The rarest Bk units

[MarKr]

@Markr and Lunar: Sure you have fair points still i dont know what exactly sandbags do.

It's already been said - they add HP and slightly lower penetration chance

In my last games i didnt used them and shermans still stood 2 schrecks sometimes.

That's because of the random factor.

The accleration reduction and overall lowered flexibility is already in game when sandbags are upgraded.

they become somewhat slower but that doesn't make them easier to hit while moving so it only affects the movement speed itself. Maybe it takes a bit longer to get out of artied area but if you keep them away from each other, then using barrage on one sherman is kinda waste. So I have to keep my stand point that these upgrades increase their survivability (e.g. increases quality) while not affect the quantity factor.

Still iirc the chance for Tank IV to pen e8 or at least normal 76 sherman using standard AP rounds is still twice as high as the chance of the sherman to pen the tank IV using also basic AP.

Maybe in the basic stats but since the E8 is used as the main battle tank, people usually put TCs in them and those increase penetration (but Axis players usually use TCs with big cats) so in the end you quite often end up with better (or maybe same) penetration chance in case of Sherman vs PIV.

Bottom line is that it still feels off :/.

[Warhawks97]

well. If you increase cost of shermans when upgrading sandbags nobody will use them anymore. I think we have simply two "styles" here. Axis have either skirts by default or at least upgrading for a pretty cheap cost. The skirts become expensive on long term and cost increases with the number of units fielded. Sandbags here are completely different. They are a lot more expensive to upgrade than skirts but cost do drop with the number of units being build (furthermore they are doc specific while skirts are not which means that ammo cost for skirts can be divided over many players which tanks showing the same performence while allied Sandbag Tanks must be build from armor doc player). So allied have variable cost and axis fix cost and thus enables allied on long term to keep the shermans cost effective while axis will spend their mp in single but powerfull tanks (and thus in some low cost for skirts as less units are being build). In the early stage when axis get Tank IV H/J´s and allis (armor doc) the first 76 shermans the Tank IV´s usually have skirts while shermans have no skirts. In late game allis may get sandbags but axis tanks with guns that nullifiy the pen decreasing factor of sandbags anyway. The HP boost of sandbags is just 60-70 HP more (10%) of what i know. Means on long term shermans will be a little but cheaper and their defensive upgrades are variable cost and thus pushing the axis to build more heavier tanks (like Panher) as the Tank IV´s will cost a bit more with fixed cost for defensive upgrades.


Also iirc the pen chance at max range for Tank IV against sandbaged 76 sherman is still 80% and vs e8 with sandbags 60%. Sherman 76 pen chance is 53% vs stubby tank IV´s and 43 vs H.

@markr: I am not sure if the e8 is the main battle tank for most players currently. I add commanders to shermans but usually one TC is inside a Hellcat or Jacks (most players put TC´s only in Hellcats). And when i fight mainly inf i put commander into normal sherman and one into Hellcat and many others do so as well and using mainly HE sherman+Hellcat. I am a rare occassion that i use standard 76 sherman.

Also when i talked about lower flexibility i did not want to say that they will be an easier arty target and not that the unit is harder to hit. I was mainly aiming at the chance to flank enemie tanks without that they are able to shoot me. In my last games unupgraded e8´s did a nice job in outflanking axis tanks before they could shoot me.


My point is that if the shermans get sandbags as fixed cost or when they get more expensive or when there will be two sherman versions (with and without sandbags) i think sandbags wont be used anymore. I rather have 2-3 76 shermans without sandbags when i face any axis heavy tank or tank with big canon (which all have in late game) than 1-2 76 shermans with sandbags. At the same time Sandbags pushing the Tank IV´s "away" from the battlefield their armor decreasing factor is usless against the weapon systems which come after Tank IV. However i wouldnt mind being able to have sandbaged and unsandbaged shermans available at the same time. When my opponent keeps throwing tank IV´s i will use sandbags. If he gets big tanks i will use unupgraded again.


Another option (what i often suggested) is that sandbags and skirts have no effect on Tank guns and paks. They would only effect hendheld AT weapons and hollow charges in general as this was their main purpose.

[Kasbah]

Well I totally agree on the fact that 76 gun should have a rebalance. Imo against german heavyes that cost likes 2-3 or 4 times more it's way too effective and against mediums, way too random

[Warhawks97]

Well I totally agree on the fact that 76 gun should have a rebalance. Imo against german heavyes that cost likes 2-3 or 4 times more it's way too effective and against mediums, way too random

Its random against everything. It bugs me that i cant kill a stubby tank IV somtimes and it bugs me that it sometimes penetrates JT´s, elephants/KT´s (Jagdpanther) frontally. Its a magic weapon.

[Kasbah]

Weird. I've never seen a 76 penetrating a JT por an Elefant. But a JP yes.
And hell, a Panzer IV shouldn't cost more than a 76!

On the other hand I've seen a Jagdpanzer IV (long-barreled) needing 5 shots, to destroy a 76. First shot, nothing. Second shot, half life over. Third shot, almost dead, engine damaged. Fourth shot, engine destroyed. Fifth shot, dead. And while this happened the 76 kept firing and almost destroyed the jagdpanzer.

[Warhawks97]

Weird. I've never seen a 76 penetrating a JT por an Elefant. But a JP yes.
And hell, a Panzer IV shouldn't cost more than a 76!

On the other hand I've seen a Jagdpanzer IV (long-barreled) needing 5 shots, to destroy a 76. First shot, nothing. Second shot, half life over. Third shot, almost dead, engine damaged. Fourth shot, engine destroyed. Fifth shot, dead. And while this happened the 76 kept firing and almost destroyed the jagdpanzer.

yeah. happens that some tanks just dont want to die:P Like once a Firefly took 3 or 4 rear hits from panther and one crit after the other except main gun and the firefly then oneshoted the Panther. I just could laugh although it wasnt funny. (The Long barreld did nothing to sherman with first shot? it failed or? because a Panther canon cant bounce from shermans unless its an jumbo and the long barreld Jagdpanzer has Panther gun.


Actually there should be only Tank IV H/J (and G) in game. Those should have similiar (just slightly more expensive) cost as 76 shermans but also very similiar in performence (slightly superior still). Also in their effectivness against inf booth should be about equal (massive damage per bullet vs high rof) but here Tank IV´s with top gunner have also the edge over 76 sherman.