes which often had been overpriced. He decreased immobilisation change of arty against tanks. He improved recons (once a useless unit as it couldnt even crawl). Fixed churchill tanks and he did a lot more great changes. He dropped infantry build cost (grens, Heavvy assault grens, Luft inf). Changed US Tier up cost in order to adjust the new gameplay US got. Reduced bunker perma MG´s and bunkers in general soon. The list of very good changes is very long and thats great and a big thx seems appriopriate.


The only things he made i couldnt support is that howitzers and 150 nebler and 75 mm arty got limited.


So generally i stay very well behind him and i think its not his intention to create more campy games or anything. The Jeep and M16 slowed down the axis maneuverbility as they suppress now. Once Axis could simply overrun them becuase they didnt do anything against infantry. So it forced axis a bit to move more carefully but thats just fair.

[Terence's Mouth]

To change something is for you to make it useless?
Allright...
bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla old times bla bla bla bla old times new times bla bla bla bla

@warhawks bla bla bla bla bla bla etc. etc. ³

[6thAirborneDivision]

Today all for 107, rangers spam and off map arty.

I think this sentence captures the inf doc playstyle these days of many players quite accurately
Like you said, 107 mortars exist for a long time actually but have never been used as extensive as now in my view. They are "trendy" right now so to say ... People are successful with 107 so they are getting built every game, nearly the same as with Recce and PE mortarcar, it's that formulaic playstyle which is trendy right now

107 obviously has too many HP, it should be decreased a little bit ...

[Warhawks97]

Today all for 107, rangers spam and off map arty.

I think this sentence captures the inf doc playstyle these days of many players quite accurately
Like you said, 107 mortars exist for a long time actually but have never been used as extensive as now in my view. They are "trendy" right now so to say ... People are successful with 107 so they are getting built every game, nearly the same as with Recce and PE mortarcar, it's that formulaic playstyle which is trendy right now

107 obviously has too many HP, it should be decreased a little bit ...

And 105 sherman is rarley seen in nowdays. Move 105 and jumbo to armor doc!

[Terence's Mouth]

lol, it would be realy intresting jumbo and 105sherman in armor doc because Armor doc is better in defensive than in offensive right now.
With 105 and 2 types of jumbo it would be have enough power to attack on his own without artillery team support.

To 107 i must play more matches to say something but i hope its not like a siegfriedline anymore.

[Warhawks97]

lol, it would be realy intresting jumbo and 105sherman in armor doc because Armor doc is better in defensive than in offensive right now.
With 105 and 2 types of jumbo it would be have enough power to attack on his own without artillery team support.

To 107 i must play more matches to say something but i hope its not like a siegfriedline anymore.

too bad... yu havent read my long posts about that me and sukin fought for it (and many others think same).

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=687&start=50

here, page 3-5.