Possible WH Schwimm changes

[MarKr]

Hi guys, I've been thinking about this reward unit and as many of you said it is just stupid and makes no sense to use it I was thinking about ways to make it more appealing.
I was thinking something like this:
- The gunner would be there from the start = no need to have a soldier inside to man the MG (same weapon stats as now = bike/PE schwimm)
- The Schwimm would keep a slot for one soldier to transport (so you could use it to in order to fast transport spotters/snipers/officer around the battlefield)
- the cloth "roof" would be alway on (just to make it a little visually different form the PE version )
- of course it would still keep the advantages of Schwimm (faster turn rate than Bike; no slowdown in water...)
- It would be more expensive than Bike
- Unlike PE version, it would have no special abilities

I think it would be especially useful for carring the Officer around - he could still provide bonuses from the inside of the vehicle (similarly to CW Lieutenants from Bren Carriers) and thus keep him mobile and protected from snipers and other small arms threads.

What do you guys think? Would you be even interested in such changes?

[Warhawks97]

Hi guys, I've been thinking about this reward unit and as many of you said it is just stupid and makes no sense to use it I was thinking about ways to make it more appealing.
I was thinking something like this:
- The gunner would be there from the start = no need to have a soldier inside to man the MG (same weapon stats as now = bike/PE schwimm)
- The Schwimm would keep a slot for one soldier to transport (so you could use it to in order to fast transport spotters/snipers/officer around the battlefield)
- the cloth "roof" would be alway on (just to make it a little visually different form the PE version )
- of course it would still keep the advantages of Schwimm (faster turn rate than Bike; no slowdown in water...)
- It would be more expensive than Bike
- Unlike PE version, it would have no special abilities

I think it would be especially useful for carring the Officer around - he could still provide bonuses from the inside of the vehicle (similarly to CW Lieutenants from Bren Carriers) and thus keep him mobile and protected from snipers and other small arms threads.

What do you guys think? Would you be even interested in such changes?

sounds good. But it has apparantly old schwimmwagen stats and surviving Boys-AT (recently 37 mm pak even).

Also if you make it equal to PE schwimm than one is overpriced or the other too cheap. Iirc booth cost 250 mp or? If so it would mean that two units with same combat values but one with lots of abilties and the other without any would cost the same. So there must be a cost difference between PE and WE schwimm when one has dozens of abilties while the other has not.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Let it stay as it is, but add capturing function.

[Kasbah]

I like the initiative, thanks Markr.
The best option for me would be to able to transport an officer/sniper. Sounds good

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Em, it already have possibility to transport 1 man, as well as Jeep btw.

[Krieger Blitzer]

The WH Schwimm currently DOES NOT have the same armor values as the PE one! It's much stronger.. PE one was strong too but only in the past, and now it should be once again like it...

[Rubytooth_UA]

Hi guys, I've been thinking about this reward unit and as many of you said it is just stupid and makes no sense to use it I was thinking about ways to make it more appealing.
I was thinking something like this:
- The gunner would be there from the start = no need to have a soldier inside to man the MG (same weapon stats as now = bike/PE schwimm)
- The Schwimm would keep a slot for one soldier to transport (so you could use it to in order to fast transport spotters/snipers/officer around the battlefield)
- the cloth "roof" would be alway on (just to make it a little visually different form the PE version )
- of course it would still keep the advantages of Schwimm (faster turn rate than Bike; no slowdown in water...)
- It would be more expensive than Bike
- Unlike PE version, it would have no special abilities

I think it would be especially useful for carring the Officer around - he could still provide bonuses from the inside of the vehicle (similarly to CW Lieutenants from Bren Carriers) and thus keep him mobile and protected from snipers and other small arms threads.

What do you guys think? Would you be even interested in such changes?

Just do 1st point with gunner and 2nd with slot for officer - other never-mind

[Warhawks97]

Em, it already have possibility to transport 1 man, as well as Jeep btw.

i wonder that nobody ever realized it oO.

[MarKr]

But it has apparantly old schwimmwagen stats and surviving Boys-AT

I would look into the stats and try to balance that.

Also if you make it equal to PE schwimm than one is overpriced or the other too cheap.

Well, I said it would be more expensive than Bike but I haven't really decided the price yet.
ATM it is:
Bike: 220 MP 3 Pop
WH Schwimm: 240 MP 4 Pop
PE Schwimm: 250 MP 2 Pop

I think the price should be set to a value which would correspond with the Schwimm's benefits over Bike but still not too low in order to prevent the situation where nobody would even consider using Bike anymore - atm the difference of just 20MP is too low and with the benefits the Schwimm would bring, I fear Bike would disappear from game :/ Any suggestions on the price?

Let it stay as it is, but add capturing function.
....
Em, it already have possibility to transport 1 man, as well as Jeep btw.

Most people said it makes no sense to choose this reward unit for WH because the MG doesn't work until you put in a soldier which requires even more resources to make it combat-worth. That's why I suggested these changes.
As for the Cap function - I don't think it should get it from the start but it could get the ability when a soldier is loaded?

The WH Schwimm currently DOES NOT have the same armor values as the PE one!

It actually does, however for some reason it has +20HP compared to the one from PE...the WH would have same stats as the PE one after the changes...

[Krieger Blitzer]

It actually does, however for some reason it has +20HP compared to the one from PE...the WH would have same stats as the PE one after the changes...

WHY??? The PE one armor values should be like the WH one after the changes and not the contrary!!! PE one currently can't stand a chance against basic Jeep...

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Actually yep, the old Shwim problem was in big ressistance to AT boys, but with this also came thing that Schwim is dieng under bullets soooooo fast, Jeep seems to have 5 times more HP in compare to schwim. Also PE shwim repairing time is twice longer than jeeps\bikes or WH schwim for no reason.

[DaŇjeL_SK]

I played today against.... that swim by WM always survived with minimal life after one hit of AT boys...

[MarKr]

Actually yep, the old Shwim problem was in big ressistance to AT boys, but with this also came thing that Schwim is dieng under bullets soooooo fast, Jeep seems to have 5 times more HP in compare to schwim. Also PE shwim repairing time is twice longer than jeeps\bikes or WH schwim for no reason.

The only thing we changed in the patch back then was the PE Schwimm's armor type to the same as Bike had. It didn't work so now it has its old armor type back (it wasn't listed in any change log - we forgot to do that) that means that Schwimm is as durable as it was before the change. So how comes that it "is dieng under bullets soooooo fast"? Maybe it has harder time against Jeeps (Jeep's weapon was buffed) but there is no logical reason why should any other weapons be any more effective against Schwimm than they were before - infantry small arms were not touched and the armor type is as it was = same chances as before.

The PE one armor values should be like the WH one after the changes and not the contrary!!! PE one currently can't stand a chance against basic Jeep...

How is it possible that some people say that jeep and schwimm are OK and others say that Schwimm is just screwed against Jeep?
Just... if we decide to make Schwimms one way or another both of them will share the same values since it is the same vehicle.
Generaly talking we could sligltly buff them against Jeep weapon (so the chances are similar on both sides) but AT weapons should one-shot them.

OK what about the price? What would you consider acceptable for such a vehicle?

[Krieger Blitzer]

The PE Schwimm is ok!! That's true but against the Jeep.. it's not ok!!! The WH Schwimm exactly as is now just is OK on all sides in my opinion, even if sometimes it survives a shot from boys AT rifles with few health remaining... And so I just shortly would say that; I believe that the PE Schwimm should be exactly the same as the WH one in armor and not the opposite.

Or well... U now want to re set the WH Schwimm to lose -20HP in order to be exactly the same as the PE one currently, right?! Then u really must buff them both against the basic Jeep weapon after that. Although I prefer the other solution above..

I think that Bike should cost -10MP and -1 Pop, while WH Schwimm -2 Pop... Done!

[Warhawks97]

That you compare bike and schwimm 1 vs 1. Fact is jeep usually wins the 1 vs 1. Also fact is that PE schwimmwagen and also the bikes MG killing infantry still a lot faster as a jeep does. And the cost: jeep cost 240 mp and is good vs axis bike and schwimm and can deny some infantry movments. The Schwimm cost 250, lose vs jeep but shreds inf very fast or almost instantly when catching them in no or yellow cover. Also it can capture points, repair other units, several doctrine abilities like booby traps, sabotage, mines, marking target and later improved repairs.


@sukin and the repair question: At start PE repairs slower than sappers, pios or engieeners but after improved repair upgrade they do repair faster (at least in vcoh it was working that way). So it just seems that schwimm needs longer to be repaired.

-10 mp for bike: job done.

[XAHTEP39]

Hi guys, I've been thinking about this reward unit and as many of you said it is just stupid and makes no sense to use it I was thinking about ways to make it more appealing.
I was thinking something like this:
- The gunner would be there from the start = no need to have a soldier inside to man the MG (same weapon stats as now = bike/PE schwimm)
...

It`s very useful initiative!
Similarly, WH Sdkfz.251 must have MGs from the start (and maybe US M3/M2 HT, if I don`t forgot it) = no need have a squad inside , such as Sd.Kfz. 251/1 Stormtrooper Halftrack (WH Blitzdoc) and PE Sdkfz.250/1.

[XAHTEP39]

Whats about model of Kubelwagen from CoH1- EF?
In my opinion it`s a good replacement for Schimm of WH (current PE Schwim will be saved).
Kubelwagen may be have one AA MG on rear constantly (such as Jeep MG), one passenger seat near driver (for officer and recon, which saved his observe/special abilities and cover from light enemy fire or just for transporting sniper) or emplace (for some expense of ammo) second MG on passanger place near driver but without opportunity of siting officer/recon/sniper.

[MarKr]

Concerning the WH Schwimm price - what if it gets the capture point ability WHEN a soldier is being transported but the price will be same as PE model (I would rather keep the changes on the WH Schwimm only, rather than balance it by changing other units). That way you'll get an early game vehicle capable of capturing points - something you otherwise won't get that early (or at all) as WH. Would that be fine with you guys?

Similarly, WH Sdkfz.251 must have MGs from the start (and maybe US M3/M2 HT, if I don`t forgot it) = no need have a squad inside , such as Sd.Kfz. 251/1 Stormtrooper Halftrack (WH Blitzdoc) and PE Sdkfz.250/1.

This probably won't happen...I mean, it would make sense but these are meant as infantry transports which (unlike from Opels and Trucks) provide bullet protection to the transported infantry. If they get a permanent gunner, they become kind of an early game attack vehicles which is not their role.

[Warhawks97]

Concerning the WH Schwimm price - what if it gets the capture point ability WHEN a soldier is being transported but the price will be same as PE model (I would rather keep the changes on the WH Schwimm only, rather than balance it by changing other units). That way you'll get an early game vehicle capable of capturing points - something you otherwise won't get that early (or at all) as WH. Would that be fine with you guys?

Similarly, WH Sdkfz.251 must have MGs from the start (and maybe US M3/M2 HT, if I don`t forgot it) = no need have a squad inside , such as Sd.Kfz. 251/1 Stormtrooper Halftrack (WH Blitzdoc) and PE Sdkfz.250/1.

This probably won't happen...I mean, it would make sense but these are meant as infantry transports which (unlike from Opels and Trucks) provide bullet protection to the transported infantry. If they get a permanent gunner, they become kind of an early game attack vehicles which is not their role.

axis already capture the backland pretty fast with krads already (esspecially when one gets two right at start). That way axis would capture the map even faster giving them a nice boost in res. Allieds have to send infantry still which takes longer (despite 150% cap speed of rifle squad whic is the reason i build sometimes like three of them for my team) and often players must send back combat units back from frontlines first after the first clash. If they would be able to cap with a men inside then i think same should be for jeep and bren carrier (which wouldnt be bad at all).


i dont get your part why the transporters should have gunner at default. They are coming not earlier as any other vehicle. Also they arent good as assault unit but they would be usefull combined with inf and able to give some firesupport. The Transporters arent used often anway. With inf inside its pretty risky to lose vehicle and inf so mostly they just stay arround with officer or captain insde or near a flag which is also not their role. I mean that was their role in combats, increasing mobility and providing infantry support with its MG´s. They fought more often dismounted than mounted on them as the armor wasnt that great and many weapons (esspecially later cal 50) penetrated the transoporting room. So their job was mainly to transport into combat follwing the own tanks and being mobile MG platform in combat but the inf often dismounted. So it would make even sense if all would have gunner by default like the PE one.

[MarKr]

axis already capture the backland pretty fast with krads already (esspecially when one gets two right at start). That way axis would capture the map even faster giving them a nice boost in res. Allieds have to send infantry still which takes longer (despite 150% cap speed of rifle squad whic is the reason i build sometimes like three of them for my team) and often players must send back combat units back from frontlines first after the first clash. If they would be able to cap with a men inside then i think same should be for jeep and bren carrier (which wouldnt be bad at all).

WH Schwimm would cost 250 MP + 160MP to make it able to capture (if you put in Spotter, otherwise the price goes even higher). I was thinking that players would rather let PE team mates do the early fast-capturing and WH would rather build some infantry to fight. The capture ability would become handy later when (if) using the Schwimm to fast move Snipers/spotters somewhere while getting to an unprotected point = fast capture. It would be just a window of opportunity time to time, more of a situational ability rather than its best-shining feature...but maybe you're right.

i dont get your part why the transporters should have gunner at default. They are coming not earlier as any other vehicle. Also they arent good as assault unit but they would be usefull combined with inf and able to give some firesupport.
......

ATM they are transport units and mobile reinforcement points which is their best feature imo. If they get permanent gunner, do you really think they will be "firesupport"? It would be more like Axis providing fire support (since it has MG42) while M3 would be just kinda around (since it has .50cal) - I don't think I have to bring up that "Vehicle mounted MG42 vs Vehicle mounted .50cal" stuff again . After which we would receive whine post like "It's unfair, Axis HT has two permanent MGs so it's immpossible to flank and it's shredding infantry while US HT has .50cal which does almost nothing? WTF? In reality it would be....(bla bla bla)" .
Also they are even more fragile than tanks and people already complain how hard it is to keep tanks alive...so if anybody used them as firesupport, they would be destroyed pretty quickly and after that they would (again) end up "staying arround with officer or captain insde or near a flag". I think that both WH and US have better versions of "Mobile weapon platforms" which might be more expensive but also more combat effective, so I can see no harm in keeping HTs as transport vehicles.

[XAHTEP39]

... "It's unfair, Axis HT has two permanent MGs so it's immpossible to flank and it's shredding infantry while US HT has .50cal which does almost nothing? WTF? In reality it would be....(bla bla bla)" .
...

Possible, Sdkfz.251/1 must have 1 front permament MG and second rear MG is available only with inf inside.

P.S. MarKr, what`s about potentiality of replacing WH Schwim by Kubelwagen? -
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=502&view=unread#p3810?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Possible, Sdkfz.251/1 must have 1 front permament MG and second rear MG is available only with inf inside.

Agreed.

Edit:-
Oops, it's already made like this btw!! But nothing is called 251/1 actually.. I think the one u r meaning is the PE HT named as Sdkfz 250/1 if not mistaken...

@MarKr;
Absolutely no Axis HT is having 2 permanent MGs by default currently! o.O

[MarKr]

... "It's unfair, Axis HT has two permanent MGs so it's immpossible to flank and it's shredding infantry while US HT has .50cal which does almost nothing? WTF? In reality it would be....(bla bla bla)" .
...

Possible, Sdkfz.251/1 must have 1 front permament MG and second rear MG is available only with inf inside.

Yes, but this was just one part of my reason why I don't support this. So again:

Also they are even more fragile than tanks and people already complain how hard it is to keep tanks alive...so if anybody used them as firesupport, they would be destroyed pretty quickly and after that they would (again) end up "staying arround with officer or captain insde or near a flag". I think that both WH and US have better versions of "Mobile weapon platforms" which might be more expensive but also more combat effective, so I can see no harm in keeping HTs as transport vehicles.

So for me this is a no. But if Wolf agrees, then by all means.

P.S. MarKr, what`s about potentiality of replacing WH Schwim by Kubelwagen? -
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=502&view=unread#p3810?

That would mean implementig a new model which is, given the fact that these vehicles are not used very often in-game, much more work than reworking the current Schwimmwagen. Also they would fulfill the same role so why implementing a new unit when one which is already in the game can do the same job...

Oops, it's already made like this btw!!

Only for PE Halftrack. WH has two MGs but only maned if a squad is inside. And for the reasons I gave you above, I think it should stay that way.

EDIT:

@MarKr;
Absolutely no Axis HT is having 2 permanent MGs by default currently! o.O

Yes, but I thought that that was the thing which the guys suggested. Apparently I got it wrong but still I keep my standpoint.

[XAHTEP39]

That would mean implementig a new model which is, given the fact that these vehicles are not used very often in-game, much more work than reworking the current Schwimmwagen. Also they would fulfill the same role so why implementing a new unit when one which is already in the game can do the same job...

Ok, I understand.
Although Kubelwagen`s model is ready in addon CoH1-EF - http://www.moddb.com/mods/coheastern-front:
With 1 MG and passenger:

With 2 MG without opportunity to siting passenger:

This adds variety between types of WH and PE starting units

[Warhawks97]

wow... the one two mgs (MG42 and MG34) would be the ultimate infantry shredding weapon/vehicle... Better than tanks or any other vehicle.