The great experiment

[JimQwilleran]

You banned in google? There are many sources and they have differences but also differences in War Thunder and MoW much stronger than usual.
Different countries have different calculate mechanics, And there is no overall 100% correct numbers.
Stop Using games like wiki, they always some balance shit.

Ok then. Just point me where I am wrong. I admitted that Hellcat with APCR has over 200 mm of penetration. Anything else?

[Krieger Blitzer]

What is usual KT destruction cause ? Planes ? be imo then shoot from rear, others ?

What I try to know is : when super heavies are fielded, did it happen rarely or often, dying cause is a frontal penetration that would hardly happen with gun/ammo available by allies in western theater ?

Rarely sometimes full HP ones are dying just with single hits from 17Ps frontally!!! But most of times it's because of immobilization by arty or Typhoons usually...

[Tor]

You banned in google? There are many sources and they have differences but also differences in War Thunder and MoW much stronger than usual.
Different countries have different calculate mechanics, And there is no overall 100% correct numbers.
Stop Using games like wiki, they always some balance shit.

Ok then. Just point me where I am wrong. I admitted that Hellcat with APCR has over 200 mm of penetration. Anything else?

I am not professor but 238mm at 100 metres to much for 76mm WWII gun, you dont think so? at 0 this gun have 270? realy? M4A3E8 unstoppable T-54 and JS-3 killer

[Tor]

What is usual KT destruction cause ? Planes ? be imo then shoot from rear, others ?

What I try to know is : when super heavies are fielded, did it happen rarely or often, dying cause is a frontal penetration that would hardly happen with gun/ammo available by allies in western theater ?

Rarely sometimes full HP ones are dying just with single hits from 17Ps frontally!!! But most of times it's because of immobilization by arty or Typhoons usually...

Yeah i lose my 100% HP KT after Typhoons, why KT have 1200HP like tiger in BK doc, and SP have 1300HP?? mb KT need more HP?

[Krieger Blitzer]

What is usual KT destruction cause ? Planes ? be imo then shoot from rear, others ?

What I try to know is : when super heavies are fielded, did it happen rarely or often, dying cause is a frontal penetration that would hardly happen with gun/ammo available by allies in western theater ?

Rarely sometimes full HP ones are dying just with single hits from 17Ps frontally!!! But most of times it's because of immobilization by arty or Typhoons usually...

Yeah i lose my 100% HP KT after Typhoons, why KT have 1200HP like tiger in BK doc, and SP have 1300HP??

What??!! Who told u this?!

[Tor]

I found this in BK mod resource.
And Why Pz-4j have more HP than Pz-4h?

[JimQwilleran]

I am not professor but 238mm at 100 metres to much for 76mm WWII gun, you dont think so?

I still don't get what is your problem. First you say to use proper sources, but you don't provide any of them.

you dont think so? at 0 this gun have 270?

Stop inventing new guns.

M4A3E8 unstoppable

The gun of hellcat and 76 mm gun of shermans ARE NOT THE SAME GUNS!!

Yeah i lose my 100% HP KT after Typhoons, why KT have 1200HP like tiger in BK doc, and SP have 1300HP??

How did you find those values?!

I feel like I am starting to waste my time with you...

[Krieger Blitzer]

I found this in BK mod resource.
And Why Pz-4j have more HP than Pz-4h?

What is the Bk mod resource?! U mean u checked the game files??!!

[Tor]

I am not professor but 238mm at 100 metres to much for 76mm WWII gun, you dont think so?

I still don't get what is your problem. First you say to use proper sources, but you don't provide any of them.

you dont think so? at 0 this gun have 270?

Stop inventing new guns.

M4A3E8 unstoppable

The gun of hellcat and 76 mm gun of shermans ARE NOT THE SAME GUNS!!

Yeah i lose my 100% HP KT after Typhoons, why KT have 1200HP like tiger in BK doc, and SP have 1300HP??

How did you find those values?!

I feel like I am starting to waste my time with you...

And what are the differences between the gun from the gun helcat and Sherman?
And proper source? most stupidly source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/76_mm_gun_M1 )) at 0 this gun maybe have 180, nothing about 240.

[Tor]

I found this in BK mod resource.
And Why Pz-4j have more HP than Pz-4h?

What is the Bk mod resource?! U mean u checked the game files??!!

Yes O_o Corsix mod studio name of this.
But understand data it is difficult.
Tiger ACE have 1100, early 1000, late 1100, KT 1200? KT test i dont know its in game KT or somethink different, SP 1300HP.
Pz-4h 636, Pz-4j 650, All panther 800.
M4A3 636, M4A3E8 682, Pershing ACE 1200, Pershing 1000, Jumbo 76 750hp.
I found in res for axis 13 tiger 1, i dont know what used in game.

[Jalis]

Roughly Super heavy have about smae HP. It start from 1200 for elefant and JT, 1250 for KT (like tiger ace), 1300 for SP.

I dont think there is damage modifier, except perhaps due to XP (tiger ace) or Tank commander. I dont remember original bk modifier for xp and Tank commander.

KT frontal "weakness" seems to be the turret 180 to 185 + mm. 17 pdr in theory can pen it at 500 meters. main frontral plate is an other matter.

What I suspected is flamming is coming for things that rarely or never happen in game, super heavy dying from frontal pen by a hellcat for exemple. Point I know my subject, it s a long time I m a veteran in useless quarrels.

[Warhawks97]

What is usual KT destruction cause ? Planes ? be imo then shoot from rear, others ?

What I try to know is : when super heavies are fielded, did it happen rarely or often, dying cause is a frontal penetration that would hardly happen with gun/ammo available by allies in western theater ?

KT isnt rare but experienced players use Panther G, KT is killed by a mix of arty, sticky, gammon bombs etc. Nobody attacks a KT with a tank unless having a 5:1 ratio (jacks, 17 pdr tanks etc). I´ve uploaded one game showing KT killing e8, HE sherman, 2 firefly, achilles and almost Jacks which survived a shot and thus two shoted the damaged KT with two shots.

Only in actually already won games where KT is isolated players to overrun KT with masses of tanks. A Jacks never attacks a KT alone as the jacks is not seldomly killed before able to make a shot.

Elephant is more rare as KT but not rare at all. Some players def heavily untill elephant comes. Elephant is muchc better as JT bc the rof is much higher by oneshoting pretty much every enemie tank just like the 128 mm JT canon does. The Traverse speed of elephant is crazy fast which makes flanking almost impossible in normal pvp moments. I once used 6 e8, jacks and jumbo against elephant that defended the enemie base alone and ive spread my shermans attacking from all directions but still 3 e8 died before they reached any flank position and some rear shots bounced (probably count as front hits). 4 pen shots needed then to destroy that elephant by 76 and 90 mm guns.

The JT is very rare.... nobody builds a JT as long as he has fuel to build JP´s or Jagdpanzer IV/70 which in my opinion are harder to kill (ambush, faster, higher rof). The JT usually dies against arty/aiplanes and inf but also rarely against tanks (only when again completely isolated from inf with schreck against a huge number of enemie tanks. The Sticky proved very effective against elephant and JT but less effective against KT (from my experience) though sometimes 6 sticky cant do any crit to elephant or JT (125 ammo wasted). in my last 2 games against Elephants they got first immobilized by sticky, then damaged by arty or planes and then even destroyed by sticky having just like 1 HP or so remaining:P

[Jalis]

Thanks for explainations.
summary, useless to start quarrel about super heavies frontal armour. It could only be important for solo players, who are not BK target, like most major mods I think (perhaps if we excepts nch that seems nor more planned to be updated).

Point sticky bombs vs At grenade would have make a bloody evil bunny.

Afaik I rarely had to nerf allies, except perhaps wolverine and hellcat ROF.

To more or less come back to the subject, solo players usually like JT elefant and ace tiger, especially on normal and poor maps because call in need no fuel.

People can argue against mow, but fact is Jim's conclusions applied from it at bk are mostly accurate.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I almost never use JT/Elefant or KT. The reasons are simple:
1) By the time you get them alies have covered tankbusters and pounders behind every corner. Or hign veted priest.
2) Commando will run and through Gammon bomb which will immobolize vehicle for sure, then rain of arty and airstrikes coming, so youd better dont even try to repair it, cause no chance.
3) For Kt and elefant Typhoon rocket run is pure death, due to their slow speed they have almost no chance to dodge it.
4) Its simply more effective to invest res in different units, for price of KT ( 1740 mp 125 ammo 210 fuel) you can build Panther G + Stuka + Grens, that will spread your investment so you ll not loose all at once. KT is actually is a big present for alies in material war, 1 gammon bomb for 50 ammo and whole this bunch of res is gone.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I found this in BK mod resource.
And Why Pz-4j have more HP than Pz-4h?

What is the Bk mod resource?! U mean u checked the game files??!!

Yes O_o Corsix mod studio name of this.
But understand data it is difficult.
Tiger ACE have 1100, early 1000, late 1100, KT 1200? KT test i dont know its in game KT or somethink different, SP 1300HP.
Pz-4h 636, Pz-4j 650, All panther 800.
M4A3 636, M4A3E8 682, Pershing ACE 1200, Pershing 1000, Jumbo 76 750hp.
I found in res for axis 13 tiger 1, i dont know what used in game.

Yes Tor, u r right ^^ Hahahaha
But well, I guess I know why u don't know about the exact KT values although that u already are knowing about the remaining others! It's because the KT files information are not on the supposed faction actually for some reasons... Both the real actual Henschel and Porsche KTs are found on the PE faction list and not the WH list 'I think' and also they are having 1200 and 1250 "hitpoints" if not mistaken like Jalis mentioned and as I just personally checked it by myself too Whatever!

mm.. I am not sure if it's possible for KTs to receive more HP to be honest.
It's a lot much more complicated than u think and so I guess I 'as well' have no logic answers for u currently!

Ehm, I would probably leave the mic now to MarKr or Wolf to explain it if they don't mind!!!
Guys; this man is asking why KTs are having low HP or almost as same as Tigers, can u plz answer us upon this?! ^_^ Or are there anything wrong maybe with the provided values down here?!

[Wolf]

HP does not matter, when you have different penetration values.
You could have like 5 HP on a tank, but if it would not be penetrated, then... again, why does that matter?
Or well, what exactly you want it to be and why? Current way its set - smaller calibers will have lower percentage of hp taken from it, bigger more. Seems pretty fine.

If we want to keep somewhat 2-3 shot PENETRATING kills, we cant give you 5131351 hp. Or well, we can, but then we would have to increase damage multiplier, so why?

If there is almost the same unit with different HP, it usually means that there were some fine tuning based on god knows what, maybe some upgrades increase it, like sandbags, maybe it has different features, like skirts. Just don't focus purely on some value, thats exactly why all there requests for exact values are misleading and totally useless in the end.

[JimQwilleran]

again, why does that matter?

I don't know why they stared talking about that. It seems like there is no way that people could stick to the topic. They always start talking about other things and the thread dies meanwhile...

[Krieger Blitzer]

Exactly!!!

[Der Major]

6. Tiger's armor is unrealistically thick,

would it be possible that this shall simulate "MAhlzeitstellung"? (Anybody who has any knowledge about the Tiger knows what i'm talking about) Since ingame we can't actually angle the tank and that was it's most effective positioning, that the german tankers were advised (and teached in the Tiger Fibel) to take

9. PIAT (was really inaccurate as I read) but in terms of damage is very underpowered, it should 1-hit at least panzers.

aha... PAnzer is the generic german Term for tank.. so it should one hit all tanks?

[JimQwilleran]

aha... PAnzer is the generic german Term for tank.. so it should one hit all tanks?

I know German enough to know ;D. When I mean "panzer" I mean all variants of panzer IV .

[Der Major]

aha... PAnzer is the generic german Term for tank.. so it should one hit all tanks?

I know German enough to know ;D. When I mean "panzer" I mean all variants of panzer IV .

nice for you.. it'd be like i say "The M" when i'm reffering to the Sherman actually... because ya know... not many US Tanks had a M in front... really with all due respect... it's imho nearly as strange and wrong as, yes i have encoutnered that, thinking that "Panzer" was the name of the Panther...

[Krieger Blitzer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAZ2U9fMrgA

Yes, but actually u can keep rotating ur own tank here too in Bk mod manually! Like I always do all of the times.. if u even check my playing style anytime with tanks generally... I do usually concentrate much on turning my tank right and left like that same way

[MarKr]

I wonder - what is the purpose of comparing BK mod to MoW? I mean both are games not super-realistic simulators. MoW creators might have managed to achieve some higher level of authenticity but I highly doubt that their work in 100% reflects the reality so even if you get some results from MoW and even IF we changed all that stuff to match the MoW we wouldn't get more realistic BK, we would simply get more MoW-like BK .

Of course you can run your tests and everything if you like but I guess that the results have little value as an argument for balancing BK.

[Der Major]

Yes, but actually u can keep rotating ur own tank here too in Bk mod manually! Like I always do all of the times.. if u even check my playing style anytime with tanks generally... I do usually concentrate much on turning my tank right and left like that same way

of course you can do that.. but it has no effect afaik...

[Devilfish]

Der Major are you some kind of troll or what?