Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Talk about CoH1 or BKMOD1 in general.
kwok
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Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by kwok »

Hello all. I've finally succumbed to the pressure and joined the forums. But, before I become more active, I want to explain why I was reluctant to joining and what I plan to do on the forums.
Most people asked me to come to the forums to help them politically and push balance changes. I wouldn't mind doing this normally, but the forum here has become too hostile and negative.

Currently there are 4206 posts on the BK1 board. 1670 of them are under balancing/suggestions. over in the "general" board, at least half of the 1092 are MORE balancing/suggestion posts. This makes over 52% of the posts essentially about balance and suggestions which are often dished out as criticisms towards mods. The forum, to me, has essentially turned into a place for complaining and whining. Probably less than 10% of the posts are compliments to the devs (mostly found in the announcements board when new patches are released. I doubt all 444 are compliments to the devs...). This is one of the best mods for CoH, and in my opinion one of the best mods for all games out there. I put more hours in BK mod than any other game I've ever played. Yet, the devs for this mod are treated probably the worst. I go out to other forums for other mods and devs are so appreciated and that mod just grows and grows into amazing things. Meanwhile, BKmod becomes stagnant and hostile between players and devs. How is this fair?

Now I know the forum was MADE as a tool to eventually turn the mod into the best mod there is (in my books it is already the best mod of all). So, I get the importance of the balancing/suggestions board and I'm not saying it should be removed and updates should stop here. But, can we please at least treat this forum not as an arena for politics and complaining? Every time I'm asked to get on the forums its to push for some idea in an argument here. I joined the forum not to jump into the arena but because I want to make a positive impact on the community (see BKNC and what it stands for. I went to Shadow, everyone's friend on BK, telling him my ideas for improving the general atmosphere of the community and we plus Illa started up a group focused on just making people friendlier and constructive).

I'll try to bring my opinions to balancing as much as I think is worth bringing up.
But before doing all that I think it's worth talking about something that we as a community can do to show appreciation for the devs. I work unusual hours now and don't have time to play BK much anymore, let alone come up with and organize some community effort for the devs. So, will you guys help me out in brainstorming ideas to making things better for the devs and everyone else in the community? Because when devs are unhappy, players are unhappy. When players are unhappy, we don't get new players and the community dies. When the community dies, there will be no more new memories of BK. We've already lost a lot of great people because they just out right didn't like the environment anymore (nothing to do with the balancing). Let's stop this trend and try to better ourselves before trying to better the game.

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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

kwok wrote:Hello all. I've finally succumbed to the pressure and joined the forums. But, before I become more active, I want to explain why I was reluctant to joining and what I plan to do on the forums.
Most people asked me to come to the forums to help them politically and push balance changes. I wouldn't mind doing this normally, but the forum here has become too hostile and negative.

Currently there are 4206 posts on the BK1 board. 1670 of them are under balancing/suggestions. over in the "general" board, at least half of the 1092 are MORE balancing/suggestion posts. This makes over 52% of the posts essentially about balance and suggestions which are often dished out as criticisms towards mods. The forum, to me, has essentially turned into a place for complaining and whining. Probably less than 10% of the posts are compliments to the devs (mostly found in the announcements board when new patches are released. I doubt all 444 are compliments to the devs...). This is one of the best mods for CoH, and in my opinion one of the best mods for all games out there. I put more hours in BK mod than any other game I've ever played. Yet, the devs for this mod are treated probably the worst. I go out to other forums for other mods and devs are so appreciated and that mod just grows and grows into amazing things. Meanwhile, BKmod becomes stagnant and hostile between players and devs. How is this fair?

Now I know the forum was MADE as a tool to eventually turn the mod into the best mod there is (in my books it is already the best mod of all). So, I get the importance of the balancing/suggestions board and I'm not saying it should be removed and updates should stop here. But, can we please at least treat this forum not as an arena for politics and complaining? Every time I'm asked to get on the forums its to push for some idea in an argument here. I joined the forum not to jump into the arena but because I want to make a positive impact on the community (see BKNC and what it stands for. I went to Shadow, everyone's friend on BK, telling him my ideas for improving the general atmosphere of the community and we plus Illa started up a group focused on just making people friendlier and constructive).

I'll try to bring my opinions to balancing as much as I think is worth bringing up.
But before doing all that I think it's worth talking about something that we as a community can do to show appreciation for the devs. I work unusual hours now and don't have time to play BK much anymore, let alone come up with and organize some community effort for the devs. So, will you guys help me out in brainstorming ideas to making things better for the devs and everyone else in the community? Because when devs are unhappy, players are unhappy. When players are unhappy, we don't get new players and the community dies. When the community dies, there will be no more new memories of BK. We've already lost a lot of great people because they just out right didn't like the environment anymore (nothing to do with the balancing). Let's stop this trend and try to better ourselves before trying to better the game.


+1

But from my side btw, I guess that I have been always that one who sincerely tried to continuously help and support the devs! Special greetings to all of them.. with true honest.

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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by JimQwilleran »

kwok wrote:But before doing all that I think it's worth talking about something that we as a community can do to show appreciation for the devs. I work unusual hours now and don't have time to play BK much anymore, let alone come up with and organize some community effort for the devs. So, will you guys help me out in brainstorming ideas to making things better for the devs and everyone else in the community?


I think that the best way to figure out how any kind of idea is viewed by people is making much more polls here. There is a possibility of making them, so why not? For example: "Do we want 3rd bazooka removal"
1. Yes (93%)
2. No (7%)

or

"Do we want Tiger Ace removal"
1. Yes (99%)
2. No (1%)

Then everything will be clear and forum will flourish, because people love to vote!
Instead of that we have discussions of few people who use forum often. We should ask our new and silent members who would not have much voice in our long discussions.

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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

JimQwilleran wrote:"Do we want 3rd bazooka removal"
1. Yes (93%)
2. No (7%)

wow... That would be even.. such an excellent result for me actually! :lol: 93% agreeing on the third Zooka removal, much more than I would ever expect to be honest ^^ I think u meant 'No' for the 93% :P

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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by JimQwilleran »

This is just an example. Note that 99% agree on removing tiger Ace ;). I wonder who is the 1% who disagree ;D

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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by kwok »

Actually, I lied. I first came here because my game was broken and wanted help getting it fixed. But, now that I'm here I might as well be useful.

Erich
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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by Erich »

This is our pro kwok.

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ShadowIchigo
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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by ShadowIchigo »

People can make random emails thus make multiple accounts and as a result spam the vote in their favor. Do it shudnt be a deciding factor but used as an idea.. and oman.. i feel lucky that im yhe last one to talk to kwok about forums and now this lol but it has to do wit bknc too. But ididt ask kwok for support in a particular balance issue i only asked him to read and engagr on his opinins.. just like everyone shud here. But be civil, openminded..

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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by JimQwilleran »

ShadowIchigo wrote:People can make random emails thus make multiple accounts and as a result spam the vote in their favor.
If people do so then I will lose any faith in humanity... Comon this would not be president elections in US there is no need to cheat here! By the way devs (not only they, everybody) can watch how many new users are registered each day. If we see a sudden rise in new users, we know that someone is cheating! Also polls can have short duration, for example 3 days, it would be hard to change the outcome in such a short time without making somebody notice you.

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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

With IPs... Wolf could easily know which account is whose! When there are 2 accounts that are having the same IP; then it means that it's created by the same user. So cheating here wouldn't be possible in fact ;) Still, I believe polls should never become the decisions making factor of course.
If every body just shares his opinions clearly through decent discussions.. there would be no need for any polls!!

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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by JimQwilleran »

I mean, there are around 10 or 15 users who take part in discussions, but generally we have 362 members. We are not even 5% of all. We could really gain much better view of peoples minds throu polls. I dont say them to be the ultimate reasons to take or not to take some decisions, but a source of the will of the people. And this will take devs closer to the community imo. People like it when someone ask about their opinions.

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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by ShadowIchigo »

Tiger1996 wrote:With IPs... Wolf could easily know which account is whose! When there are 2 accounts that are having the same IP; then it means that it's created by the same user. So cheating here wouldn't be possible in fact ;) Still, I believe polls should never become the decisions making factor of course.
If every body just shares his opinions clearly through decent discussions.. there would be no need for any polls!!


Yea with IPS.. ofc im just saying incase he didnt have access to that.. which im sure he does

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MarKr
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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by MarKr »

Polls only show what FORUM users think, not all people out there. Polls can be tempered with just as ShadowIchigo wrote (I have no doubt that some people would try this to get their way) and I bet there are some other ways to temper with the polls results. Just look at what kwok wrote:
Most people asked me to come to the forums to help them politically and push balance changes.
I really doubt he is the only one to be asked to come to forum for this reason. And so the implications of this are that the poll results would most probably only show what these "political lobbyists" want.
Also polls are kind of a statistical survey and they get more accurate when more people take part in it so when:
there are around 10 or 15 users who take part in discussions
the polls results would actually only say what sides these 10 - 15 people took in the on going discussion. If every registered forum member were active and participated in the polls then it would be a different story but the way it is now...

So I dare to say that poll results hardly show the actual opinion of community on a topic.

Anyway, nice post, kwok :).
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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by JimQwilleran »

Ok, just don't mind me, really.

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MarKr
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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by MarKr »

Don't take this personally, Jim. I just don't think that polls represent the opinion of the whole community for the reasons given, that's all.
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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by ShadowIchigo »

nono illa it was a great idea.. but just one that wasnt well thought into. bro its fine lol.

@markr
Yea i think a discussion and actual explanation of why they think this or why that.. etc etc. is a most accurate way of obtaining information. but thats the thing, people dont give detailed explanations of why they want this or that, some do, most dont. Even with me when i first proposed my suggestions, i was being lazy and only gave small details. I didn't write a very good detailed explanation, but it wasnt bad either.

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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by Warhawks97 »

Welcome to forum kwok. One more experienced player here ;) I am so glad. I hope you enjoy your time here :)

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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by kwok »

Devs, what do YOU guys want to see from the community?

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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by Anonter »

I love this mod but i must admit the community is a little strange? I avoid pvp coz i either get kicked instantly or it's the same people playing against each other over and over.

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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by Butterkeks »

Anonter wrote:I love this mod but i must admit the community is a little strange? I avoid pvp coz i either get kicked instantly or it's the same people playing against each other over and over.



Well this is quite a phenomenon here in BK :D

The problem is that new players come to this game where mostly experienced players are left. Now these experienced ones don't want to play with those "noobs" because, well to be really honest, it just destroys the flow of the game.
Especially on Allies side, every player has a role to play depending on his doctrine and if he doesn't play it, Allies have already lost. On Axis side it's not soo hard because of more "allrounder" docs, but still it just isn't a nice game.

That's why people with low PVP stats get mostly instantly kicked. And then there are about 10-15 experienced players who now have no other possibility than to play against each other over and over because the noobs have no chance to get experience :P

The old story: You can't participate in a game because you got no experience, and you can't gain experience because you can't participate in games ^^

That's why Shadow and illa founded the Blitzkrieg noob camp, a group which purpose it is to play actively with "noobs" and help them become more experienced players in order to let the community grow again. (I still think it's a fucking outstanding idea :D )
Here's the link:
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/bknoobswilltakeover

So if you want to learn BK, join, ask people that are online for games and see your PVP stats rise :D

@Kwok: Nicely done post, I always found it kinda harsh how some people here toalk to the devs. Let's not forget that they do all this work FOR FREE!

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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Butterkeks wrote:Let's not forget that they do all this work FOR FREE!

Unless if we probably support them someways.. than just keep talking, as they deserve it... Actually!

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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by Warhawks97 »

Butterkeks wrote:That's why people with low PVP stats get mostly instantly kicked. And then there are about 10-15 experienced players who now have no other possibility than to play against each other over and over because the noobs have no chance to get experience :P

The old story: You can't participate in a game because you got no experience, and you can't gain experience because you can't participate in games ^^

That's why Shadow and illa founded the Blitzkrieg noob camp, a group which purpose it is to play actively with "noobs" and help them become more experienced players in order to let the community grow again. (I still think it's a fucking outstanding idea :D )
Here's the link:
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/bknoobswilltakeover


Yes, thats true. Most get kicked with low pvp stats. Thats why i played a lot with random players in the past weeks and months (i think you can remember).
Few days ago i even made my status "offline" coz i did want to play games only with randoms. When i am shown online and in steam and when i then start the game i see all other in my fl also starting BK and quickly comes the question "wanna play a good pvp" or "Lets come here, we need good player" or "lets look if we get enough good players" or so. Sometimes we then sit in a 4 vs 4 lobby and one side has two newbies and the other has one and each side two good players. Then quickly comes the demand "kick the noobs and do 2 vs 2". But funnily, even when going into BK in offline mode i quickly faced the same players again when they saw my lobby:P

I mean i really like playing with some new players (sometimes they have quite strange but somehow effective tactics most experts would never even think about:P) and trying to teach them sometimes. But often there are players which are... idk.... kind of unteachable or something. Like little kids that just click arround, never listen to anything and writting in team chat "ONLY 1000 MP more for JT!!" and then, when it comes and dies "OMG OMG OMG". Then i had guys which directly started building trenches and barbed wire in their own base and so i had to play more or less alone vs 3 enemies. Its like those guys have never ever played a strategy game. For those its at first recommendable to play with bots just to see which units are where to get and how the BK damage system is working.

I´d really like to do 4 vs 4 games in which each side has two new players and each side two randoms. But as you figured out its hardly possible as you need on allied side at least 3 players doing their job in order to have inf, armor and arty support. If one of those fails you can actually ask for a rematch. Or when alli newbies are not aggressive enough then axis newbies will have soon an inbreakable defense and overruning allied then with arty and big tanks to which new allied players find simply now answer that probably explains the better axis stats among new players.


And why do you think its a strange idea with that clan? personally i like the idea and its not the first time i am doing that. I would really appreciate it if we experienced players would not kick every new player that joins the game. Sometimes you might get surprised by those. Also when it comes to "lets do a good pvp" it means to face the same 10-15 players all over and over again. I know almost the exact game style from pretty much all of those and i gave nicknames to them lik "Mr. Sandbag" or "Mr. AT gun" or "Mr. Sd2" already. Well the games with those 10 players are always interesting and often played at a high level but i am asking myself if it is really a "good pvp" when playing always with the same players. A good pvp can be a game with players you have never seen before or rarely played with. Even if these games are not being played at such a high level it still can make some fun. Esspecially when you facing some new techniques, unit use etc.

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Butterkeks
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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by Butterkeks »

Warhawks97 wrote:And why do you think its a strange idea with that clan?


Shortly in german because it's more easy :P

"Fucking outstanding" heißt so viel wie "eine verdammt geile Idee" ;)

So it basically means that I love the idea of having that clan to teach new players ^^

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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by kwok »

Anonter, add me on steam (same name "Kwok", I'm the one with the elephant as a picture). BKNC would love to have you. One of our hard instilled rules is to never kick anyone because of stats or ability.

kwok
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Re: Hi, I'm Kwok. Developer Appreciation?

Post by kwok »

And Illa, can you give me group editing permissions? I can't do any work on the page at all. You might need to transfer ownership? Then it goes to the oldest member... which still wouldn't be me... HAHA.

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