inf doc ranger truck

[Warhawks97]

Can me make this truck as movable retreat point for all rangers? Similiar to AB HQ, Glider or stormtooper HT. Also maybe some healing like glider etc.

Thing is that inf doc is very very complex (esspecially late game). I used different types of "mobile retreat point". I used med trucks with captain inside but then my captain cant boost the inf (which is a must when fighting axis late game inf). Then i used the med trucks as heal points all over the map and puting flag on one but once spotted the entire enemie arty shoots that point (and all inf that is reinforcing is dead). Then i used the normal HT´s with captain inside as kind of mobile retreat point but again missing captain support and often squads with like 50% hp woth full 6 men. So maybe the ranger truck could work as mobile retreat (and heal point) for inf docs rangers and for the captain so that inf can be used with captain support without retreat either far back to be out of enemie arty range and without nasty and time consuming replacmant of the retreat flag.

The Buildable AB HQ should also heal like glider.


coz playing inf doc is really a hard job (due to neccessary numbers and high losses and the controling of like 10 inf squads). And since all factions have special retreat points for their special inf i think the inf doc could have it too since it uses different rangers and upgrading those with abilities.

[crimax]

A good idea ...

Infantry doc can have a double mobile HQs for better management of the huge number of infantry units this doc could have and, as infantry support doc, send units type 1 or 2 to support other sides of the front.

Someone could argue that if you put the mobile HQ near the front line, it is your responsibility but it is a good idea to give this (weak) doc a dedicated speciality.

BUT we have to choose now .....

1- only units that mobile HQ builds, can retreat to it. This way the player can separate rangers units (HQ or mobile HQ). Pros .... Cons ....

2- all rangers retreat to mobile HQ. This way the player has Rifle squads and AT squad on medic HQ (where generally Captain is or Retreat point is set) and all rangers units to the mobile HQ. Pros... Cons ....

I like the second more. Up to you guys ...

[MarKr]

If you said this:

Thing is that inf doc is very very complex (esspecially late game). I used different types of "mobile retreat point". I used med trucks with captain inside but then my captain cant boost the inf (which is a must when fighting axis late game inf). Then i used the med trucks as heal points all over the map and puting flag on one but once spotted the entire enemie arty shoots that point (and all inf that is reinforcing is dead). Then i used the normal HT´s with captain inside as kind of mobile retreat point but again missing captain support and often squads with like 50% hp woth full 6 men. So maybe the ranger truck could work as mobile retreat (and heal point) for inf docs rangers and for the captain so that inf can be used with captain support without retreat either far back to be out of enemie arty range and without nasty and time consuming replacmant of the retreat flag.

How exactely will the situation differ if the tuck becomes retreat point? I mean, if you leave it somewhere, put some kind of healing unit nearby then again once the opponent finds this spot - (p)arty time! . I think it would make the truck a preferable arty target.
I am neutral on this one since I don't think that making the truck a retreat point would be somehow game-breaking but for the reason given above, I also think it would make it harder to use the truck.

The Buildable AB HQ should also heal like glider.

AB already has many healing options - 82nd has healing kit (you pay for it but still an option), HQ squad has free healing ability, Medics from AB HQ - also healing for free, AB engineers can build triage centre. Yeah, yeah...you have to PAY to get the medics or triage but hey, if everybody gets the same possibilities, what will be the difference between factions (apart from textures and voices) ?
I also think it was meant to be this way since AB units can reinforce anywhere so you have mobile healing options while other infantry (apart from Luft) have to retreat to base (where usually is some healing point) or at least fall back to HTs or some place where they can reinforce.
So I am against giving healing aura to AB HQ.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Agree that its so hard to play inf doc in 4v4 games, you must use all stuff that doc have to make it effective on battlefield: 3-4 engeniers for searching sd2, builidng and repairing fortifications, snipers, lots of inf, providing arty support. The most complicated managment doc in 4v4 games as for me, but pretty relaxing in 2v2 though. Also their arty is almost useless in big games, low accuracy, low range...

[Warhawks97]

@crimax. I would also prefer number 2. Rangers retreat to truck and all others to base, captain or flag. The captain itself maybe to truck as well.

@Markr: it would work like BK stormtooper HT. Sure the vehicle will stand on sometimes but i keep it moving from time to time. I am trying to do the same with with inf doc currently but as i said.... either the captain is all the time in a med truck but far away from front or when using a flag i have to replace this flag and the med truck all few mins to decrease the chance being found by enemie arty. And as fast as frontlines can move sometimes there is no time to reset flag, build new one elsewhere etc.


In 4 vs 4 inf doc is best played when being simply everywhere. Staying on its own on one lane makes no real sense as soon as enemie gets a few tanks or tanks like Panther or/and AA tanks. So you are across the map with your units, building emplacments, repair stuff, putting med trucks, snipers, upgrading points and so on. The arty support isnt that good. Ok there is some off map but those often eat the ammo storage and i use it in late game only when neccessary or with chance to do good kills. Playing with masses of inf (including rifle squads spawning out of med truck) requires lots of ammo if they should be just somewhat effective and even when using the cheap weapon upgrades. I mean not sledomly when using med trucks accross the field i do get like 5 rifle squads all few mins giving them all just one BAR is easily 100 ammo and since rifle nades are the only way for rifle squads to be effective in late game its again pretty fast 100 ammo when each shot cost 20 ammo. Just in offensive or support (inclduing arty support) the inf doc isnt really good and its just as good as good as terror doc if even. Def doc arty support is a way better with howitzers and their long range ability, 88´s barrage and accurate 150 mm shots from grille. The 105 sherman has shorter range as normal howitzers and also accuracy is pretty low (effective first at vet 2 which takes a while). Giving two priests (600/50) with normal accuracy and howitzer range would help a lot against pretty strong axis defenses that occure not seldomly. Zooks arent really effective against most tanks either (when i watched sukins stream last night which was the reason why i finally decided to make this topic) several (10 or more) zooks with M6a3C missiles hardly damaged a IV/70 and like 12 or more from inf and AB doc were needed to kill one (though i think arty finally killed the tanks and not the zooks). And sending masses of inf is -to be honest- not seldomly not more than "veterancy food for the opponent" regadless of which masses are being used.

But in its first place the goal of that topic is to reduce the micro managment and complexity of a doc which is surely one of the hardest played docs in 3 vs 3 or 4 vs 4 games (if played correctly and effective). My "clicks per min" shown by a special programm is usually the highest when playing inf doc and its the only doc where i do feel the need of using Hotkeys sometimes.

[Krieger Blitzer]

The false claims of that the Inf doc is 'hard to play' or 'very complex' or whatever is utterly BS..
Currently this is the most ugly doc in Bk mod of all times... As it pretty much fulfills the concept of a purely ridiculous and silly 'arcade' game.
The player's score with this doc is usually like 200 kills, 400 loses but surely also the highest score of all and yet the winner somehow!!! Simply because this doctrine is always outnumbering the Axis opponents with probably a units count ratio of about 7 to a single enemy one!

I don't have much time to speak more about this stupid doctrine but shortly I would say;
If it's too complicated to have a lot of several units under ur command altogether at the same time while playing this doc, then the best option is to nerf this doctrine magical spamming capabilities someways so that it becomes easier for the player to manage. Although it's not hard at all actually to play using this doc atm.. all what u have to do is to just spam units or emplacements combined with enough arty support as much as u can ever do! Don't worry about any loses from ur side anyways...

[Warhawks97]

The false claims of that the Inf doc is 'hard to play' or 'very complex' or whatever is utterly BS..
Currently this is the most ugly doc in Bk mod of all times... As it pretty much fulfills the concept of a purely ridiculous and silly 'arcade' game.
The player's score with this doc is usually like 200 kills, 400 loses but surely also the highest score of all and yet the winner somehow!!! Simply because this doctrine is always outnumbering the Axis opponents with probably a units count ratio of about 7 to a single enemy one!

I don't have much time to speak more about this stupid doctrine but shortly I would say;
If it's too complicated to have a lot of several units under ur command altogether at the same time while playing this doc, then the best option is to nerf this doctrine magical spamming capabilities someways so that it becomes easier for the player to manage. Although it's not hard at all actually to play using this doc atm.. all what u have to do is to just spam units or emplacements combined with enough arty support as much as u can ever do! Don't worry about any loses from ur side anyways...

You have apparently no idea of how to play inf doc..... Thing is most just use 2 ranger squads, one tank and thats all so far... maybe one jumbo (90% go only for jumbo and fail as soon as the axis get their tanks, esspecially Panthers etc)..... I´ve never actually seen an inf doc player really able to play this doc well. Nobody uses rifle squads really as they are just feeding. Only one player next by me managed to use them effectively. Thing is that really all player stay on their "lane" and then fail when enemie gets a Tiger or tank Iv or Panther later. As inf doc you rely on 17 pdrs or jacks to counter enemie tanks while those rely on your spam to get sticky on enemie tanks when those start using Jt´s etc or jagdpanzers in general. And to get stickies on enemie tanks it cost easily like 3 inf squads. And all the spam is often not enough to fight against stormtoopers and lutf inf and is usually pure feeding the enemie. I for myslef played very often vs inf doc with BK doc and at the end my squads had been all vet 5 and with like 100 kills each (even the leader squad). A rifle squad in late game is not more worth than 175 mp and usually they are dead before you can activate any damn ability and often you are just glad that you could press the retreat button early enough. It needs apporx 10 rifle squads+ captain+ one ranger squad to fight against luftwaffe inf (and even with such number its hard). I´d really like to see you playing inf doc in our next 4 vs 4 games and show me how "effective" this "magical" spam of crap units is. The inf support in late game relys so far on one arty sherman with poor accuracy (as i said and shown it cant even destroy an unemplaced 88 reliable unless its max vet). To beat inf doc i need in average a Tank IV (as terror maybe Panther G), leader and assault stormtooper squad and maybe an ostwind and just keep moving to avoid arty. And emplacment spam..... i recently faced inf doc that defended arround his base when he lost the mid game against me. He had a 107 mortar, 1 emplaced pak, a normal pak, ambushed rangers and his mate provided a 76 sherman. It cost me just one Walking stuka salvo to destroy and decrew all emplacments and to deal huge damage to that jumbo. What i want to say: axis have no probs with emplacments and mg emplacments in late game are more a kind of "early warning system" which draws some attention (esspecially schreck attention) on it killing maybe 1 men and to weaken the enemie assault so that counterattack works.


And what the heck are we talking about..... tell me when you had an 2 hour 4 vs 4 games at graves bridges playing inf doc and being all over the battlefield with your units to provide maximum support as sukin said: sd2 searching, snipers, defensives, healing truck etc and when your army consists not only of 2 rangers and 1 jumbo (which would all die against a normal axis tank) and instead of like 8 rifle squads, 1 at squad, captain, 4 med trucks, 5 emplacments that need to be repaired, combat sappers and 4 squads to detect all sd2 bombs and two recons and when your army is arround 180-280 popcap large (while other armies of teammates and axis opponents -including axis one- are arround 78-123 popcap large each). and NO... pure number do not help. Tested, seen and failed. In a game uploaded in old forum a player used that spam using like 12 ranger squads (some uprgaded) and two 76 shermans doing assaults which all died pretty fast. A Blobb of 12 rangers get stopped usually by a single MG or tank. AA tanks and HE 88´s proving very deadly against blobbs btw.

And we are talking here about a silly special retreat point for rangers! We do not talk about adding movable long tom arty or something..... jsut about something everyone else has. Its... only..... a ..... retreat.... point........ so why are you crying? Have you even played inf doc (in games written above)? I mean using inf.... not only a single HE jumbo. Of what ive seen of you playing with infantry in general was -in best case- poor blobbing without any effect. So how can you say that the things all others do agree with about infantry doc is "BS"?

[Krieger Blitzer]

I really don't like to harm u with my words! As I don't even have much time during these recent days to keep tracking any related topics, and I think it's worth to hint on that I am using my mobile to type atm btw...

However that firstly I didn't actually mention anything regarding ur suggesttion of adding a retreating point to that truck because honestly I don't really care about it in particular... Neither I did even point personally at any of u through my previous short text above. So how come for u then to say that I am crying on it?? Or that I have no idea considering how to use inf etc???!!! o.O
Pull urself together mate!

I was just giving a clear shortened opinion about that the Inf doc spamming capabilities are currently too high than supposesd to the extent of being magical.. which is something u 'with ur own or by urself' have just proven by speaking about having a huge army exceeding the allowed popcap limit of 250 while others are even yet below crossing the 150 popcap army line!!!

Nevertheless.. talking about how effective these massive numbers could be is not my subject cuz surely it differs from situation to another... As that 1v1s are not like 2v2s, 3v3s or 4v4s. Also not all the maps are alike!

So we are all at the end agreeing on that this doc deployable unit numbers are insane and not normal anyways. Which is a problem in itself!! That's exactly my meant point...

[JimQwilleran]

So we are all at the end agreeing on that this doc deployable unit numbers are insane and not normal anyways.

lol

[Krieger Blitzer]

I am wondering really about what could be funny with this sentence anyhow???!!! Yes, indeed no one can deny the fact of that the Inf doc is actually the most spammy doctrine of the game through all times...

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Whats not normal in this?

[Warhawks97]

Things is that all US inf is quite bullshit and only usefull being used in such numbers. I seldomly deploy rangers even untill they got this cost drop to 270 coz first then they seem to be really worth to build. I also talked about "unneccessary quality" and "unneccessary quantity" and this is one part of it. Able to build huge numbers of something doesnt mean its better or more effective as players have limits in terms of micro managament. Sure i can build like 3 new rifles squads per min but still, i would always prefer one stormtooper squad or gren squad for 400 mp with one lmg42/stgs over 3 silly rifle squads that are whiped out right in first combat! I wrote a lot about it here in forum but people wanted to keep allis and esspecially US pure quantity and US inf doc worked that way and suddenly its an "insane" and "unormal spam"? Thats weird. Damn i be glad to see rangers more as an elite unit and not as cheap spam shit but currently they are only really usefull used that way. I admit that 1 vs 1 and 2 vs 2 is quite different and rifles with grease+ sniper+ 81 mm inf mortar can be usefull but when it comes to 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 its worth shit later and the required micro managment to play inf doc infantry expands often by far players skills and the speed the brain can realize and react on battlefield events. This makes pure spam capabilties questionable in their effectivness and as i said i rather use units that arent insane expensive (but strong) but also not only cheap and i think most do so in BK. Besides that i also often wrote that axis do not have much trouble fighting any ammount of eneie unit numbers. Axis only struggle against spam pared + arty but pure arty or pure spam isnt a real threat for axis. Even "insane" large spams of cheap shermans and cheap infantry (inf doc) can be encountered by like 3 - 4 units.


And as long as rifle squads and rangers perform as they do right now i dont consider the inf doc spam capabilties as "insane" or unnormal but just as neccessary.

[Krieger Blitzer]

That's a good question Sukin.. although I believe that u know the answer very well as it's already written above by Hawks himself too! But then I have to probably repeat it again but this time in other means maybe...

The problem is that this huge massive army numbers could usually somehow become a benefit to the user specifically during 1v1s and also 2v2s as he will easily outnumber his opponents, or actually a disadvantage on the other hand through bigger 3v3s or 4v4s games as it's gonna be much harder for him to handle all his several units while to also keep concentrating on all the battle sides supporting all the spots by helping all his mates as this is actually the main doc mission but now he will have to do this for a much longer duration time of fighting too because 4v4s usually last longer than any other battle types... While to also keep in mind that it would be getting worse for him by reaching the late game stage by the appearing of the super heavy panzers!!! This doc is capable of beating Axis on the early game stage very effectively by crushing their base but this is something which is impossible to achieve during 4v4s and so it then becomes a harmful thing to him to have these huge numbers than to become an advantage unlike during the less crowded smaller battles.

Sukin, even if u remember ur 1v1 with Ivelios on Lyon when he was Inf doc and u were Luft doc if not mistaken... The result was devastating as although that u still had a much higher kills to loses ratio than him with even a higher total score compared to his generally.. yet he was the winner! Simply because he so badly outnumbered ur troops. At that time I remember u complaining about the patch of 486 claiming that it was the one that created this mess with the Inf doc.. however that later I guess u have realized that this has nothing certain to do with the patch but in fact it's with the doc itself since the start even before the patch...
But whatever I think that; increasing the supply yard upgrade prices back again ONLY for this doc 'if possible' might help in someways.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Also btw; I think that Combat Engineers should be moved to the Armor doc while for the Rangers to become exclusively available only for the Inf doc! And again, no Bar suppression anymore...

[Warhawks97]

That's a good question Sukin.. although I believe that u know the answer very well as it's already written above by Hawks himself too! But then I have to probably repeat it again but this time in other means maybe...

The problem is that this huge massive army numbers could usually somehow become a benefit to the user specifically during 1v1s and also 2v2s as he will easily outnumber his opponents, or actually a disadvantage on the other hand through bigger 3v3s or 4v4s games as it's gonna be much harder for him to handle all his several units while to also keep concentrating on all the battle sides supporting all the spots by helping all his mates as this is actually the main doc mission but now he will have to do this for a much longer duration time of fighting too because 4v4s usually last longer than any other battle types... While to also keep in mind that it would be getting worse for him by reaching the late game stage by the appearing of the super heavy panzers!!! This doc is capable of beating Axis on the early game stage very effectively by crushing their base but this is something which is impossible to achieve during 4v4s and so it then becomes a harmful thing to him to have these huge numbers than to become an advantage unlike during the less crowded smaller battles.

Sukin, even if u remember ur 1v1 with Ivelios on Lyon when he was Inf doc and u were Luft doc if not mistaken... The result was devastating as although that u still had a much higher kills to loses ratio than him with even a higher total score compared to his generally.. yet he was the winner! Simply because he so badly outnumbered ur troops. At that time I remember u complaining about the patch of 486 claiming that it was the one that created this mess with the Inf doc.. however that later I guess u have realized that this has nothing certain to do with the patch but in fact it's with the doc itself since the start even before the patch...
But whatever I think that; increasing the supply yard upgrade prices back again ONLY for this doc 'if possible' might help in someways.

In 2 vs 2 this spam is being achieved seldomly. There a combo of an devastating off map + cqc wins the game and then a single howitzer can become dominating arty with sufficient range to reach most map areas.... if not and when axis gets some tanks even numbers wont help so much. In 3 vs 3 or 4 vs 4 the available arty is pretty vulnerable to any kind of enemie arty and range is not enough to reach important areas arround the enemie base even when they early game was a good one.

what has supply yard to do with that? The second upgrade is currently for example correctly set for late game inf doc. Not to cheap but also not too expensive to become uneffective cost/boost ratio is pretty well for inf doc currently. And what what would you expect with special inf doc supply yard cost changes?

Also btw; I think that Combat Engineers should be moved to the Armor doc while for the Rangers to become exclusively available only for the Inf doc! And again, no Bar suppression anymore...

Yes. I could live with that and support. I already made a topic about it. With BAR suppression we could do it the other way arround.... all lmgs would get such an ability. CW and US would need two BARs or Bren to do so, axis one lmg34 or lmg42.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

@Tiger
Ye, i remember this battle and i even have a screen, pretty silly to loose a battle with such score.
http://cs624225.vk.me/v624225474/21ae6/03O_d_VRJN8.jpg

[Wake]

Lyon is not a good example of infantry doc, because it is entirely a city map, and of course, american infantry would have a huge advantage in the extremely close quarters. Especially at the start, when axis just have k98's, and infantry doc can start with combat engineers, and the fights are forced to be at close range. And later in the game, CQB squads pop out of every building and rape the helpless axis infantry. Near the end, heavy panzers like tigers can be easily flanked by bazookas or sticky bombed because of the cover that the city provides.

Lyon is also a smaller map, meaning that the short range of infantry doc's artillery doesn't get noticed as much.

[Krieger Blitzer]

@Hawks; I don't mind..

@Sukin; Good, I was actually looking for this!

@Wake; That's true anyways...

But guys; Next time at some point.. I will be posting a topic of which should be helping on (specifically helping the devs) with collecting all the possible already suggested ideas (Only the easy, the simple and the logic ones) to be achieved or the already reported 'truly real and serious' bugs by players among the whole past few months so that for all the points to become there in a single topic! But I won't be able to do so at all during these recent days because currently I am very busy... However that this could be posted soon after about 2 or even 3 weeks out from now maybe!!
So if there are probably any plans in the head for any new coming patches by the devs then they really should hang it all on until this topic to be finally posted.. as it's going to be really helpful to them I believe Also, I think that they should be gratefully rewarded if those 'simple or tiny' changes are all done on the right way As it should be then leading or turning the game out to even a higher level of perfection ^^

[Warhawks97]

@Tiger
Ye, i remember this battle and i even have a screen, pretty silly to loose a battle with such score.
http://cs624225.vk.me/v624225474/21ae6/03O_d_VRJN8.jpg

ive seen luft players with similiar stats. I have to games in my replay list and one is called "Luftwaffe K/D: 153/300". Still the luft player won iirc. So such things do not mean much as it depends if the player takes full squad losses or losing only single soldiers. I had two such games in my replay list in which luft players had by far more losses as kills (mainly when fighting against vehicles and tanks with inf only) but still winning the game.

[Krieger Blitzer]

That must have not been against Inf doc in a 1v1! ^^ More likely Armor doc, right?! Well.. I do actually hate the PanzerFaust100 sooo much to be honest... It has probably the same range of the HE Sherman which means a higher shooting range than even the range of all the remaining handheld AT weapons!!! PanzerFaust100 really wasn't a good idea unless tanks would then have a much higher range too on the other hand like in reality.. and so I believe that PanzerFaust100 is problematic and not cool neither is realistic at all to be represented on this game with such a shorter tank shooting ranges than in real life, as it should be replaced with a normal PanzerFaust for the Gebirgsjäger squads instead. This might then help a bit I think! I usually lose a lot of tanks while playing the Armor doc only to these units... X_X

Plus that btw.. the player's score with the Inf doc is almost always like this crap usually against all kind of docs!
And it's worth to mention that the Blitz doc score will be usually similar to this too against the CW RE doc.
But that's about certain single docs against certain others! Not a specific one like the Inf doc against all others.. so it's fine here...

[Warhawks97]

That must have not been against Inf doc in a 1v1! ^^ More likely Armor doc, right?! Well.. I do actually hate the PanzerFaust100 sooo much to be honest... It has probably the same range of the HE Sherman which means a higher shooting range than even the range of all the remaining handheld AT weapons!!! PanzerFaust100 really wasn't a good idea unless tanks would then have a much higher range too on the other hand like in reality.. and so I believe that PanzerFaust100 is problematic and not cool neither is realistic at all to be represented on this game with such a shorter tank shooting ranges than in real life, as it should be replaced with a normal PanzerFaust for the Gebirgsjäger squads instead. This might then help a bit I think! I usually lose a lot of tanks while playing the Armor doc only to these units... X_X

Plus that btw.. the player's score with the Inf doc is almost always like this crap usually against all kind of docs!
And it's worth to mention that the Blitz doc score will be usually similar to this too against the CW RE doc.
But that's about certain single docs against certain others! Not a specific one like the Inf doc against all others.. so it's fine here...

The faust range is problematic and i also hate fighting them. You have to check permanent when the gebirgs do ry to shoot the faust which is often right when my tanks start shooting. That way is hard to finish them off. But well


I checked my replay list and funnily i saved this replay of luft inf twice. One called like in my previous post and then the same game as "Inf doc 407/271". It was la chaudiere and i used rifles with captain+ rifle nade mainly iirc. But that was an old version where luft reinforce cost had been so painfully cheap and which was the reason why i named the same game as two replays with these names.