RE and def doc emplacment boost

[Warhawks97]

Regarding final posts of this topic:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=537


I wanna ask the devs what exactly the emplacment boost does. HP increase? Taken damage decrease? How can an emplacment take just like 10% damage from a 150 mm shell? How can an emplacment stand a rocket arty firework which not even the tanks could stay?

I am just curious at first place.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I do surely like the idea of totally removing these fortification boosting items from all the docs that are having them.. they are just completely unreal... No more such BS plz! Maybe they could be replaced with anything else, I mean really anything that is more logic.

And again;
Why the US Engineers are able to construct tank traps since the start even BEFORE choosing any doc?????? o.O

Why the demolition Storm squads are limited to ONLY a single one???? OMG O_O

Why the tank traps are having such an infinite HP that is probably even MORE THAN Bunkers btw???
Why shouldn't they just cost NOTHING at all while being easier destroyed.. having greatly less HP on the other hand??!!


SUCH FEW, BUT STILL SO IMPORTANT THINGS.. REALLY NEED TO BE FIXED!

[MarKr]

What is suddenly the problem with emplacements? I cannot remember a single time here or at the old forum when anybody complained about "too strong" emplacements. Emplacements have not been touched since then (only US got .30cal and RAF lost 17pounder) but they became a huge pain in the ass somehow? I have a feeling that this is once again that "I favor more dynamic gameplay and emplacements are making it harder so nerf them." Yes, it would play in cards to those players who favor dynamic game-play but guess what? It would completely screw the other players who favor campy play-style. Even if you don't like it, it doesn't mean that their play-style is dumb and yours is super-awesome or whatever.

How can an emplacment take just like 10% damage from a 150 mm shell?

And under what circumstances does this happen? When the shell hits so far from the emplacement that it barely reaches its splash radius? In such a case even tanks often take no damage.

How can an emplacment stand a rocket arty firework which not even the tanks could stay?

I'm pretty sure that a direct hit from a rocket tears a new one to any emplacement...

they are just completely unreal

again the "realism" - so again: few dudes swinging shovel builds a building made of CONCRETE in 30 seconds/ one Halftrack can produce an INFINITE number of soldiers to replace loses in squads/ arty shots are somehow guided to places where is most enemy units located/ no unit ever runs out of ammo or fuel... Is it really so unreal that engineers with basic training know how to build an emplacement so they do so as they were taught but some other engineers with more extensive training in building fortifications can build it somewhat more durable or simply better?

You know...the emplacements are meant to be strong points that defend some area if they are rendered useless by number of nerfs we will only get a bunch of useless emplacements that nobody ever will build.

Anyway - the command tree unlock provides:
HP +25%
Received penetration -10%
(now I expect "LOL!!! lowered penetration??? such a BS!!!")

[Krieger Blitzer]

There is absolutely nothing here all of sudden, except these few things of which I marked as "Whys" that I consider them as serious bugs actually!

However that ALL those previous flood of several topics regarding such an issue considering the arty\def balance subjects.. are for sure connected firmly to this thread.
But we just recently came to the conclusion of that the defensive boosts of both the RE and the Def docs are an important part of the whole main problem itself... Bunkers and emplacements are already strong; SIMPLY NO NEED FOR SUCH ITEMS!

Because they are usually leading for hundreds of many endless campy games, removing them WON"T screw the other players whom are admiring to camp. As it's currently just overestimated!
I mean.. it's gonna be only a slight nerf in fact.

[Warhawks97]

Anyway - the command tree unlock provides:
HP +25%
Received penetration -10%

Received penetration? oO

thx. So thats for inf and RE doc right? And anything regarding taken damage from arty shells?

Thats at first all i wanted to know, thx a lot.



@Tiger: What you mean with Tank traps for US available right from start? oO. Why not? Also each cost 25 MP so its not that cheap to build an effective wall. And axis cant build them from start?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Yes, the US engineers are allowed to build them since the start EVEN without choosing the Inf doc... Tank traps are available to be used there for all the US docs I meant

The tank traps should cost NOTHING AT ALL; BUT with a greatly decreased HP on the other hand! Heavy tanks should still remain being unable to step on them, that's just fine as they should become always unbreakable except when the enemy fires or shoots at them.. but not with such an infinite amount of HP plz!!

Now I am saying.. demolition Storms should be limited to 4 or 3 squads instead of just a single one currently.
ONLY one unit as a global spawn??? Really?? WTF???!!! o.O
This unit is going to be necessary if both the Assault Storms and the Suppression ones won't be able to crawl anymore without the veterancy training unlock.


-10% received penetration

Is that's why the Schrecks are 'bouncing' even more often from them??!!

Remove those shitty items plz.. then make another good use of their empty place on both the Def and the RE docs by investing them into something more acceptable.

[MarKr]

Received penetration? oO

Yep.

thx. So thats for inf and RE doc right? And anything regarding taken damage from arty shells?

Nothing for Infanty doc but RE and Def doc. The unlock does not affect artyllery shells in any way.

There is absolutely nothing here all of sudden, except these few things of which I marked as "Whys" that I consider them as serious bugs actually!

And since nobody else complained about these "WHYs", we can say that they are suddenly a problem now? These things are in BK since...I don't know...since the start? And suddenly they are a problem?

However that ALL those previous flood of several topics regarding such an issue considering the arty\def balance subjects.. are for sure connected firmly to this thread.
But we just recently came to the conclusion of that the defensive boosts of both the RE and the Def docs are an important part of the whole main problem itself

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying, but it sounds like you're saying that these "Improved emplacements" unlocks cause disballance with artillery?

Because they are usually leading for hundreds of many endless campy games, removing them WON"T screw the other players whom are admiring to camp. As it's currently just overestimated!

I recently read a post from Kwok. He said that most of these problems that most people complain about would be solved if people played on bigger maps with lower number of players - e.g. a 4vs4 map should be played with 6 players...just read this if you haven't yet (7th post from the bottom - the long one):
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=592

Anyway +25% HP is could be a lot but you have to realize that the EMPLACEMENT receives HP, not the crew so killing the crew is not harder. And those -10% penetration actually is not all that much either, Schrecks have 100% penetration against emplacements iirc so after the unlock about every 10th should bounce off (on average) so what do you mean by "bouncing off even more often"?

[Krieger Blitzer]

No one complained about them simply cause no one was aware of them!

-Hey, the US engineers are always able to build tank traps SINCE THE START dude... I mean they don't need to choose any doc for that.

-Tank traps aren't supposed to cost anything.. just without this infinite HP. Or for what reasons they should remain being stronger than Bunkers while if not even having more HP too I wonder???

-Demo Storms are limited to only a single one as a global spawning use??? Hmm?


Doesn't such things make some sense in ur opinion or what??!! ^^

The Schrecks are often bouncing off the emplacements; specifically those ones that are boosted from the RE doc.
Arty shells seem to be doing minor damage usually as well.

[Wolf]

Thats not true, even when I played regularly we all know that especially cw emplacements are crucial to their strategy, because they are so durable. That was true all the time.

Tank traps were never a problem and I still don't think they are, even "SINCE THE START"... and what? You're gonna go waste your resources on the start without picking doctrines? They are at that time used only to cover bridges and I don't have a problem with that.

What global spawning use? They are limited to one and what is so unbelievable on that? We had limits on units since god knows why, but suddenly after years you need to have more than one?

I fully understand that MarKr argues there with you all. Only thing I can relate to is remove bouncing of AT weapons from emplacements, with main reason being that it looks silly.

Playing on bigger maps is also not new, we sometimes did that with my mate at that time, but mostly players didn't want to play/join, as they thought that its 3vs3 and not 2vs2. Although we played it mostly because of boredom of the same 2vs2 maps rather than balance.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Then why can't the Wh Pioneers build them also without being in need to first pick up the Def doc???

Again; why should the tank traps remain to have more HP than Bunkers???!!! Why not for them to just cost nothing but being weakened in HP on the other hand?? Doesn't this sound better I guess?

I am just saying that the Demo Storms are going to be more needed then when the Assault ones would become unable to crawl anymore without the veterancy unlock, or this probably won't happen?

[Wolf]

Because if we are talking about the same stuff, it was supposed to be destroyed by demolitions. No, making them free doesn't sound better.

So you want to abuse crawl with demos instead of assaults? :p

[Krieger Blitzer]

Well, Demo Storms can't upgrade Schrecks.. they don't spawn with an STG and also they are only 4 men! I guess it's not going to be anyhow a tougher abuse than when to currently use the Assault ones.
The Blitz doc had been always working like this already and so I believe this is going to be a huge nerf if the Demo Storms won't receive a higher limit on the other hand...

EVEN demolitions are unable to kill a single tank trap btw o.O They just have infinite HP, believe me.

And plz, US engineers shouldn't be able to build tank traps without choosing the Inf doc!

[Wolf]

How many times exactly did somebody NOT pick doctrine to be able to build tank traps? -.- we will probably restrict it, but I really think you are making huge mess about... well nothing really.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I am honestly not trying to create any kind of a mess, however that then I am really sorry if I had been probably a bit too tensioned with my very serious sentences or by showing such an attitude regarding these points which are not that important perhaps...
But yet I believe such minor things could be still causing some disbalance or maybe harming the fun factor of the game somehow!
Anyways..

[Warhawks97]

Tank traps.... i never ever really cared who has them and who has not. But is it that cruical?

One thing that could be changed is that tank shells and Hendheld AT´s shouldnt bounce from emplacment simply as it looks stupid.

RE emplacment boost could be replaced with heavy spare fire ability from arty doc maybe but thats not because of any disbalance being created by strong emplacments but rather to fill the docs role as heavy breakthrough doctrine a bit better.

[MarKr]

No one complained about them simply cause no one was aware of them!

I strongly disagree with this statement...
I don't really see the point of your problems with tanktraps. You can only benefit from this in the early game until you choose a doctrine...and if you consider the fact that very often people suggest to drop or increase a price of certain early units (and these suggestions are usually only +- 15 MP) in order to make them more appealing or delay their fielding in early game, who is gonna waste 50 - 100 MP in early game just build some tank traps and cut off some small part of a map to tanks which at that time are not even present?

Anyway, if Wolf says that the lowered penetration will be removed from the unlock, then OK, I won't say another thing against it.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Oh well, just to clarify;

Actually.. I am one of those who never plays pure bridge maps such as Lyon or Scheldt and so on!

But the problem is that the tank traps are NOT only used on bridges, neither only at early game... They are often used on some other narrow maps which are all about small paths too.

Exactly like the case with the map called Road to Montherm for example, the US Inf doc player will be pushing so hard in order to secure the territories so strongly at the early game with his Combat Engineers and HE Jumbos combined with arty etc... And then LATER he will just stop to camp while building emplacements everywhere.. also he will be BLOCKING all the possible routes or the roads where the tanks are in need to move on! By constructing such tank traps of which are literally indestructible. Behind them are also some anti tank mines!!!
It's requiring something more like to be probably about 15 minutes in order to destroy just 3 road blocks that are costing only 75MP.

So as Wolf maybe agreed on this one too, they should be restricted ONLY to the Inf doc anyways just like the Wh.. as it's restricted there already only for the Def doc Pioneers... Am I wrong I wonder?
With also a greatly weakened HP for all the roadblocks as well.. I believe it's necessary. Even demolitions can't break them!!

One more thing I also forgot to mention; That the demo Storms are not only unable to upgrade any Schrecks beside the other disadvantages of which I already mentioned above regarding this unit.. but also they are unable to get any LMGs too!! So they aren't anyhow going to be any other mean of a similar abuse instead of the Assault Storms on the other hand... As they won't be having the same fire power as the Assault ones anyways, so simply NO sense of limiting this unit to only a single one as a global spawn use.. I mean specifically if the Assault Storms are going to be unable to crawl anymore without the veterancy training unlock.
I guess they could also get a 'slightly' more price increase then!

[Butterkeks]

Imo there's nothing wrong with emplacements. They wouldn't make any sense if they hadn't that much HP. And Especially Axis have more than enough arty to counter them.

Tanktraps? Anybody builds them?

I veeeeery rarely see Amis building Tank traps. Maybe one out of fifty games. And even if they do so, that's wasted MP so they have less units. That means it's way easier for me to.blow them up. Just one (dunno what's it called im english, the thing all sappers can use after unlocking it) and they are gone.

Allies have it im every doc afaik because germans have way more heavy tanks so it gives allies more possibilites to ambush them.
So I really don't see a problem with tanktraps at all.

And why is there suddenly a need for more demo squads? You have a four man squad that can be equiped with 4 STG44s, can camouflage themselves, plant explosives and throw nades while crouching. O'd say one is more than enough.

[Warhawks97]

I havent seen tank in any game this year and ive never seen them deciding the end of an game. Sometimes roads in towns are blocked with them but in towns you see more infantry anyway.


Shots wont bounce off from emplacments, thats good, everything else regarding emplacments isnt anyhow a balance issue.