The great experiment

[JimQwilleran]

Hello!
I decided make an experiment to check all those many times discussed things like Tiger vs bazookas, vs 76 at gun; Jumbo armor etc. If you are interested keep scrolling, it's going to be a long post. (not my fault, no spoilers option...)

First of all I will say that I did that for fun. I don't suppose that this will be a proof for anything. The content of this post represents penetration mechanisms of Men of War Assault Squad 2, which in my opinion has a very reliable engine, and what is shown there might be the reflection of real penetration, armor values etc.

Table of contents

0. General information
1. Tiger vs all kinds of AT weapon
2. Panther
3. King Tiger
4. Panzer IV H
5. Jumbo
6. Pershing
7. Super Pershing
8. Churchill Croc
9. BONUS Hellcat vs German tanks
10. BONUS Comet vs German tanks
11. BONUS Super Pershing vs German tanks
12. My conclusions

General information
Each of the tested tanks was under the same conditions.

All AT gun test has been done at 4 distances:
- "100 in-game units of distance", which equals 1500 yards/1,4 km in real life as I checked)
- "75 units" - 1000 yards/ 900 meters
- "60 units" - 500 yards/ 450 meters
- "20 units" - for full penetration power of guns
(Those values were calibrated based on this table of US 76mm armor penetration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-inch_Gun_M5#Ammunition)

There were 3 shots fired from each distance with normal AP rounds and 3 shots with special AP rounds (APCR/HVAP/APDS)

Handheld AT weapon tests has been performed in the following way: 1 rocket was fired at each side of the tank. Destroyed tracks doesn't count as penetration.
Weapon used for the test:
US - M1A1 Bazooka with M6A1 rockets
Germany - Panzershreck
Commonwealth - The Projector, Infantry, Anti Tank (PIAT)

The key: x = penetrated; o = no penetration

(Also note that all shots were meant to kill. That means that if I was shooting a tiger, I was aiming for the flat area of armor, not the slopped area. The same with jumbo, I was aiming at the weak spot at the bottom of the frontal armor)

1. Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger E vs AT

US M5 76 mm AT gun

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: x o x
closest: x x x

Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

Ordnance Quick-Firing 17-pounder

Normal:
1400 m: x x o
900 m: x o x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

6-pounder/M1 57 mm AT gun

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: x x x (!)
closest: x x x

M1A1 Bazooka with M6A1 rockets

Front: x
Sides: x x
Rear: x

PIAT

Front: x (!)
Sides: x x
Rear: x


2. Panzerkampfwagen V Panther G vs AT

US M5 76 mm AT gun

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: x x x (only turret penetrated)
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: x o o (only turret)
450 m: x x x (only turret)
closest: x x x

( I have reached the limit of 10 attachments so, sorry no more photos, there would be too much work with uploading it)

Ordnance Quick-Firing 17-pounder

Normal:
1400 m: o x o (turret)
900 m: x x x (turret)
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o x o (turret)
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

6-pounder/M1 57 mm AT gun

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x x x (turret only)
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o x o (turret)
closest: x x x (also the hull)

M1A1 Bazooka with M6A1 rockets

Front: o
Sides: o x (skirts)
Rear: x

PIAT

Front: o
Sides: o x (skirts)
Rear: x

3. Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf. B "Königstiger" vs AT

US M5 76 mm AT gun

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o (no scratch)

Ordnance Quick-Firing 17-pounder

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o x x (turret only)

M1A1 Bazooka with M6A1 rockets

Front: o
Sides: x x
Rear: x

PIAT

Front: o
Sides: x x
Rear: x

4. Panzerkampfwagen IV H

US M5 76 mm AT gun

Normal:
1400 m: x o o
900 m: x x x (!)
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x (!)
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

Ordnance Quick-Firing 17-pounder

Normal:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

6-pounder/M1 57 mm AT gun

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: x x x (!)
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

M1A1 Bazooka with M6A1 rockets

Front: x
Sides: x x
Rear: x

PIAT

Front: x
Sides: x x
Rear: x

5. M4A3E2 Sherman Jumbo 76

PAK 38 (50mm)

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x o x

PAK 40 (75mm similar for stugs, jagdtpanzers, panzer IV F and up)

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o x
450 m: o o x
closest: x x x

FLAK 37 (Stationary 88mm, similar to Tigers gun)

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

PAK 43 (88mm kwk 43)

Normal:
1400 m: x x x (wow)
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

Panzershreck

Front: x
Sides: x x
Rear: x

6. M26 "Pershing"

PAK 38 (50mm)

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o

PAK 40 (75mm)

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o x (turret only)
closest: x x x (turret only)

FLAK 37 (Stationary 88mm)

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

PAK 43 (88mm kwk 43)

Normal:
1400 m: x x x (again)
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

Panzershreck

Front: x
Sides: x x
Rear: x

7. T26E4-1 Super Pershing"

PAK 40 (75mm)

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x x x (turret only)

FLAK 37 (Stationary 88mm)

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: x o x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

PAK 43 (88mm kwk 43)

Normal:
1400 m: x x x (again)
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

Panzershreck

Front: x
Sides: x x
Rear: x

8. Churchill Mark VII Crocodile

PAK 40 (75mm)

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x x x (turret only)

FLAK 37 (Stationary 88mm)

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: x o o
closest: x x x

PAK 43 (88mm kwk 43)

Normal:
1400 m: x o x (!)
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

Panzershreck

Front: x
Sides: x x
Rear: x

9. BONUS Hellcat vs German tanks

Ferdinand

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o

Jagdtiger

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o

King Tiger

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o

Tiger

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: x o o
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

Sturmtiger

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o

Panther

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o x x (turret only)
closest: x x x

10. BONUS Comet vs German tanks

Ferdinand

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o

Jagdtiger

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o

King Tiger

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x o x (turret only)

Tiger

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

Sturmtiger

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o x
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x x x

Panther

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: x x x (turret only)
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: o o x (turret only)
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

11.BONUS Super Pershing vs German tanks

Ferdinand

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x o o

Jagdtiger

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o

King Tiger

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: x x x

Tiger

Normal:
1400 m: x x x (poor ace burning alive)
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

Sturmtiger

Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

Panther

Normal:
1400 m: x x x (ouch)
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x
Special:
1400 m: x x x
900 m: x x x
450 m: x x x
closest: x x x

My conclusions

According to my results, in our mod:

1. Panzershreck should never bounce off from anything,
2. Stationary 88 is insanely overpowered at long distance, should have problems with jumbos, pershings and churchills
3. 76 mm US AT gun is horribly underpowered, it should be very reliable
4. 6p/57mm AT gun is underpowered ( also needs 2 shots to kill PE scout car), should be able to kill every kind of panzer IV, with special ammo it kills tigers from close range.
5. 88 kwk 43 shots (PAK 43, Jagdpanther, Ferdinand, KT, Nashorn) should never bounce, except Crock on long range rarely,
6. Tiger's armor is unrealistically thick,
7. The same with Panzer IV, which should be killed easily by 6p and has no right to bounce frontal bazooka, also has no chance to penetrate Jumbo from longer distances, even with special ammo.
8. PAK 40 is overpowered on very long range,
9. PIAT (was really inaccurate as I read) but in terms of damage is very underpowered, it should 1-hit at least panzers.
10. SP should be 1-shooting tigers and panthers like there was no tomorrow. BUT, it can't really penetrate KT from any distance beside "close", not to mention Ferdinand and Jagdtiger.
11. KT frontal armor should be practically invincible. EDIT: According to what Tor said later, I checked that Hellcat with APCR IS ABLE to penetrate KT frontally.

It took me 5 hours to make this post, so please don't hate me too much. I hope that somebody will say something, hopefully nice, about this. I will repeat that this is not a "CHANGE THAT!!!!" post. I just wanted to check how things work in the other of the two best WW2 RTS games. In my opinion the best guarantee of the balance in the game is keeping it as much realistic as we can...
Now, good night...

[Tor]

Hello!

1. Panzershreck should never bounce off from anything,
2. Stationary 88 is insanely overpowered at long distance, should have problems with jumbos, pershings and churchills
3. 76 mm US AT gun is horribly underpowered, it should be very reliable
4. 6p/57mm AT gun is underpowered ( also needs 2 shots to kill PE scout car), should be able to kill every kind of panzer IV, with special ammo it kills tigers from close range.
5. 88 kwk 43 shots (PAK 43, Jagdpanther, Ferdinand, KT, Nashorn) should never bounce, except Crock on long range rarely,
6. Tiger's armor is unrealistically thick,
7. The same with Panzer IV, which should be killed easily by 6p and has no right to bounce frontal bazooka, also has no chance to penetrate Jumbo from longer distances, even with special ammo.
8. PAK 40 is overpowered on very long range,
9. PIAT (was really inaccurate as I read) but in terms of damage is very underpowered, it should 1-hit at least panzers.
10. SP should be 1-shooting tigers and panthers like there was no tomorrow. BUT, it can't really penetrate KT from any distance beside "close", not to mention Ferdinand and Jagdtiger.
11. KT frontal armor should be practically invincible.

It took me 5 hours to make this post, so please don't hate me too much. I hope that somebody will say something, hopefully nice, about this. I will repeat that this is not a "CHANGE THAT!!!!" post. I just wanted to check how things work in the other of the two best WW2 RTS games. In my opinion the best guarantee of the balance in the game is keeping it as much realistic as we can...
Now, good night...

Man of War have a lot armor bugs, don't have historical APCR, wrong gun power and more...
Pershing i think can kill KT with APCR in turret.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Very interesting, thx. I actually agree with all your following points about bk.

[Jalis]

Hello!
I decided make an experiment to check all those many times discussed things like Tiger vs bazookas, vs 76 at gun; Jumbo armor etc. If you are interested keep scrolling, it's going to be a long post. (not my fault, no spoilers option...)


According to my results, in our mod:

1. Panzershreck should never bounce off from anything,
2. Stationary 88 is insanely overpowered at long distance, should have problems with jumbos, pershings and churchills
3. 76 mm US AT gun is horribly underpowered, it should be very reliable
4. 6p/57mm AT gun is underpowered ( also needs 2 shots to kill PE scout car), should be able to kill every kind of panzer IV, with special ammo it kills tigers from close range.
5. 88 kwk 43 shots (PAK 43, Jagdpanther, Ferdinand, KT, Nashorn) should never bounce, except Crock on long range rarely,
6. Tiger's armor is unrealistically thick,
7. The same with Panzer IV, which should be killed easily by 6p and has no right to bounce frontal bazooka, also has no chance to penetrate Jumbo from longer distances, even with special ammo.
8. PAK 40 is overpowered on very long range,
9. PIAT (was really inaccurate as I read) but in terms of damage is very underpowered, it should 1-hit at least panzers.
10. SP should be 1-shooting tigers and panthers like there was no tomorrow. BUT, it can't really penetrate KT from any distance beside "close", not to mention Ferdinand and Jagdtiger.
11. KT frontal armor should be practically invincible.

It took me 5 hours to make this post, so please don't hate me too much. I hope that somebody will say something, hopefully nice, about this. I will repeat that this is not a "CHANGE THAT!!!!" post. I just wanted to check how things work in the other of the two best WW2 RTS games. In my opinion the best guarantee of the balance in the game is keeping it as much realistic as we can...
Now, good night...

People like you are rare.

your results are mostly pertinent and more or less known from dev and a part of the community for a long time. However it will not change simply because remaining players are formatted to actual system, that is heavilly cheated toward axis. Changing values would be a shock for players.
I think the target table was made using tarrif stats and cosinus calculation. However ammo used for both US and GB are not historical ones, but always the worst available. GB for 6 pdr even use old plain steel shells removed by autumn 1942. That mostly explain poor allied perf at long range.

1) pzschreck. From what I know it can bounce.**
2) 88 aa, is a remnant of vcoh that have been keep like that because it was convinient for axis. this weapon is a mix of 88 flak 41 firing 128 mm shell.
3) exact, not to speak about it s rate of fire (one bk prefered trick to bash allied). US 76 AT gun average reload time 7 seconds, Pak 40 4.87 seconds.
4) 6 pdr/57 mm vs Pak 38. This situation was (and despite some correction still is) so hilarious I made an evil bunny post about it iirc.

I will stop here. Probably it s important to keep in mind BK is a PVP mod. The more it specialize in pvp, the less it become suitable for solo. Depiste distortions the game can be balanced for pvp that follow a very different way that solo do. Just for example mines and sabotage are about absent in pve, but a must in pvp afaik.

For SP Pershing from what I know, balistic perf was close the the KWK 88mm L71.

It s not useful I loose time in vain, but at least your efforts deserved a comment and congrats.

**. Bouncing : There is a difference to make between bouncing and able to penetrate. At bk real bouncing dont exist, I speak about a shell that would be able in theory to pen but bounce because fired form unfavorable angle. Overmatching mechanic is also not a thing include in game and bk mod.
That why I wrote pzfaut and schreck projectiles can bounce, but at the same time can penetrate about anything. it s true for all heat munitions.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Firstly I would say... Honestly great post illa!

But secondly, there is a little mistake here.. the Pak40 is not the same of any Panzer4s! All the Axis 'Jagd' versions are using 'pak' guns while the normal versions are actually using the 'kwk' ones!! And they pretty much differ for ur own information.

I don't really trust MoW. As that if u were truly looking for a game of which is purely for the sake of actual realistic values.. then I would simply say; The old legendary Combat Mission series for the historical realism archive gaming of all time!

Also... Looks like that u have tested the handheld AT weapons all in a very close distance.
But ur results doesn't show that the Tiger's frontal armor is unrealistically thick in Bk, why do u think that? All kind of AT weapons can actually penetrate it in Bk except 57mm AT guns although that they even do so rarely sometimes! So killing a Tiger isn't really a big deal as u r always having the counter parts of it... That's why I have been always saying that one of the most difficult things to do is to maintain a Tiger alive!!! Which is really about pure skills combined with some luck too...
But then the accurate long shot ability for Tigers should really cost less and become earlier available as I have been recently saying while it should usually die just by a single shot by the SP on the other hand maybe.
But don't forget that Jumbos and SP are also earlier available than they were in real life ^^ Even after delaying the SP by a CP btw.. someone was yet able to get it almost as soon as my first Tiger through a 2vs2 on Duclair!!!!
88s probably should be nerfed a bit... Pak43 of JPs should never bounce off any kind of shit, KT should be stronger etc.
Well, I generally agree.

[Jalis]

Firstly I would say... Honestly great post illa!

But secondly, there is a little mistake here.. the Pak40 is not the same of any Panzer4s! All the Axis 'Jagd' versions are using 'pak' guns while the normal versions are actually using the 'kwk' ones!! And they pretty much differ for ur own information.

I think here author focused on balistic peformances. Form this point of view, 75 mm L48 (or L46 for land pak 40 for exemple) stuk kwk pak had so close balistic perf that it can be view as a single category. Earlier L43 are an other matter of course.

[JimQwilleran]

1) pzschreck. From what I know it can bounce.**

Yes, of course, by my statement I just wanted to show that in real life panzershreck could penetrate all allied tanks, which also had no extreme slops that could cause a bounce. Of course in some battle situation bounce could occur, for example a turning tank that was shot not in a side armor but in the frontal.

But secondly, there is a little mistake here.. the Pak40 is not the same of any Panzer4s! All the Axis 'Jagd' versions are using 'pak' guns while the normal versions are actually using the 'kwk' ones!! And they pretty much differ for ur own information.

As Jalis later said, I only said that they are "similar", not the same. All 75 axis guns (except panther one, had quite close penetrations values to each other)

Man of War have a lot armor bugs, don't have historical APCR, wrong gun power and more...
Pershing i think can kill KT with APCR in turret.

I don't really trust MoW.

Idk, I have never heard anybody saying that values in this game are wrong. I played MoW throughout my whole childhood, my WW2 and tanks interest comes from there . For me it's very nostalgic game.

[Wake]

It also seems that in BK, the PaK 40 is overperforming vs the Pershing and Churchill croc. I can always rely on my PaK 40 to damage a normal Pershing, and it isn't as bad as these test results show vs Croc.

[JimQwilleran]

Without special rounds it was impossible for PAK 40 to penetrate Churchill with 152 mm or frontal armor. I didn't perform the test for Churchill IV thou. If you guys want, and think that it has some sense I can do more tests. I have a few ideas. For example Stuart gun, Greyhound gun, all kinds of shermans, churchill IV. Those could be tank vs tank test, for example Panzer IV H vs E8.

A nice idea would be also to test artillery. I could see after how many shots are some tank damaged for example.

[Tor]

Idk, I have never heard anybody saying that values in this game are wrong. I played MoW throughout my whole childhood, my WW2 and tanks interest comes from there . For me it's very nostalgic game.

I play this series after release in 2004 and play all games, this game good but it's not a simulator.

[Wolf]

Just from briefly looking, I don't really believe KT armor, against stuff like SP and 17pdr. Hellcat and Comet also seems to be way too useless in that regard.
One thing that you can't forgot, that in BK you can't aim for the "weaker spots" and that side armor is partly accounted in penetrations.

[JimQwilleran]

Just from briefly looking, I don't really believe KT armor, against stuff like SP and 17pdr. Hellcat and Comet also seems to be way too useless in that regard.
One thing that you can't forgot, that in BK you can't aim for the "weaker spots" and that side armor is partly accounted in penetrations.

Sure, my AT gun tests were done ONLY with frontal armor. If CoH engine also uses side armor in calculation, then ok, I didn't know that. But KT armor is 180 slopped = 240 mm. Max penetration of Hellcat is 143 mm, with special rounds 168 mm. Hellcat would be helpless vs KT even with flat armor.

[Tor]

Just from briefly looking, I don't really believe KT armor, against stuff like SP and 17pdr. Hellcat and Comet also seems to be way too useless in that regard.
One thing that you can't forgot, that in BK you can't aim for the "weaker spots" and that side armor is partly accounted in penetrations.

Sure, my AT gun tests were done ONLY with frontal armor. If CoH engine also uses side armor in calculation, then ok, I didn't know that. But KT armor is 180 slopped = 240 mm. Max penetration of Hellcat is 143 mm, with special rounds 168 mm. Hellcat would be helpless vs KT even with flat armor.

All MoW special rounds FAKE.
Helcat special have something like 200mm, but its complicated, not mean this easy kill KT.
APCR Rounds less accurate at middle and long distance, less damage, 88mm APCR damage like 37mm AP i think, much more losses from a distance, worse vs armor with angle.
Fictional example, 100metres, 500 metres,1500 metres
AP 140mm, 120mm, 80mm
APCR 200mm, 140mm, 50mm

[Jalis]

Making test, and or refere to your game experience could give results that make you believe some weapons are overpowered, or underpowered.

Typical exemple are captured AT guns, especially PAK 40, and camo AT guns / tanks / TH. A gun/th Under camo have accuracy / penetration bonus. It can be see as an ambush where hunter take it s time to aim, and target a weak point (if explaination for pen accuracy bonus is needed).

Target table is anyway a prb that never have been solved at BK*. There a load of exemples especially on heavies, but it rarely or never affect pvp. It need confirmation, but I dont think KT or JT are common on pvp games, if it even happens.

* to be fair as bk is pvp oriented some prb are irrelevant and dont need to be solve as long as it dont affect this kind of game.

[Warhawks97]

thx for this work:)

Thing with schreck and zooks is that we can give either this more realistic penetration or the current range, accuracy etc. But realistic pen with current behaviour would make hendheld weapons OP. I would prefer more realism here: good pen but lower range and accuracy vs moving targets).

That Jumbo and church armor is not really realistic is not a secret. Jumbo in my opinion has too weak armor but also comes to early (earlier available as normal 76 sherman) and gun too bad vs medium armor.

SP surprises me but if this is true would could finally remove SP and adding something else . I dont know much about gun and sources differing.


This shows what i meant in other topics that we have lots of "unneccassary quanity and quality". I think old devs first set costs for units and nerfing things then (or buffing) beyond their actual real performence unitll weapons and tank did fit in their cost (and in their imagination of super tanks/Humans and silly trash tanks/humans).


I wouldnt have a prob that super heavies cant be penetrated frontally really but markr once told me that this low pen chances are there to keep some balance. I think the balance of Super heavies do not rely on the chance a weak gun can penetrate them (e.g US 76 has 15% pen chance at point blank using basic AP rounds) but rather on the initial situation these tanks hit the field, if axis or allis have initiative and if the super heavy is or can be cut off and isolated from supporting units. That way axis focus would be on supporting and protecting the super heavy (if using them) or heavies in general using them as center of their assault while allied would first try to isolate these tanks and then surrounding them or immobilize the heavies instead try to engage them frontally with units like SP, 17 pdr with special AP rounds or hoping that one 76 makes lucky oneshot which is nasty for the player using super heavies and which wouldnt be really fair in my opinion as a win or lose can depend on the last 76 tank fielded that wins the game by doing a oneshot which is actuallly not possible.

Thing is what is wanted... current inf arcade style and units acting unrealistic strong or weak or trying to find more balance in more realism which would reduce some unncessary strong performences of certain units or too cheap and too weak units at the other hand.


The things jalis posted in his first post in this topic is something he told me long time ago and which was one reason why i got bothered by some things (e.g US paks reloading so much longer as axis pak of same calibre. The 50 mm vs 57 has the same prob but which got fixed few patches ago).

[JimQwilleran]

Thing with schreck and zooks is that we can give either this more realistic penetration or the current range, accuracy etc. But realistic pen with current behaviour would make hendheld weapons OP. I would prefer more realism here: good pen but lower range and accuracy vs moving targets).

I agree, if you would ever like to change shrecks and bazookas, they should be just less accurate. PIAT should deal the same amount of damage as bazooka.

Helcat special have something like 200mm, but its complicated, not mean this easy kill KT.
APCR Rounds less accurate at middle and long distance, less damage, 88mm APCR damage like 37mm AP i think, much more losses from a distance, worse vs armor with angle.
Fictional example, 100metres, 500 metres,1500 metres
AP 140mm, 120mm, 80mm
APCR 200mm, 140mm, 50mm

I don't think that a fictional example is a good example ;D. I also checked Hellcat in War Thunder, here are the results:

Standart ammo (M62 shell)
1500 m: 97 mm penetration
1000 m: 106 mm
500 m: 116 mm
100 m: 125 mm

AP ammo (M79 shell - it seems like this is the special ammo from Men of War)
1500 m: 88 mm penetration
1000 m: 107 mm
500 m: 131 mm
100 m: 154 mm

APCR ammo (M93 shell - it seems like this is the ammo you are talking about)
1500 m: 147 mm penetration
1000 m: 175 mm
500 m: 208 mm
100 m: 239 mm

Conclusion: you are right Tor, but I made no mistake in my test, it's just a different type of ammo in MoW . You are right, Hellcat with APCR should be able to penetrate KT from very close. Thank you for your clarification .

[lunarwolf]

funny no mention of Sherman 76 armor or penetration nor the fantasy double sandbag upgrade. how about lmg 42 vs bar suppression? panzerfaust?

I agree that pak 57 is underpowered. but pak 38 also requires 2 shots to hit a US halftrack, lightly armored vehicles. about the 76mm AT gun it seems the emplaced version from US inf doc is more powerful than the mobile version. don't know if it is in fact true but that is the way it seems to me, and I never understood it.

as far as SP is concerned, I don't know how you can come up with any realistic values, because it's real life combat experience is very debatable, even if it ever saw combat it was very little and not enough to have reliable data from a purely statistical POV

maybe try to be a bit more balanced next time

[JimQwilleran]

maybe try to be a bit more balanced next time

I am afraid you don't understand. I aimed for REALISM, pure realism, not for balance. Therefore I have stated that these are not ideas for in-game solutions, I just compared the Bk values with """realistic""" MoW values.

funny no mention of Sherman 76 armor or penetration nor the fantasy double sandbag upgrade. how about lmg 42 vs bar suppression? panzerfaust?

It took me 5 hours to make this test, I had no will to check Sherman, but in later post I suggested I could do that if you guys are interested. I didn't check panzerfaust because it has over 200 mm of penetration, so the test is not really needed .

[Tor]

Thing with schreck and zooks is that we can give either this more realistic penetration or the current range, accuracy etc. But realistic pen with current behaviour would make hendheld weapons OP. I would prefer more realism here: good pen but lower range and accuracy vs moving targets).

I agree, if you would ever like to change shrecks and bazookas, they should be just less accurate. PIAT should deal the same amount of damage as bazooka.

Helcat special have something like 200mm, but its complicated, not mean this easy kill KT.
APCR Rounds less accurate at middle and long distance, less damage, 88mm APCR damage like 37mm AP i think, much more losses from a distance, worse vs armor with angle.
Fictional example, 100metres, 500 metres,1500 metres
AP 140mm, 120mm, 80mm
APCR 200mm, 140mm, 50mm

I don't think that a fictional example is a good example ;D. I also checked Hellcat in War Thunder, here are the results:

Standart ammo (M62 shell)
1500 m: 97 mm penetration
1000 m: 106 mm
500 m: 116 mm
100 m: 125 mm

AP ammo (M79 shell - it seems like this is the special ammo from Men of War)
1500 m: 88 mm penetration
1000 m: 107 mm
500 m: 131 mm
100 m: 154 mm

APCR ammo (M93 shell - it seems like this is the ammo you are talking about)
1500 m: 147 mm penetration
1000 m: 175 mm
500 m: 208 mm
100 m: 239 mm

Conclusion: you are right Tor, but I made no mistake in my test, it's just a different type of ammo in MoW . You are right, Hellcat with APCR should be able to penetrate KT from very close. Thank you for your clarification .

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=530&view=unread#unread
Man why you dont read my posts FULLY??
War Thunder data shit.
Only armor data good.
KT have 180mm in turret without "extreme" angle, maybe 76mm APCR can get this, to get body i think need more than 240 for 76mm APCR, and less for 128mm AP.

[JimQwilleran]

War Thunder data shit.
Only armor data good.

Oh, I am sorry that I don't keep a Hellcat next to a KT on my backyard, so I could see if it penetrates it... I am using what is available to me. Both WT and WoT are not some shitty games, they are in some degree considered realistic ones. Additionally the values from them seem to match, so what is the problem? What should I do?

Please share with me your academic and scientific sources! Or maybe you own a KT?

and less for 128mm AP.

Allies don't have a 128 mm gun.

[Tor]

War Thunder data shit.
Only armor data good.

Oh, I am sorry that I don't keep a Hellcat next to a KT on my backyard, so I could see if it penetrates it... I am using what is available to me. Both WT and WoT are not some shitty games, they are in some degrees considered realistic games. Additionally the values from them seem to match, so what is the problem? What should I do?

Please share with me your academic and scientific sources!

You banned in google? There are many sources and they have differences but also differences in War Thunder and MoW much stronger than usual.
Different countries have different calculate mechanics, And there is no overall 100% correct numbers.
Stop Using games like wiki, they always some balance shit.
128AP for example.

[Jalis]

Before angering for nothing, a question For PVP men, Sukin, warkhawk and sorry to not name alls.

on 100 games, how many time did see a player Fielding a JT (if we could imagine a fools can play PE TH at pvp) ?
A KT ?
Perhaps elefant are more common ?

How many time did see Super heavy fielded on your pvp games ?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Due to my experience.. if u would like to consider it I mean, then I think that KTs aren't that rare actually! But JTs are...

[Tor]

I build 2 times KT, and 2 times he die after 90sec, panther much better.

[Jalis]

What is usual KT destruction cause ? Planes ? be imo then shoot from rear, others ?

What I try to know is : when super heavies are fielded, did it happen rarely or often, dying cause is a frontal penetration that would hardly happen with gun/ammo available by allies in western theater ?