Jagdpanzer IV/70

[Warhawks97]

Ok, figured out why this tank is often so very hard to kill. Most complains are about the miss shots against it and.... here it comes now-

I found special modifiers on IV/70 and IV/48.

The IV/70 has:
received penetration modifier: 0.65
received accuracy modifier: 0.85

IV/48:
received penetration modifier: 0.9
received accuracy modifier: 0.75

So these modifiers are added to the basic accuracy of each weapon (like 0.65 for zooks at long range which is 65%), against target type and if moving or not.

that might be the reasons, though i can be mistaken but that how it looks like for me and that would explain a lot.


so....

0.85 (mid range range zook accuracy)x 0.75 (accuracy vs JP IV)x 0.5 (IV in move)x0.85 (IV/70 received accuracy modifier)= 0,2709375= 27,1% hit chance with M6A3C missiles from mid range when IV/70 is moving.

0.5 (zook M6A3C pen chance vs JP IV)x 0.65 (IV/70 received pen)=0,325= 32,5% pen chance.


well it seems that the IV/70 is only killable by gammon bombs and stickies pared with off map arty^^.

just for fun:
0.75 (sherman max range accuracy)x 0.75 (accuracy vs JP IV)x 0.85 (IV/70 received accuracy)=0,478125= 47,81% hit chance.
0.45 ( sherman pen chance vs JP IV)x 0.84 (sherman mid range pen loss)x 0.65 (received penetration of IV/70)x 1.54 (sherman 76 HVAP boost)= 0,378378= 37,87% pen chance from mid range and HVAP.

I dont give a gurantee that this is correct but thats how it seems to be. So when you fight jagdpanzer IV/70 use stickies untill its immobile and then arty. Everything else would be a waste of res

[Alman]

is there any differances between jp4/70 A and D versions ?

[Warhawks97]

is there any differances between jp4/70 A and D versions ?

D?

There is IV/A (def doc), IV/48 and IV/70 (th). so yeah, the TH one is by far strongest due to its own modifiers.

I also checked the "hull down" ability of it. Thats also nice. it gives to that tank also:

received pen modifier: 0.65 (so its literally unpenetrationable. Coz the pen chance you see above once more muliplier with 0.65)
received damage modifier: 0.65
reload time: 0.85 (so it shoots faster)
accuracy: 1.25 (shoots more accurate)
range increase: +5
received accuracy modifier: 0.5 (add that to the overall low received accuracy). Thats why two paks once shot 1 mins on your "hull down" IV/70 wihtout killing it coz nothing can really hit or pen it.


so, the way you play this doc and the IV/70+ Luft inf support is only stoppable by arty or far superior quantity. When you have two of them that kept under repairs by bergetiger and inf with advanced repairs you just cant kill them. And when luft provides support then there is also no chance for stickies or gammon bombs. Also Tank commanders also maybe reduce received accuracy.... so there is literally no chance anymore to hit that tank even xD. Killing that tank in a normal way (not with arty) is like winning the jackpot of the euro jackpot:D



so you guys probably created one of the most deadliest strategies with axis armor


still i dont give 100% gurantee that it is like that but it pretty much seems like that.^^

[Krieger Blitzer]

All the Jags are just fine as they are currently.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Add here zimmerit upgrade, i think it also reduces incoming accuracy.

I agree, this jagds are so crazy, impossible to destroy with handled at or any kind of 76mm cannons, will be much better if they will not so unhitable.

[Alman]

yes it is my tactic, i teached that to my team (takoz,neco,mussolini). most of time we won but nowadays nobody want to play with us. we are studying allies now

[Warhawks97]

All the Jags are just fine as they are currently.

all, but not the IV/70. Nothing can hit that thing. The IV/A from def doc is much easier to kill.


Just add all bonuses.... the received accuracy is like 0 even when you stay in front of it. Often enough ive seen dozens of M6A3C bazookas staying in front of it and just failing/bouncing. And just add all the normal bonuses of the Jagpanzer IV TT, IV/70 modifer and hull down modifier, nothing will or penetrate it. I sometimes seen hull down IV/70 being under fire of 17 pdr paks etc for several mins and nothing was happening.

@Alman: nice job ... keep going evaluating tactics and strategies like you did it here.



Generally i do like it when the IV/70 keeps the best of all Jagdpanzer IV´s regarding received low accuracy and penetration. Just maybe some modifiers are set too high. The basic penetration chance against Jagdpanzer IV TT is generally pretty low already so i think the 0.65 modifier for received penetration is a little but too high here as it makes this unit as hard to penetrate as a KT or so. A o0.8 modifier would make it already better compared to all others Jagdpanzer IV.

The received accuracy modifier of hull down ability is with 0.5 maybe also a little bit high, not sure though.

That this tank should be pretty hard to hit is ok due to its low silhouete.

[Krieger Blitzer]

The price of this tank was increased on 486 and now it's fine... For now it's the backbone of the TH doc, of which is already a useless doc!

[ShadowIchigo]

All the Jags are just fine as they are currently.

Just add all bonuses.... the received accuracy is like 0 even when you stay in front of it. Often enough ive seen dozens of M6A3C bazookas staying in front of it and just failing/bouncing. And just add all the normal bonuses of the Jagpanzer IV TT, IV/70 modifer and hull down modifier, nothing will or penetrate it. I sometimes seen hull down IV/70 being under fire of 17 pdr paks etc for several mins and nothing was happening.

lmfao, this statement right here reminds me of when i think it was alman and some of his team we played against warhawks. you had 76 mm and i think it was my 17pdr, or a stolen pak, firing for like 5 minutes at a disabled hull downed jagpanzer

[Warhawks97]

The price of this tank was increased on 486 and now it's fine... For now it's the backbone of the TH doc, of which is already a useless doc!

haha... its "usless" doc because axis dont lack AT capabilies at all, doesnt matter which doc is played. But you know what, I played against and with alman seeing him beating only infantry docs with this tank because this tank soaks so much damage from enemie weapons without being really destroyable.

And this doc isnt useless. If just one takes this doc he is able to deny all enemie armor, even when all 4 enemies would take armor doc! So its not so "usless" as you might think. It also provides kind of map hack like luftwaffe. Luftwaffe can detect all enemie inf in a large area (hidden units and fog of war) while TH inf can detect enemie tanks and vehicles in fog of war and hidden units. So a combined playing of luft and TH doc have 100% intelligence in their area of operation.


And the tank once cost 650/100, so stop crying about cost. A comet and jacks cost more and are by far easier to kill (or to hit even). Yet you cried about ongoing change that comet will be harder to hit but at the same time completely ignoring the fact that the IV/70 has an received incoming accuracy of (exaggerating maybe, or not) like 1% (thats how it feels sometimes).



But Tiger... ask some of your mates and then try vs alman and his mates. I am sure they gonna show you what the IV/70 is capable of (esspecially two IV/70+ Bergetiger supported by second luft player). And dont come with your "1 vs 1 experience against TH doc" when playing inf doc having a ammo income of 100 per min. Alman frequently hosting 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 games.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I am crying about the cost???
Btw, it was u who suggested the new cost increase of the JPz on 486! So now I guess u r the one who should stop crying about how good it is...

[Warhawks97]

I am crying about the cost???
Btw, it was u who suggested the new cost increase of the JPz on 486! So now I guess u r the one who should stop crying about how good it is...

i know.... but when you said "it got coct increase already" i just said that the unit was once even more expensive. Thats all.



About the stats it feels like a doc hunting his own tai. There are alone in PE four different JP Iv types. Jagdpanzer IV, IV/early, IV/48 and IV late. The "IV/A late" file seem to apply on IV/70 in PE doc but its has no modifiers. The two i did mention above seem to be the WE versions and the IV/70 file was in WE file (+ two others) and name says that it applys to the IV/A from def doc. But it somehow cant be since the IV/a from def doc is not so "unhitable" and unpenetrationable and everybody confirms that the IV/70 from PE is the hardest crackable nut of all Jagdpanzer IV/versions which- according file stats- would be the def doc IV/A. I think there is something srsly messed with the Jagdpanzer IV files and for me the - comparing game files with game experience- makes the IV/70 file in WE file to be the one being used for the PE IV/70 somehow. I have no other explanations for it. I mean two file names (early and late version in PE file) do seem to have the same ingame name (IV/70).

Edit: it might be that the "IV/early" in PE file applys to the IV/70. It has an received accuracy modifier of 0.75 and it could be the ingame IV/70 of PE. That could explain why it is so hard to hit.

[kwok]

The amount of times I've abused the IV/70...
Tankhunter doc is the outright most powerful late game PE doc, imo. If there is Zimmer coating + tech tree vet + commander, it is invincible. So that counters all armor. The little tanks with the rockets on them (forgot their name) gets rid of strong AT emplacements, like 17pdrs (but a buffed IV/70 can basically toe-to-toe a "naked" 17pdr). And PE scout cars + ss inf make quick work with inf. It counters everything except for off map. Honestly, the true "counter" (this means no including micro-intensive tactics, because the amount of micro for PE to get out, let alone avoid, of those plays is minimal) is off map support like never-ending arty and plane strikes (which in themselves aren't that hard to dodge).
The best way to fight tank doc is to gain the early-mid game, deny fuel, and avoid fights to deny CP. Push for a quick end game scenario with map control to keep the tanks in the base or drive PE spending into reinforcements rather than tanks. This is all contingent on knowing that the opponent goes tankhunter though... not exactly fair and becomes more like a gambit... Like, I wouldn't play this way if I were going to go against SE.
So, it's not impossible to beat a tank doc, easier in smaller game scenarios (get's harder with larger games because other players can support tank doc by letting the tank doc save its resource).
On the topic of balance, it's not that the tank doc is impossible. But, what would be the definition of OP here? Tactics wise, I'd say tank doc is near invincible. Strategy wise, I'd say tank doc is easy to counter (on 1v1's, 2v2's, MAYBE 3v3's). Making "balancing" changes here really depends on how the devs want to control the game I think. More strategic focused or tactic focused? Of course both, but where is the line? Axis in general are more "strategy" focused and can get away with extremely weak tactical skills. The strategies of course are made even easier for Axis on smaller maps (like Axis strategies are only a LITTLE bit better than the average Allies players I think).
I obviously am biased towards Allies because my honest opinion after playing all factions is Axis is just easier to play and win in the "common" environment. So, I would be pro-balancing towards Allies, but I think it is more than just fixing this unit. Once again, I'd say play on larger maps and see how balance works then... you will see a lot more new ways to tackling problems and challenges open up.

[Krieger Blitzer]

As I said it before several times.. there actually seem to be absolutely no Axis fanboys over here, all are only Allies fanboys ^^ Maybe just few average players of whom are not even participating on the forums having some fanatic fake Axis stats fighting only other noobs! o.O

And so; although that I believe I am not also a pure Axis fanboy as well because of that I like to play US as I do have good stats with them too... I am the only voice here defending Axis just for the sake of balance. Or this way, the devs will keep always hearing the same stuff or the same complaints everyday towards the Allies favor when I will then leave it for u guys to imagine how this mod is going to be looking like!!

Alright, let me say it now clearly:-
I find it much easier usually while playing as Allies. And NOT as Axis...

I obviously am biased towards Allies

SoOo much about many Axis fanboys!!! U know...

HellOoO Axis fanboys! Does anybody hear me I wonder??? No good one I would probably know anywhere?

[Wolf]

Well then, prove it against good Axis players Tiger? Idk, but seems like sukin, warhawks and shadow for example seem to play often, so why don't you fight them as allies, take whoever you want to your team also, in 2vs2 or 3vs3 game, after few games you'd see if they are right or not?

I don't think that I am biased towards any side, but I can't deny the facts, like that churchils for example are long time underperforming, same with stormtroopers overperforming (and some weakening was already planned, but sukins idea is probably even better solution, which only takes away something until some time). Axis are currently stronger in mid game and about even in late game I think, so especially the mid game part is getting most of the changes. On the other way, we also plan to buff late game axis heavies. But if you want stronger heavies, don't expect to get buffs in midgame. I kind of get frustration of players that lose brand new KT to single airstrike, on the other hand if we take away ability to destroy them by tanks that aren't in armor docs, how exactly are you supposed to destroy them? Arty? I have to consider stuff like that in balancing, then people come how it was awesome when axis tanks were undestroyable, and tell us how we ruin it, awesome, really.

[kwok]

LOL or me Tiger... You've dodged me for like a year now.

[Warhawks97]

The amount of times I've abused the IV/70...
Tankhunter doc is the outright most powerful late game PE doc, imo. If there is Zimmer coating + tech tree vet + commander, it is invincible. So that counters all armor. The little tanks with the rockets on them (forgot their name) gets rid of strong AT emplacements, like 17pdrs (but a buffed IV/70 can basically toe-to-toe a "naked" 17pdr). And PE scout cars + ss inf make quick work with inf. It counters everything except for off map. Honestly, the true "counter" (this means no including micro-intensive tactics, because the amount of micro for PE to get out, let alone avoid, of those plays is minimal) is off map support like never-ending arty and plane strikes (which in themselves aren't that hard to dodge).
The best way to fight tank doc is to gain the early-mid game, deny fuel, and avoid fights to deny CP. Push for a quick end game scenario with map control to keep the tanks in the base or drive PE spending into reinforcements rather than tanks. This is all contingent on knowing that the opponent goes tankhunter though... not exactly fair and becomes more like a gambit... Like, I wouldn't play this way if I were going to go against SE.
So, it's not impossible to beat a tank doc, easier in smaller game scenarios (get's harder with larger games because other players can support tank doc by letting the tank doc save its resource).
On the topic of balance, it's not that the tank doc is impossible. But, what would be the definition of OP here? Tactics wise, I'd say tank doc is near invincible. Strategy wise, I'd say tank doc is easy to counter (on 1v1's, 2v2's, MAYBE 3v3's). Making "balancing" changes here really depends on how the devs want to control the game I think. More strategic focused or tactic focused? Of course both, but where is the line? Axis in general are more "strategy" focused and can get away with extremely weak tactical skills. The strategies of course are made even easier for Axis on smaller maps (like Axis strategies are only a LITTLE bit better than the average Allies players I think).
I obviously am biased towards Allies because my honest opinion after playing all factions is Axis is just easier to play and win in the "common" environment. So, I would be pro-balancing towards Allies, but I think it is more than just fixing this unit. Once again, I'd say play on larger maps and see how balance works then... you will see a lot more new ways to tackling problems and challenges open up.

nice speech and well done with analyzing the game types.

Its more than sure that in the common enviroment, when you just wait and let random players join 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 games, its usually win for axis. Simply, as you said, you go for some res points, defend them and beat allis from range and using the strong defensive options that are also excellent for ranged fights. get arty, get tanks and finally you win without many tactical skills. Allies are a lot about tatics (unless you use that single SP unit which is against the game principles) whenever you wanna kill an enemie unit.


Also good point about TH doc and its cons in 1 vs 1 fights and pros in teamfights.


@Wolf. Ive never really lost a game as axis when i played together with sukin (only once i can remember). In fact, most of the time it was easy going when. Terror and BK doc was best combo we did. But yeah, shadow me and sukin, good idea. I would say me BK or SE, shadow luft and Sukin terror or BK. Would be fun for sure.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Well then, prove it against good Axis players Tiger? Idk, but seems like sukin, warhawks and shadow for example seem to play often, so why don't you fight them as allies, take whoever you want to your team also, in 2vs2 or 3vs3 game, after few games you'd see if they are right or not?

I don't think that I am biased towards any side, but I can't deny the facts, like that churchils for example are long time underperforming, same with stormtroopers overperforming (and some weakening was already planned, but sukins idea is probably even better solution, which only takes away something until some time). Axis are currently stronger in mid game and about even in late game I think, so especially the mid game part is getting most of the changes. On the other way, we also plan to buff late game axis heavies. But if you want stronger heavies, don't expect to get buffs in midgame. I kind of get frustration of players that lose brand new KT to single airstrike, on the other hand if we take away ability to destroy them by tanks that aren't in armor docs, how exactly are you supposed to destroy them? Arty? I have to consider stuff like that in balancing, then people come how it was awesome when axis tanks were undestroyable, and tell us how we ruin it, awesome, really.

Sukin is an overall good player with all factions to be honest!

Warhawks is almost an Allies only player. Even Erich too!
Shadow is an strictly Brits only player for sure.
Kwok is probably the same.
Jim is also the an Allies only player. Playing Brits..

While me is someone who loves to play using tanks wherever they were.. whatever on the Axis side or the Allies one actually...
So I guess I am successful with both the Armor doc and the Axis Tigers! But I am not good with the PE TH doc. The Armor doc is the easiest for me if u ask.. but definitely not against the TH; and I don't complain about this because it's actually supposed to be like that!

Here my point was that they keep always claiming that the Axis fanboys are a lot much more than the Allies ones of which is something seemingly NOT true.
Today I had a 3v3 game as Axis with randoms; me playing Terror with MSchane and a third unknown player with a long name! Against Conan, Fritz and someone else.
Actually.. we lost!! They played 1 RE, 2 inf docs. While we were Terror, Luft and Def! On the map Caen.

I have surely participated several times before with playing in their frequent team fights. But the times when I fought as Allies Hawks as Axis.. he always chooses the PE in order to show me the 88s. But I guess he failed somehow!! Plus that I am speaking more deeply about the weakness of the Wh faction and not the PE... I just don't like as well as I believe u do the same, how Hawks keep complaining for the Allies all the day and night while exaggerating most of the times with such fictional nasty scenarios!

However that u r telling me to play against Sukin, Hawks and Shadow all as Axis in one team... U know what; I wouldn't mind.. but I wonder what kind of expert players I will have in my team in order to balance this out??!! Cyber and Keks?? I guess it wouldn't be a pleasure.
Surely there are some more experienced players, but we won't be such a good team. Team-fights is about teams!!!

[Warhawks97]

Sukin is an overall good player with all factions to be honest.
Warhawks is almost an Allies only player.
Shadow is an strictly Brits only player for sure.
Kwok is probably the same.

what? Ive spend most time on axis side, currently i play like all two weeks an normal allied game and being then often pissed again to stay away from allied (not pissed, rather frustrated by the 0 fun i do have playing them or simply the "axis funkiller shit"). Since 2011 ive spend lot of time on both sides, my most successfull doc is BK doc (also SE i would say). Just in the past ive got very often forced to play as allied (esspecially before the last few patches which changed some cost, jeep efficency, costs of certain abilities). Also i stay away from BK for a while playing almost only vcoh where i could simply enjoy to play US as well being having rifles being worth to build througout the game, less endless invincible axis defenses lines and everywhere these silly arty and 88s and enjoyed for a while the vcoh game dynacmis (where i also learned how to increase the game dynamic simply by changing cost and cost efficency ratio of certain defenive and offensive units).


shadow spend lot of time with RAF to become as good as he is know. As Luft doc he just needed like 3 games to figure out how to play the doc quite effectively (or at least knowing, or to win some games).

Sukin is simply great player. Still he admitt that he no more fun with AB coz grens shreds them quite often and coz when a Hellcat fails to kill a Panther, then all his units get shred by axis tanks. That are his words. And his most deadly doc is probably Terror but also BK doc and i am spending lot of time watching is streams.

kwok. Overall has great strategic skills. He plays 2 vs 2 and 1 vs 1 on 4 vs 4 maps just to make games a lot more strategically. He has spend thousand hours in BK (and he plays BK since a long time already). He is playing all factions quite well, he has read sun tzu and yeah... what else to say.


jeez.... Its NOT a secret that all players that play BK for years like shadow, butter and cyber, illa, sgt smith, JoeThePro, LeePriest, Terence, HF9 clan, my old clan, WTC clan, elpiojoxp, erich, Zimmermann and many many more but also less "oldies" like falcon, panda and again many others are biased towards allied. Some more, some less. Just yesterday Terence worte me that he got sick of US 76 lottery gun and that he feels that he always must send 5 Hellcats just to make sure, doesnt matter what kind of armor he wants to kill. I told him to go to forum and you know what he said? He is not in mood for endless discussions (with you) although i told him that you agree about the 76 gun being lottery gun that need to be fixed/reworked.


And you still put your "allied fanboy" stamp on everyone who wants some buffs on allies even when those have very good arguments but also lots of experience. Damn.... i dont want to count the ammount of guys that ran away from forum (like elpio, joe, lee, panda etc) just because they got blamed as allied fanboy whenever they said somethiing against axis or for allied.


And honestly we dont give a shit for axis or allied.... we have no "favorit" faction or something (for a long time in cosh and BK, esspecially first year, i was very biased towards axis coz i simply loved their tanks and raged when they buffed the shermans in vcoh). All we actually want is a ammount of balance that makes both sides enjoyable to play but also similiar hard, both sides with pro and cons but always with equiped with adequiate tools to deal with certain situations. But certain things simply killing all fun and currently its maybe only bad luck that most of this is currently on axis side. I am NOT mainly talking about their tanks but rather certain abilties and units.


Personally, what kills for me the fun to play allied, is often the horrible cost/efficency ratio among many units on allied side (mainly vehicles, some tanks), that esspecially US units are balanced on their mass prod cost, not their standard cost, the never ending crazy axis campy games (esspecially when half of the enemie team makes nothing else than defenses, paks, ths etc), the inadequate ammount of tools provided to allied docs (only RA can handle all that shit often) while at the same time dozens of arty units start shooting accross the map soon after game start.

And if you now say: "But axis cant win without that" (sd2, 0 cp walking stuka, current naked 88 etc) and when it would be somehow true in future i will be MORE than willing to find other things to balance that (like cost adjustments of other units etc). But i am simply getting rid when i see how many noobs are succesfull with axis while playing like dumbs and using 0 tacitcal skill.... only arty arty arty and lots of defense+ big tanks later (finally crying when they lose them in a very foolish way). Even axis required training, skills and tactics to be successfull. I would even say, that for axis, the skills of their officers, platoon leaders and tactics had been just as important (if not more) as their weapon systems. But in BK it seems to be completely the opposite.

I dont know if you understand this, i just hope you do. I am not going again into a deeper discussion so just take it that way and thats how i and many others of my mates do feel of which not few left BK and looking full with hope towards.

[Krieger Blitzer]

But I can see u got not such a great stats with any Axis faction, which is contradicting with what u r saying now that u spend most of ur times playing Axis... Maybe u used to be playing Axis in the old times but currently.. u just don't!

illa isn't an old player. Even newer than me actually..

I was saying that there are no Axis fanboys or really few ones. While u r approving that btw!! The Allies fanboys are much more... Because Allies currently or I mean; 'recently' it's someways more fun to play as them!

I am not putting any Allies fanboy stamps at anyone, or then I would have done this at my own self. As I was the one who managed with u for better Allies on 486!!

[Warhawks97]

But I can see u got not such a great stats with any Axis faction, which is contradicting with what u r saying now that u spend most of ur times playing Axis... Maybe u used to be playing Axis in the old times but currently.. u just don't!

you dont read:
-Ive often got forced to play allis (esspecially US coz nobody wanted to)
- I play a lot with randoms as axis vs guys like cyber etc, knowing that i will probably lose, still winning quite often against other experienced players.
- It shows only steam time.... i play BK since 2011, having there 5 acc´s and on 4 of them i had best win/loss ration with axis. Also all my longest streaks had been made with axis, PE esspecially
- Played a LOT of vcoh.... ive got like 15 losses there as axis coz its so freaking different (more upgrades etc), still very fun to play, esspecially PE.
- Same with US in vcoh, just ive won more as ive been used with US squad size and vetercany mechanics.
- I played allis ONLY with mates.... VERY rarely with randoms. Usually only with a handfull players. If i would play axis only with them i wouldnt have lost a single game probably.

So just think before talking.... i also told you that in several topics and in steam!! So stop spreading such bullshit comments. ALSO me and many others DONT use stuhs, stupas etc. I had my crusade with 88´s and ive lost 1 out of 10 games, even with newbie axis. I am now refusing using naked 88, sector arty on enemie territory, sd2 and stuff. I am refusing using stuhs before you started playing BK mod! When i play axis seriously than i dont simply want to win, i want to have fun, i want to be forced to use my units more smart instead of just camping arround with 88´sbunkers and stuhs as it is pure bullshit and kills all fun. So prefer to lose the game before i start using any of these funkillers! Thats why i know that axis would still be playble even without stupa/stuh and their mega range, without silly naked 88, without sd2 even and without sector arty on enemie territory

And i think i uploaded enugh "Blitzkrieg rush replays" when playing axis with those players i am used to play allis! I play a lot with real noobs as axis, not seldomly they hardly leave their base! MOST frequently among axis noobs: Big tanks, but NEVER reccon.... so most of the time i keep producing reccons as axis so that my noob mates dont rush blindly with their big tanks like a fool into the next 17 pdr.

illa isn't an old player. Even newer than me actually..

even those realize it quickly.

[Krieger Blitzer]

U obviously considered my sentence regarding ur Axis stats as an offense, which surely wasn't... Anyways!

[Wolf]

I didn't tell you that you should play against them all in one team, if you think warhawks is not a good axis player, well, play against him, then you get one/two good mate and hawks one/two, and its ready ?