I decided make an experiment to check all those many times discussed things like Tiger vs bazookas, vs 76 at gun; Jumbo armor etc. If you are interested keep scrolling, it's going to be a long post. (not my fault, no spoilers option...)
First of all I will say that I did that for fun. I don't suppose that this will be a proof for anything. The content of this post represents penetration mechanisms of Men of War Assault Squad 2, which in my opinion has a very reliable engine, and what is shown there might be the reflection of real penetration, armor values etc.
Table of contents
- 0. General information
1. Tiger vs all kinds of AT weapon
2. Panther
3. King Tiger
4. Panzer IV H
5. Jumbo
6. Pershing
7. Super Pershing
8. Churchill Croc
9. BONUS Hellcat vs German tanks
10. BONUS Comet vs German tanks
11. BONUS Super Pershing vs German tanks
12. My conclusions
General information
Each of the tested tanks was under the same conditions.
All AT gun test has been done at 4 distances:
- "100 in-game units of distance", which equals 1500 yards/1,4 km in real life as I checked)
- "75 units" - 1000 yards/ 900 meters
- "60 units" - 500 yards/ 450 meters
- "20 units" - for full penetration power of guns
(Those values were calibrated based on this table of US 76mm armor penetration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-inch_Gun_M5#Ammunition)
There were 3 shots fired from each distance with normal AP rounds and 3 shots with special AP rounds (APCR/HVAP/APDS)
Handheld AT weapon tests has been performed in the following way: 1 rocket was fired at each side of the tank. Destroyed tracks doesn't count as penetration.
Weapon used for the test:
US - M1A1 Bazooka with M6A1 rockets
Germany - Panzershreck
Commonwealth - The Projector, Infantry, Anti Tank (PIAT)
The key: x = penetrated; o = no penetration
(Also note that all shots were meant to kill. That means that if I was shooting a tiger, I was aiming for the flat area of armor, not the slopped area. The same with jumbo, I was aiming at the weak spot at the bottom of the frontal armor)
1. Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger E vs AT
- US M5 76 mm AT gun
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: x o x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
- Ordnance Quick-Firing 17-pounder
Normal:
1400 m: x x o
900 m: x o x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
- 6-pounder/M1 57 mm AT gun
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: x x x (!)
closest: x x x
- M1A1 Bazooka with M6A1 rockets
Front: x
Sides: x x
Rear: x
- PIAT
Front: x (!)
Sides: x x
Rear: x
2. Panzerkampfwagen V Panther G vs AT
- US M5 76 mm AT gun
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: x x x (only turret penetrated)
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: x o o (only turret)
450 m: x x x (only turret)
closest: x x x
( I have reached the limit of 10 attachments so, sorry no more photos, there would be too much work with uploading it)
- Ordnance Quick-Firing 17-pounder
Normal:
1400 m: o x o (turret)
900 m: x x x (turret)
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o x o (turret)
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
- 6-pounder/M1 57 mm AT gun
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x x x (turret only)
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o x o (turret)
closest: x x x (also the hull)
- M1A1 Bazooka with M6A1 rockets
Front: o
Sides: o x (skirts)
Rear: x
- PIAT
Front: o
Sides: o x (skirts)
Rear: x
3. Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf. B "Königstiger" vs AT
- US M5 76 mm AT gun
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o (no scratch)
- Ordnance Quick-Firing 17-pounder
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o x x (turret only)
- M1A1 Bazooka with M6A1 rockets
Front: o
Sides: x x
Rear: x
- PIAT
Front: o
Sides: x x
Rear: x
4. Panzerkampfwagen IV H
- US M5 76 mm AT gun
Normal:
1400 m: x o o
900 m: x x x (!)
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x (!)
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
- Ordnance Quick-Firing 17-pounder
Normal:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
- 6-pounder/M1 57 mm AT gun
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: x x x (!)
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
- M1A1 Bazooka with M6A1 rockets
Front: x
Sides: x x
Rear: x
- PIAT
Front: x
Sides: x x
Rear: x
5. M4A3E2 Sherman Jumbo 76
- PAK 38 (50mm)
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x o x
- PAK 40 (75mm similar for stugs, jagdtpanzers, panzer IV F and up)
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o x
450 m: o o x
closest: x x x
- FLAK 37 (Stationary 88mm, similar to Tigers gun)
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
- PAK 43 (88mm kwk 43)
Normal:
1400 m: x x x (wow)
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
- Panzershreck
Front: x
Sides: x x
Rear: x
6. M26 "Pershing"
- PAK 38 (50mm)
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
- PAK 40 (75mm)
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o x (turret only)
closest: x x x (turret only)
- FLAK 37 (Stationary 88mm)
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
- PAK 43 (88mm kwk 43)
Normal:
1400 m: x x x (again)
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
- Panzershreck
Front: x
Sides: x x
Rear: x
7. T26E4-1 Super Pershing"
- PAK 40 (75mm)
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x x x (turret only)
- FLAK 37 (Stationary 88mm)
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: x o x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
- PAK 43 (88mm kwk 43)
Normal:
1400 m: x x x (again)
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
- Panzershreck
Front: x
Sides: x x
Rear: x
8. Churchill Mark VII Crocodile
- PAK 40 (75mm)
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x x x (turret only)
- FLAK 37 (Stationary 88mm)
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: x o o
closest: x x x
- PAK 43 (88mm kwk 43)
Normal:
1400 m: x o x (!)
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
- Panzershreck
Front: x
Sides: x x
Rear: x
9. BONUS Hellcat vs German tanks
- Ferdinand
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
- Jagdtiger
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
- King Tiger
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
- Tiger
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: x o o
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
- Sturmtiger
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
- Panther
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o x x (turret only)
closest: x x x
10. BONUS Comet vs German tanks
- Ferdinand
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
- Jagdtiger
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
- King Tiger
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x o x (turret only)
- Tiger
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
- Sturmtiger
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x x x
- Panther
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: x x x (turret only)
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o x (turret only)
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
11.BONUS Super Pershing vs German tanks
- Ferdinand
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x o o
- Jagdtiger
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
- King Tiger
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x x x
- Tiger
Normal:
1400 m: x x x (poor ace burning alive)
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
- Sturmtiger
Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
- Panther
Normal:
1400 m: x x x (ouch)
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
My conclusions
According to my results, in our mod:
- 1. Panzershreck should never bounce off from anything,
2. Stationary 88 is insanely overpowered at long distance, should have problems with jumbos, pershings and churchills
3. 76 mm US AT gun is horribly underpowered, it should be very reliable
4. 6p/57mm AT gun is underpowered ( also needs 2 shots to kill PE scout car), should be able to kill every kind of panzer IV, with special ammo it kills tigers from close range.
5. 88 kwk 43 shots (PAK 43, Jagdpanther, Ferdinand, KT, Nashorn) should never bounce, except Crock on long range rarely,
6. Tiger's armor is unrealistically thick,
7. The same with Panzer IV, which should be killed easily by 6p and has no right to bounce frontal bazooka, also has no chance to penetrate Jumbo from longer distances, even with special ammo.
8. PAK 40 is overpowered on very long range,
9. PIAT (was really inaccurate as I read) but in terms of damage is very underpowered, it should 1-hit at least panzers.
10. SP should be 1-shooting tigers and panthers like there was no tomorrow. BUT, it can't really penetrate KT from any distance beside "close", not to mention Ferdinand and Jagdtiger.
11. KT frontal armor should be practically invincible. EDIT: According to what Tor said later, I checked that Hellcat with APCR IS ABLE to penetrate KT frontally.
It took me 5 hours to make this post, so please don't hate me too much. I hope that somebody will say something, hopefully nice, about this. I will repeat that this is not a "CHANGE THAT!!!!" post. I just wanted to check how things work in the other of the two best WW2 RTS games. In my opinion the best guarantee of the balance in the game is keeping it as much realistic as we can...
Now, good night...