Guns

[JimQwilleran]

7 seconds to 6 seconds reduction then to Panthers as well, and from 6 seconds to 5 seconds again to Tigers... DAMMIT!! Or I shortly mean they CAN'T have a similar equal reloading time here. NOWAY

-_-. You dont care about any balance and realism. You care only about not nerfing axis...

[Krieger Blitzer]

REALLY?! U THINK U R FAIR THIS WAY??!! COME ON...
Wasn't I the one who agreed with Hawks on 486 for an increased more price of Tigers, JPs, and also JPzs?? Did I object on these I wonder?! Or mainly even manged for it by my own????? Huh?!
486 was actually an Allies buff patch.. what makes u think I am an Axis fanboy????!!!!

Once I disagree Hawks, then I am an Axis fanboy but once I agree him.. then I am a good boy... Or what kind of a logic u r judging with??!!

[Jalis]

It miss you parameters about stug imo.

Perhaps I m alone to think like that, but I thing a fair unit is a unit with a fair ratio cost/efficiency/upkeep. However a unit also need to not have too low efficiency in front of it s ennemy counterpart, even cost is low. If you do that it s just become a waste of money. That why I m not too found of BK answer in case a prb is detected --- lowered cost instead of really solve the prb.

Come Back to stug. When I studied in detail the stug, my first reaction was it have been nerfed in order to offer axis early available panzer for cheap price and able to whip out any vehicle allied was able to field at this time. It could be more complicated.

If you give stug performance it deserve, what would be it s cost ? Where is the PIV place. Could a stug with normal performance make PIV useless ?

Imagine a Stug that need no CP, have same armour than a PIV, the same gun, but can also camo. the - it have no turret (is it a so big prb ?) and less defensive mg (but some complain about panzer mg lack of effectivness)

To have experienced it, it make stug an PIV in a complicated situation one toward the other.

At bk PIV armour is better than stug one. At VCOH it was the inverse. Here Vcoh was more historically accurate than bk. The Vcoh PIV is the F2, with a 50 mm frontal armour. Stug ingame is a long barrel so probably G model with 80 mm frontal armour.

Last stug gun have been nerfed at BK. I can imagine reason is balance camo bonus, but also to make it obviously too powerful for its cost.
Point hetzer gun is also nerfed probably also to balance camo bonus. I have mixed feeling about this. Try I made to give 75 mm proper value for TH didnt cause for me so much trouble. But I m not a pvp. On a other had having a true stug ingame cause me trouble in front of the PIV.

75 mm german TH nerf is on damage.

I hope it will help you to see Stug prb from an other angle Herr Tiger.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Firstly, plz don't call me 'Herr' Tiger... I really don't like such nicknames! ^^

Secondly; To be honest.. a lot of what u usually say for me is often hard to understand cause of a very weird English accent that is pretty much represented in ur statements sir. And I guess I have hinted u about that already long before anyways...

Thirdly;

If you give stug performance it deserve, what would be it s cost ? Where is the PIV place. Could a stug with normal performance make PIV useless ?

Imagine a Stug that need no CP, have same armour than a PIV, the same gun, but can also camo. the - it have no turret (is it a so big prb ?) and less defensive mg (but some complain about panzer mg lack of effectivness)

I do surely realize this very well, and that's exactly one of the reasons about why I prefer no changes!

At bk PIV armour is better than stug one. At VCOH it was the inverse. Here Vcoh was more historically accurate than bk.

That's definitely true.. and I have said it before.

75 mm german TH nerf is on damage.

What u mean?!
All ambushed tank destroyers whatever were on Axis or Allies side, do receive a quicker reloading time as Hawks mentioned... So there is no problem at all, yes!!!
That's also why I didn't really agree with Hawks when he once told me that the JP should have the same shooting range as a KT, a SP or an Elephant.
Simply becuz the JP can hide, having extended range and rof.

And btw.. the Elephant range in the stationary mode is higher than both the KT and the SP!

[Warhawks97]

But also the KT has 4.5-5.5 seconds to my surprise.

I have no idea about the realistic reloading time of the KT's cannon to be honest, but what the hell are u comparing it with as?! The KT is already so fragile and easy to get killed using several weapons (Including 76s) through pvp games... And I bet u know that already.. it's also a tank costing 200-210 fuel which is available finally after 10 CPs!!!

I am ONLY talking about a decrease from 7 to 6 seconds for stugs and 76 shermans and the one or other vehicle 1-1.5 sec faster. I just dont see the reason that oneshot canons shoot faster than smaller once which are already by far weaker damage and penetration (and range) wise.

7 seconds to 6 seconds reduction then to Panthers as well, and from 6 seconds to 5 seconds again to Tigers... DAMMIT!! Or I shortly mean they CAN'T have a similar equal reloading time here. NOWAY

U JUST DON'T LISTEN, I told u that most of the tanks is going to 'probably' receive a decreased aiming time through the next patch in order to fix the DF ability btw.

But even according to balance and not only realism, u can't compare the cannons of those tanks that are much more expensive and later available.. with the cannons of those tanks that are earlier available with a much cheaper price...

I strongly disagree any change regarding this. Simply NO sense at all...

Well. Why must tiger be always faster? oO. And i dont mind decreasing panther from 7 to 6 seconds as well.

The Tiger have good accuracy and damage and often needs to hit each tank once to kill it or to disable it. The Tiger itself takes also more hits (unless its one of these very lucky 1 shot things).

edit:

checked stug and hetzer. The Hetzer has pk 39 75 mmL/46. It has slightly worse distant muliplier than tank IV. Damage for stug and hetzer is nerfed a bit compared to Tank IV. That can be fixed maybe. The Pen_muliplier vs sherman is: 1.3 for sherman, 1.2 for stug and 1 for Hetzer. Means pen on long range for tank Iv and stug against sherman is guranteed (stug 98,4% chance). Hetzer has still 80% pen chance at long range. The Hetzer becomes a bit unreliable in late game.


Talking about unit cost efficency: The stug might be weaker but for 0 CP, early availability, more or less guranteed penetration vs sherman and 350/40 is really nothing i can complain about. A 76 sherman playing not as armor doc is absolutely not worth for 430/55 with such a poor gun. But it cost 2 CP to unlock and comes later than stugs.

the Elephant has also no accuracy drop over distant. Its always "1" multiplier.


@jalis: beside stug the Puma with 50 mm gun counters all vehicles very well or even better due to turret and general speed. It hunts even shermans.

[Jalis]

I do surely realize this very well,

...and I have said it before.

Do not confuse me with someone else. I didnt challenged you. Sorry if you felt my words like that. I just share here, because I experienced in game what happen if you really give a stug historical value. It miss me however PVP experience to expect consequence in your usual games.

Herr Tiger, For me, AKA Monsieur or Sir. It was not disrespectful. However I keep in mind you dont like Herr.

For you question. Basic 75 mn german TH damage have been lowered.

Lockdown and camo bonus as an ability are only a part of ambush advantage. There is an other linked to the unit itself. It s the first strike advantage when unit is on camo.

[Krieger Blitzer]

"Why a Tiger should be always reloading faster?!"
It's not the Tiger, it's the 88.

Ever played a ww2 game where the Axis 75mm kwk L/70 cannon of the Panther, and any Allies 76s manned on Shermans or the 17Ps for example.. were actually reloading just 'as fast as' or impossibly 'faster' than an 88mm kwk L/56 gun???!!! I doubt... Even the vCoH isn't like that mess!

Both the 75mm and the 76mm guns are of a higher muzzle velocity.. having usually slightly better penetration chances, less accuracy and more reloading times than the 88!

I think that these are a basic of A-B-C-D-E-F-G that are well known things which no one can ever doubt of.

But now;

Edit: Ok, now ive got something VERY weird: I was checking the TT of US guns against Panther and KT, Jagdpanther.

Its a huge glitch i think.

The KT in the target table list has the name "0x246AB5CC" correct?

If so then i really found a glitch here:

US 76 mm Sherman penetration Multiplier vs KT: 0.15 (15% chance)
CW 17 pdr on ahcilles and firefly pen Multiplier: 0.25 (25% chance)
US 90 mm (jackson) pen. Muliplier vs KT:....... 0.4 (40% chance)
But NOW:

US 76 Hellcat/3 inch gun M10 pen muliplier vs KT: 0.25 (25%) I think thats a glitch.

The US 76 gun on Hellcat and M10 is better vs KT as those on sherman and with HVAP maybe even better as 17 pdr with sabot rounds! But the Penetration against Tank IV and other tanks is the same as for the 76 sherman.

CW 17 pdr Achilles/firefly pen muliplier vs Tank IV_skirt: 3.2 (320%) At long/max range: 2.27(227%)/1.88(188%)
US 90 mm Jackson pen Mutiplier vs Tank IV skirts:........1.35 (135%) At long/max range: 0.95(95%)/ 0.783(78,3%)

With other words:

-76 sherman sucks always
-17 pdr is best against eveything except KT
-76 Hellcat and M10 are as bad as 76 sherman. But against KT they are better than 17 pdr!
-Jacks isnt really worth its cost. The only pro is the damage which is as high as those of KT. And 700/110 is nothing i would consider as "spamable" spam unit. When out of ammo the chances to pen a normal Tank IV is as high as 87% and not higher then 78% at max range. Note i couldnt find the special 0.8 muliplier which afaik applies to Tank IV H/J. If i would add them then the pen chance for Jacks aginst tank IV H/J is just 62,64% at max range (0.783x0.8) and 76% at long range! The cost Performence ratio for jacks sucks a bit. A 17 pdr tank like firefly and achilles are 100% pen chance vs tank IV at any distance but also better vs Panther and Tiger but costind by far less. Only vs KT and maybe other super heavies the Jacks is better as the 17pdr.

Meh, I can't confirm if this is a glitch or not.. maybe MarKr can reply u on that one!

Finally,
@Jalis;
Alright ^^ Nothing is wrong...

[Jalis]

There is plenty of things that are arguable on the TT... Like in the game itself.
I have have been far more silent about this, than you can think.

However, and here it s for Warhawk, I think you go on a dangerous terrain. I m sure Markr and Wolf are aware about these glitch. I think they just lack of time to enterly rework the TT.
Their is also an other danger. They know how it works with these problems. It s perhaps no so predidictable if the TT is reworked.

Last It s probably exciting to start understand corsix, and be able to look at stats. However it s more complicated than it appears, and plently of parameters can interfere. I made the same mistake when I started with corsix : just focus on obvious numbers Under my eyes.

[Wolf]

Its not only that we know about stuff (like hellcat vs 76mm gun), its just that some of the stuff helps to keep game different, variable, I NEVER said, that BK is historical, realistic etc.

You cant just ignore additional bonuses that you can have, either via TC, via M20, veterancy, tree upgrades, camo, ... lot of stuff which overall makes tank a tank. Its not only about if its 0,25 or 0,15.

From what I see there is just will to make everything equal, or okay, 76mm will have 75% pene while PZIV 80% pene... well awesome. What about APs? Do we want that load AP = guaranteed pene? Ambush = always pene? Many things were tuned over the years, I can't tell you why this has exactly this value, but from what I have seen, changes were made for a reason, I could understand that reasoning between this was that TDs were more "anti tank" while shermans were more multipurpose, or that allied just didn't have anything reliable against KT = we will add up percentage for TDs. IT COULD HAVE BEEN SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS THAT. It is a game, it was balanced towards it, maybe there are differences in the guns I dont know about, however I always took it as playing allied = you have to be smarter, it will be harder. Good allied player can smash average axis player with ease, that is the pro of being able to play allies. Once you know how to do it, only top axis players will be able to counter.

Axis armor / guns ARE better in this game and it was like that from the beginning and I came into this game knowing or realising that pretty fast, its how its designed to be and most of the topics over last months are only about this value is this, why axis has it better, why they have better units, why they have good 88s. why they have bunkers? Everyone here thinks that he is the only one who plays, especially seen every time warhawks or somebody say stuff like xyz is the only one who plays airborne, everybody always have RA in game, everybody leaves mod because I spam 88s. No, just nope.

Not only that, there are lots of topic about defense, campy game etc. There are actually people who enjoy campy game, or thing like waiting for more powerful stuff and until then defend. What WE didn't like was arty, because it WAS EASY. Like how many games were only about RA immobilizing shit out of everything and just spambomb it with howitz/priests? We found that easy, so we reduced it. Did I find bunkers with perma MG easy ? Yes, I reduced perma MG (remember the hate from all def players?). If and ONLY IF, some different strategy will be found as too easy, it might get reduced too. But cmon, don't argue with me with bunkers being built by 2 pio squads in HR being a problem, there are many ifs to that "strategy" which might often fail miserably.

Another thing that is sometimes argued about are price costs, okay, lets say that 76mm is (and I am not saying it is, but lets just say it) overpriced in Inf. doc... so how about instead of always fighting to make it better, just find out different strategy, that will work for you. Because honestly I could just remove 76mm from Inf doc and I don't believe that it would be a problem. That tank is there because of giving you another option, you don't have to take it, especially now when M10 and 76mm are separated. You think it will help you? There are games where it will, then buy it, if not, then don't. Inf doc is much more about inf, at guns, partially arty, not about tanks. For me, much better argument is that terror/whatever doctrine are too multipurpose, can deal with too many situations alone etc., than this have 0,1 and this 0,15... I understand that for many of you that is unthinkable, wrong or whatever, I know, I was like that before.


Tl:Dr: Don't compare all game stats one by one, see the bigger picture, allow less reality/historicality for better game.

Just FYI, there was pretty big change in how HVAPs of 76mms worked in I think 4.8.5.0->4.8.6.0, on which there were almost no comments, because it wasn't really mentioned in changelog. We are currently considering, if it was good change or not. But lack of ... anything... from experienced players is kinda disturbing .)

[JimQwilleran]

If and ONLY IF, some different strategy will be found as too easy, it might get reduced too.

Then I'd say that terror panther is too powerful, it can win game alone. I know because I mainly play terror as axis and if enemy is not armor doc, game is very often finished when I get panther and dodge arty and airstrikes. Even if I lose one, I get another, they are cheap.

Just FYI, there was pretty big change in how HVAPs of 76mms worked in I think 4.8.5.0->4.8.6.0, on which there were almost no comments, because it wasn't really mentioned in changelog. We are currently considering, if it was good change or not. But lack of ... anything... from experienced players is kinda disturbing .)

Is it ok to make changes and don't inform people about them? People trust you...

[Warhawks97]

Well. Idk what to think reading it. Yeah... maybe we dont need to use certain units. But wolf, there are currently 3 types of allied units worth tp vet up and to use.

!01st (but only as blobb later), Hellcat, Priest. You say we dont need to use certain units? Lol... what do you think is currently happening? The reason why playing allied is often frustrating and what many hate is that there are so many pointless units not worth to build coz of such stats. The allieds win games actually by priest, 101st. Hellcat. In long games the priest do 90% of all kills and its not because its the easiest way. There is a shitmount of players which dont want to to kill everything only by Priest and hellcat but which options remain. 107 mortars might be strong but to not win the games. They help to hold the line. And in 3vs 3 their value drops hard as higher ammo income allows axis to use tons of arty. So hellcats, Priest, AB.... its always like this and it becomes so boring. But whenever trying to play without it (like the last two games when allied used Inf/armor/re or inf/armor/raf they were doomed to die although they played so well with their other units like 76 shermans, jumbos, smoke cover etc.


Yes, many dont want to use always priests and hellcats to win. And now you say when this or this unit is not worth to build then dont build it! srsly? So you kicked out the arty but didnt give many alternatives. Why do you think many players used off maps strikes on tank IV´s instead using M10 or anything? Really.... go out and play. Ask them what bothers them. In my last two games as axis i had to promise not to use 88 (and no sd2) before the game started. Otherwise they would have left the game. So i think there are certain things which bothers all players and not few of these things got mentioned by me here in forum.

Then you say you considered simple arty use as too easy for allied so you reduced it. And what are axis doing? In the game i uploaded kwok asked us if there will be any minute where no nebelwerfer is being fired (we had maultier, 210 and 1-2 150). I could quickly upload another game from last night. I played with shadow and Alman General against these "107" spammer from linden. Enemie had ONLY inf docs: two inf docs and RAF. I told that to alman but he still took TH doc! And the most craziest thing: HE WON! he simply got two IV/70 and one Bergetiger. Shadow provided some stormtooper and the enemie couldnt kill the IV/70´s. They fired zooks from all sides, 107 mortars (3 of them) and commandos but nothing could kill them. The Bergetiger repaired all the time. At the end one IV/70 had 48 inf kills, 8 buildings, 3 vehicle and 1 tank. All zooks bounced but nothing really could kill them. This is what many makes raging. And as all attempts to kill the IV/70 failed alman had sooo many res that he got i think 5 or 6 hotchkiss and so he bombed his way Throught Two inf and one RAF doc with TH doc... without need of any real support from us! I just had to OP points with scout cars, getting sniper and 210 nebler and hold my side by bombing all these inf doc mortars. So basically Th doc made his way forward by by using "easily lots of arty".

Permission to win game easily with arty.
Axis:
yes, all docs.

Allied:
no (except CW arty doc but needs protection).

"There are some players who enjoy campy game.."-> Only axis. Allis would get bombed to hell trying so.


And when sherman and tank IV had the same roles, with similiar armament and armor, same role and in game similiar cost then why cant we make them "more equal" or how you call it. And i wouldnt. I gave Markr some numbers for possible changes. After these suggested changes a sherman would still have arround 50% pen chance at max range while tank IV would pen sherman still with decent 90% or more.... so NOTHING would be equal here.

The inf doc.... ive seen many players using different strategys... infilatration rangers, rifle spam, jumbos, 107, 105 sherman and howitzers, VT´s, cheap range spam, only inf with less upgrades but more off map arty etc etc etc. But on long term it often enough failed. Its then just frustrating that all the hard work trying several strategies in single game will still end in loss. And when you then watch the replay seeing how dumb the axis player played most of the time its then even more frustrating.


The game at wolfheze uploaded. All allied did a great job. Just look at their combined forces, off maps... how they killed Panther G with awesome flanking and arty combo etc etc. And what did we? Blobbing inf (esspecially BK player), using some schrecks and killing more and more tanks in silly rushes and their inf was not even more expensive. And esspecially because axis is often more fun to play, also easier by just needing some good inf squads and waiting then for late game armor/rocket arty and having ultimate schrecks i dont get why axis can then also do easy arty wins with all their docs but allied are not allowed to unless with cw arty (which is everything but an easy job as arty player).

[JimQwilleran]

The inf doc.... ive seen many players using different strategys... infilatration rangers, rifle spam, jumbos, 107, 105 sherman and howitzers, VT´s, cheap range spam, only inf with less upgrades but more off map arty etc etc etc. But on long term it often enough failed. Its then just frustrating that all the hard work trying several strategies in single game will still end in loss. And when you then watch the replay seeing how dumb the axis player played most of the time its then even more frustrating.

This is true, I have recently played inf doc against very good players and whatever was my tactic I had literary no chance. And this is frustrating. It was 3vs3 game, I played vs Luft doc so I focused on anti-inf weapons. I made and vet many rangers squad, build 107 mortar, have veted M16, 2 squads of improved bazooka just in case. Then from the other side of the map came Terror Panther. And I had to run, because 8 bazookas missed or bounced, even when fired at the side of the tank. Without inf cover enemy captured my 107... gg. Try to kill camping luft doc, even if panther go away. It's just insane that Allies lose whole game because of small mistakes or lack of luck! And this is not a matter of skill or experience. Tell me honestly, but really honestly: Have you ever seen M10 killing a full hp Panther G? Because I have never seen or even tried. M10 is shit, even from ambush panzer IV bounce it...

I told that to alman but he still took TH doc! And the most craziest thing: HE WON! he simply got two IV/70 and one Bergetiger. Shadow provided some stormtooper and the enemie couldnt kill the IV/70´s. They fired zooks from all sides, 107 mortars (3 of them) and commandos but nothing could kill them. The Bergetiger repaired all the time. At the end one IV/70 had 48 inf kills, 8 buildings, 3 vehicle and 1 tank. All zooks bounced but nothing really could kill them. This is what many makes raging. And as all attempts to kill the IV/70 failed alman had sooo many res that he got i think 5 or 6 hotchkiss and so he bombed his way Throught Two inf and one RAF doc with TH doc... without need of any real support from us! I just had to OP points with scout cars, getting sniper and 210 nebler and hold my side by bombing all these inf doc mortars. So basically Th doc made his way forward by by using "easily lots of arty".

Imo Tank destroyers should be vulnerable to inf, arty and airstrikes. But this is not true. Bazookas almost always bounce. I tired once to kill Jagdpanther with AB bomb airstrike. Those bombs can kill tiger with one hit! And this is how reall WW2 looked like! Most of axis tanks died of PLANES! GUYS PLANES. No one was stupid to use shermans vs Tigers as you try to do in this mod. They just called arty or planes support! AND I HIT JP DIRECTLY... and you know what? It took only half of HP. I lost 200 ammo, for half of HP when Bergertiger just came and repaired in it 20 sec. This is what is Hawks talking about. This is how playing as allies vs good axis player is almost always a lose.

[Krieger Blitzer]

-I surely can't confirm that everything Wolf said there is correct anyhow...

Yet, again most of what u say here like usual.. is only about such terrible infrequent scenarios!
Simply this is totally an obvious misleading.. for me it's definitely not that hard really to take out those frontal rushing Axis inf units grabbing Schrecks... Just by using HE Shermans, Quad HTs, or Scotts!! Even Crusaders got nicely buffed through previous updates. They don't seem to be any kind of super humans. ONLY Gebirgs could be a real threat now... Allies HE rounds do shred all enemy inf units very perfectly killing like 9 men with a single shot (Like Sukin said) except when fighting against those mad Gebirgs!!

Allies frontal rushing inf units could be more devastating indeed. As that the Axis inf with MP44s being behind each tank while covering it would be the only real counter to that! And not the German tanks... They can't really protect themselves against rushing enemy inf units. While I almost never become in need for Inf support using the Armor doc. I lose all my Inf units step by step then I only stick on tanks purely as Armor doc... Can u do same as TH doc?! Absolutely no Axis doc is depending purely on tanks or it would be a big defeat.
We talked about that already through the topic 'Inspiring for perfection!', didn't we Hawks? Plz don't open closed subjects in a mean or in a try to convince Wolf while clearly whining for Allies this way.

-It's also pure BS to say that the Panther G is OP. This tank dies with 4 rockets if not less from the rear... And it's not hard to hit its rear anyways! ANY PANTHER DIES WITH ONE SHOT BY AMBUSHED HELLCATS 80% of the times.
Seemingly the Long Tom does never give a warn too btw!! Units never shout saying "incoming" for that.

-Arty balance; Well...
Wh Terror doc is often only about a single Stuka which is later available. Blitz doc is only about 1 or 2 Opels... Def doc is about the Grille. And huh; I laughed so much when u said before that the Def doc 280mm arty barrage is too strong!!! Never seen it being used anytime because it never kills anything. Even the V1 is rarely used!

US Inf doc is about such deadly 'click to kill' 2 kind off map arty barrages, 105mm howitzers combined with emplacements spam of AT guns and 107mm arty mortar emplacements.. cheap inf spam... And early powerful Jumbos! U can win whole games only due to that super aggressive early power. And at late game u can still construct a lof of defense just in seconds using ur Engineers while building massive defensive lines very quickly.. not to mention about the Sherman105 which is more likely going to have flaming shells as we said for 88s.

U still have arty as AB such as the 75mm howitzers too, Calliope Jeeps aren't bad as well... Lots of tightly equipped AB inf units.. covered by airplanes clearing out any enemy inf units and Hellcats ambushing every single Tiger.
I do realize that AB bombing airplanes do sometimes blindly miss somehow, yet u can get both ammo and fuel supply drops!

The Armor doc doesn't really need arty. Yet u have the Calliope.. hilarious off map arty by tank commanders and floods of cheap excellent tanks!

PE TH doc doesn't have any decent arty. Does it?

PE Luft arty is.. about planes! SD2s gonna be nerfed. U know...

PE SE doc is about freaky Wespes, Hummels and Mortar Bunkers that require 5 minutes to be finally built.

Normal Bunkers are gonna be restricted only to SE and Def docs. U know that again..

CW; should I speak about Brits arty???!!! Every doc has arty.. fking Priests, arty spotters call ins... 150ammo wide arty barrage similar to the sector arty one of SE doc, 107mm mortars similar to the 120mm mortars of PE... 75mm HTs, 95mm Churchills.. AVRE... Typhoons, freaky awesome 75 HE AT guns etc.......
17Ps being built in a blink of an eye.
Ever seen Axis building 75mm AT gun emplacements btw?!
Should I continue I wonder?! It's not worth to waste time here.


-My point here is that it doesn't seem to be a 'serious arty\defense dis-balance' like u claim! Specifically since that u know there are some tweaks gonna be made considering this through the next patch regarding SD2s etc... So why u repeat subjects of which have been closed already?!?!

Axis do enjoy camping more because they actually can't really rely on their tanks breaking Allies defense. Camping would be the only choice sometimes!


Plus that I can honestly see some awful contradiction here;
illa; weren't u saying that Allies are more flexible few days ago?! Now saying it's not????!!!!! Weird.

For me it's not harder to play as Allies, just u need to concentrate on more units... Once u do succeed this; Axis won't have a chance! As it might be even harder for Axis moving their lonely heavies anywhere.. they must be expecting every second any click to kill ability on their head at any time.. and then death comes suddenly from above... From the heavens.... U can never kill the source of this arty; so they are off map o.O

[Wolf]

I'd stop saying "gonna be" and "will be", as I never said that bunkers are going to be restricted to SE and Def doc. But I agree with "terrible scenarios". Only 3 units worth building? Thats one example of terrible ... misleading?

Part about not using units IF and IIIIIF you think you don't need them was especially about 76mm Sherman in Inf and AB docs. I mostly used 76mm AT guns if I went for 76mms on ind doc, because there was always a squad to recapture it if needed, but in Armor doc, they are certainly not useless. You also said that M36 is not worth the cost? I disagree, both versions seem very usable.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I'd stop saying "gonna be" and "will be", as I never said that bunkers are going to be restricted to SE and Def doc.

U yet didn't say, that's true! ^^ But u will... (Joking ) It's up to u of course.. but I believe it won't hurt about this one btw!

You also said that M36 is not worth the cost? I disagree, both versions seem very usable.

Ya I also disagree this... The Slugger is deadly when ambushed, much more than a Hellcat...

[JimQwilleran]

Ok guys, I just had a game.

-It's also pure BS to say that the Panther G is OP. This tank dies with 4 rockets if not less from the rear... And it's not hard to hit its rear anyways! ANY PANTHER DIES WITH ONE SHOT BY AMBUSHED HELLCATS 80% of the times.
Seemingly the Long Tom does never give a warn too btw!! Units never shout saying "incoming" for that.

I wanted to see if Panther G is or is not really op. I gave my enemy half of the map and had no other units except snipers. Then made a panther... and killed enemy. Just like that. I wasn't even hurring! I used walking stuka only 2 times, as my SE mate helped me with guns.

Pure bullshit is what you say Tiger. If you guys don't see a problem with what I show you here, then I could be talking with a wall as well...

[Krieger Blitzer]

From the first look, teams of this game are clearly unbalanced... Shadow seem to have been playing 1v2. This wasn't a pro gaming match!
Why are u uploading to me such a screen shot showing scores anyways?! It proves nothing.. I know how good or how bad u r! I mean I know how u play already!!!
Also, throughout my old posted replays on the matchmaking section.. u can find a lot of similar screenshots uploaded by me as whatever Allies or even Axis. So what?!

Should I be uploading a video including about 40 scenes collected only from 5 games showing how Panther Gs are actually cracked frontally using ambushed Hellcats with one shot?! Or killed instantly after 3 Zooka hits at the rear???!!! I don't think I should... I bet u know this happens. Even 76mm AT guns can soak almost all its health once they do penetrate!

Don't even start with it, Panther Gs are noway OP anyhow. And it can't have more cost at any possible point... So plz be more constructive!!

Yet u didn't answer my question.. few days ago u were saying allies are more flexible, what happened now?!

[JimQwilleran]

Omg dude, do you even comprehend!? It was not a balanced game! It was a test game for panthers! I posted a screen to make it more visible that I uploaded a game. Just omg. I feel really sorry for you.

[Krieger Blitzer]

A 3v3 whole pvp game just to test how OP are Panthers?! LOL... I don't even have to look at it.
This can't be called as a test, who tests that way???!!!

If u want to test.. go test it in a testing 1v1 game for example at Angoville's main road against each kind of an AT weapon several times.
But ur test is a funny test just like that

[JimQwilleran]

Ohh my gaaad. oh my gaad.. How stuupid you arree. I just can do anything right now beside crying... really... I have a overwhelming sensation of hopelessness... Just leave me in the corner so I could forget or whatever....

[Krieger Blitzer]

Quickly go for some sedative medication tablets and u will feel more comfortable as I would promise.. lolz!

[Warhawks97]

At first we just had a scenario again described by ila.

each team had one "newbie" (classic isnt that bad... he got bad points coz he only lost units against Panther G and Se arty). Enemie had inf, AB and RE doc and first we took the map (Terror, SE, BK) and then the enemie did for a very long time. But then.... me with BK and illa with terror we booth and just few units vs many AB´s and RE tanks, including the church ace and hidden hellcats and m10 (shadow outplayed me together with RE guy). But we could hold the line, ive got a tiger and staying defensively. My Tiger instantly oneshoted (no AP rounds) the church ace supported by command tank and an M10 wolverine. The enemie used 105 off map from inf taking 50% of tiger. The ace bounced, got killed. M10 drove close, destroyed my engine, got killed by my Tiger which got vet 1. A Bombing run got shot down by base def and Ostwind. The blobb of 3 101st AB with vet and several rl´s, 1 82nd and 101st HQ which tried to finally kill my tiger ran into my ambush of leader storm squad and assault squad with stgs and ostwind. All AB´s died if i am correct, Tiger still alive and killed with his mgs also few AB ranger.

At the other side of the map inf doc took map, having 2 pak emplacment, vet rangers and 107 mortar. Still illa made breakthrough with continous production of Panther G´s, one after the other. It was a funy picture sometimes to see the single Panther G rushing into enemie lines surrounded by AT squads half dead, and Achilles. few Panther G´s died but one came after the other and when one survived his assault he was veted. I on my side just had to get vet 2 with my Tiger+ Ostwind and nothing could do anything. Attempts of AB rushes and tank busters attacking my Tiger failed and i just need two units. My SE mate later got two snipers and Nashorn which made any attempt to attack our tanks suicide. And i didnt even need stuhs although i could have again against RE. Their 95 mm arty and calli was pointless so far. And you Pointed it out correctly Tiger: From ambush they are effective. though Our Panthers and tigers survived few of these ambushes. My Tiger eat two 17 pdr shots from M10 achilles and still alive. But thats also the prob. Arty got more or less reduced to CW arty doc. But tell me pls how to attack a combo of Tiger+ Ostwind with Nashorn behind without proper arty support? You would have to waste a huge part of the army risking to kill nothing and feeding just the tanks.


I dont really get. You said yourself you never play larger teamfights or only rarley. the few you did had been either boring or playing with and against some low skilled players. But you never stayed in a lobby when the good players had all been there. I think 1 vs 1 and 2 vs 2 is quite balanced. There are more certain docs weak. RA doc in 2 vs 2 is for example pure bs and nobody uses it. In 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 its the most important one on allied side. In the past month i played teamfighst against allied i cant remember when allied won a game without cw arty. Even when they got a nice start they failed on very long term. Simply like it was today. i admitt we had SE but still.

and TH doc needs support? its just a bit harder thats all. Apparently you didnt read. US armor doc needs support by others when enemie is defensive. And when you dont get your enemie into fight the only chance to get CP´s to unlock calli and commander off map is to OP points and to waste your own units more or less. But in return all your teammates rely on your HE shermans sandbagged to keep away enemie inf. Th doc is a bit tricky. But as i said he just had to put the two IV70 on the first line, repair it with bergetiger and then just one squad of grens behind to kill all zooks trying to kill them. And for his own breakhtrough he got 6 hotchkiss which firepower can then be impressive.


and the frontal ruhs thing: He shermans and stuff is good till mid game and can prevent it. But later when map is full with crater and grens/storms vet 3-5 then HE rounds do kill a few men but those will still always make their schreck shots.


and to our last game: Illa had only one territory in front of his base, then panther G´s and after a while he was in front of US base leaving some uncrewed emplacments and wrecks of allied tanks behind. Illa is using Panther G Hyperagressive and its funny.... we have like the half of the map and the panther G, even when damaged, is staying in in the enemie base being vet 2 and 1/3 HP remaining. And when one G dies the next comes fast. Thats possible in 3 vs 3 because there the guy spamming Panther G´s has often nothing else but AT squad and one gren squad or so. So the army is small, the income 300+ mp per min and so he can build and send one G after the other running into the lines untill those crack. And when G wasnt successfull its not so bad. The enemie is confused and teammates provide some back up to the G spammer and before the enemie team made plans for their next step they often get surprised by the next G just when they wanted to start their own assault. This will stuck in the little axis defense and new Panther which then strikes instantly with an counterattack hunting the enemie till base.


and last time my jacks ambushed a tiger booth died. I made first shot damaging his engine. He was turning into my direction (i got him from the side) and then booth shot at the same time killing each other. I rarely use jacks as offensive unit and only when there is a very good chance when enemie tank is busy. But in general it requires veeery carefull handling when trying to kill an axis big cat. the B can take on a group of tank IV´s using stat mode and range boost but A is better vs bigger tanks due to ambush. Catching a heavy tank with B is rather hard as those wont drive simply into it. But sooner or later a schreck attack is being launched screwing jacks.


i dont consider the G specifically OP. It was a monster and US called this "Panther crisis". Just i wonder how people do imagine how to attack with allied. They always say "ambush kills this, or this or this". But this ALWAYS presumes axis is the attacker. So Axis have endless time to decide when to attack. Thats how last game was. So when a Panther G is killed in ambush by one unit.... then you should compare to how many allied units of all cost do die against a single ambushed axis unit. The Allied are in defensive ambushes as good as axis in offense, and axis in ambushes are god like. And exactly this makes me every game thinking why axis have in general more arty and in long games the SE as the absolut Arty Monster. CW has more early arty, SE god like late game. But why is it that way? when axis have already an offensive power that is as strong as well prepared allied ambush power and axis ambush power nearly god like why allis are more restricted in arty..... its what makes me thinking endless times. Click to kill abilities are common on booth sides, no reason to point explicit on inf doc, they jst unlock as first.

[Krieger Blitzer]

It's not a problem when to lose a Panther G through these big team-fights cause u would easily replace it.. surely also it's not a problem when to lose maybe 3 Hellcats as well on the other hand as u will be then also able to replace them too, am I wrong?!

Not each team got a noob, don't lie plz as ur team had only 1 noob... While Shadow was obviously alone there.

Are u now trying to tell me Tigers are OP too???!!!

Are u OK dear mate?!
Simply
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
CRAAAAAAAAP.

Gn8!

[JimQwilleran]

and to our last game: Illa had only one territory in front of his base, then panther G´s and after a while he was in front of US base leaving some uncrewed emplacments and wrecks of allied tanks behind. Illa is using Panther G Hyperagressive and its funny.... we have like the half of the map and the panther G, even when damaged, is staying in in the enemie base being vet 2 and 1/3 HP remaining. And when one G dies the next comes fast. Thats possible in 3 vs 3 because there the guy spamming Panther G´s has often nothing else but AT squad and one gren squad or so. So the army is small, the income 300+ mp per min and so he can build and send one G after the other running into the lines untill those crack. And when G wasnt successfull its not so bad. The enemie is confused and teammates provide some back up to the G spammer and before the enemie team made plans for their next step they often get surprised by the next G just when they wanted to start their own assault. This will stuck in the little axis defense and new Panther which then strikes instantly with an counterattack hunting the enemie till base.

That is the thing!

Just i wonder how people do imagine how to attack with allied. They always say "ambush kills this, or this or this". But this ALWYAYS presumes axis is the attacker. So Axis have endless time to decide when to attack. Thats how last game was. So when a Panther G is killed in ambush by one unit.... then you should compare how many allied units of all cost do die against a single ambushed axis unit. The Allied are in defensive ambushes as good as allis in offense, and axis in ambushes are god like. And exactly this makes me every game thinking why axis have in general more arty and in long games the SE is the absolut Arty Monster.

WHY DON'T YOU LISTEN TO HIM!? GUYS!? HAWKS LIKE NO ONE ELSE CAN TELL YOU THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS!

I dont really get. You said yourself you never play larger teamfights or only rarley. the few you did had been either boring or playing with and against some low skilled players. But you never stayed in a lobby when the good players had all been there.

~touche

[Warhawks97]

It's not a problem when to lose a Panther G through these big team-fights cause u would easily replace it.. surely also it's not a problem when to lose maybe 3 Hellcats as well on the other hand as u will be then also able to replace them too, am I wrong?!

Not each team got a noob, don't lie plz as ur team had only 1 noob... While Shadow was obviously alone there.

Are u now trying to tell me Tigers are OP too???!!!

Are u OK dear mate?!
Simply
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
CRAAAAAAAAP.

Gn8!

No Tiger is OK. I didnt say its OP. Just when there is a Tiger+ Ostwind (and maybe 50 mm pak behind) then alli offense would end in massive losses (4 tanks average and inf). Its btw that what you show in your final stand vids. Costly massively quanity superior attacks on tigers can be made only when having more than 50% (or 70%) of an average teamfight map. Thats why general saying is "Allis need to get more than 50% of the map within the first 15-25 mins". If they dont succeed its likely that allis will lose. esspecoally when allied get no coordinated attack going. Then you can actually leave the game and ask for rematch.



Yes, you can get 3 Hellcats.... but they still cant attack. Panther can, even when being killed, it usually makes damage and causes disorder in enemie lines. 3 Hellcats alone would die in offense by 20 mm guns, 37 mm paks..... by just everything. Thats the little difference. The Axis can more or less decide when to attack later in game when no arty keeps pressing them to attack (which again only cw arty doc can do so far). Allis most of the time can then just prepare as good as possible. But without CW arty no allied doc makes a step forward by its own while axis can wait and wait untill they have enough heavy tanks and billions of rocket launchers to smash just everything in one single big assault. And even if it takes hours to get all these units... they have the time coz once front is stable nothing can push them to an attack unless enemie uses CW arty (which also can get countered by Hummel. Then axis have all time of the world).