Tanks ignoring infantry / Cost of HE

[Doomsdaymachine]

Hi folks, new to the forum but long time BK player, liking a lot of the new aspects of the beta so far.

Just wanted the opinions of the player base to see how you are feeling about the tanks not engaging infantry and current cost of HE on low munition maps/in general, also with the variation of AP/HE swappable and regular use (pay per shot) tanks.

Im wondering if its worth having the AP/HE rounds permanently swappable for all tanks, as what rounds do the regular (pay per shot) tanks fire, im assuming AP but then what would the point of buying AP rounds be (my understanding is increased pen % vs tanks at max range) but would it not make more sense to have all tank upgrades set up like the Pz3/Churchill (90+ munitions to gain access to free or low cost swapping between permanent AT/HE) so they would essentially attack tanks only with AT equipped or inf/emplacements with HE. Or alternately, would it be possible to bash in a targeting toggle so Tanks only or All units (minus AT guns)?

Sidenote: im one of those scummy AI playing dudes and im currently finding ze germans absolutely spam the christ out of Pz3 permanently loaded with HE (yes i know the runners of BK cant change anything AI). Im also finding that Pak40 currently outranges Jacksons and I didnt know if that was the AI being shifty or an actual thing.

Yes I know this post is an absolute car crash.

Cheers!

[Walderschmidt]

While I’ve entertained the idea of all tanks getting AP/HE equipped for free, having all tanks being able to swap to me is a no no for several reasons.

1) It would make the German PIV E/ PIII N pointless as their main use is HE.

2) It would downplay the usefulness of a Sherman as a multirole tank being able to swap between AP and HE every 15 seconds

3) It would incentivize people to go heavy on tanks even more to steamroll others and mess up the flow of the game. Where things are now, I feel that players truly are incentivized to use combined arms, as intended.

Wald

[Doomsdaymachine]

While I’ve entertained the idea of all tanks getting AP/HE equipped for free, having all tanks being able to swap to me is a no no for several reasons.

1) It would make the German PIV E/ PIII N pointless as their main use is HE.

2) It would downplay the usefulness of a Sherman as a multirole tank being able to swap between AP and HE every 15 seconds

3) It would incentivize people to go heavy on tanks even more to steamroll others and mess up the flow of the game. Where things are now, I feel that players truly are incentivized to use combined arms, as intended.

Wald

I can understand your reasoning, you make some very good points, personally I just felt that tanks were a lot less necessary in this update when you can hammer out hellcats that wreck mid game tanks and also have HE + camo.

Also please take into consideration that my experience is somewhat stunted in the fact of my not playing PVP very often so mainly VS expert AI.

Cheers

[Walderschmidt]

I feel that they’re more useful because their AP shots don’t get wasted on infantry and AT guns when they’re trying to shoot other tanks which usually are their greatest threat.

Most tanks still have HE that can be used against infantry though there’s certainly going to be a debate sometime about the effectiveness of the coaxial and hull MGs. Personally I think they’re fine and people will start varying their ‘army’ compositions with mutually supporting units rather than relying on a single kind of unit that over-performs to the point of being OP.

AT guns too feel way more useful as for now they actually counter tanks rather than get countered and betray their namesake.

I understand you come from a PVE perspective and ask that you consider I come from a PVP perspective and that this mod is mostly balanced around it. The AI cheats and is able to spam tanks other expensive units that normal players would not be able to. The AI has super micro even if its units often make dumb decisions. No amount of balancing will fix that.

Wald

[Doomsdaymachine]

I feel that they’re more useful because their AP shots don’t get wasted on infantry and AT guns when they’re trying to shoot other tanks which usually are their greatest threat.

Most tanks still have HE that can be used against infantry though there’s certainly going to be a debate sometime about the effectiveness of the coaxial and hull MGs. Personally I think they’re fine and people will start varying their ‘army’ compositions with mutually supporting units rather than relying on a single kind of unit that over-performs to the point of being OP.

AT guns too feel way more useful as for now they actually counter tanks rather than get countered and betray their namesake.

I understand you come from a PVE perspective and ask that you consider I come from a PVP perspective and that this mod is mostly balanced around it. The AI cheats and is able to spam tanks other expensive units that normal players would not be able to. The AI has super micro even if its units often make dumb decisions. No amount of balancing will fix that.

Wald

I agree with the wasted shots to an extent but what would your opinion be of a toggle button to swap between firing at tanks / firing at everything ? (minus AT guns as tanks shouldn't really be engaging them anyway)

I find that the coax/top gunner does a pretty ok job of hosing infantry, I think im just used to having a more varied target base for tanks and not creating a new strategy for the new beta as of yet.

AT guns are fantastic at the moment and I appreciate the fire rate increase and their ability to not get murdered in one stray round.

I absolutely understand that the mod is made predominantly for PVP and im happy with that as ill just change to fit the requirements of the mod as a whole, to be fair, the AI is fine, it spams a load of units but its not impossible to fight, one thing I have noted with the AI is that a Pak40 was firing at and outranging a Jackson (in camo) and I found it a little odd that the 90mm didnt have a longer range than the 75mm but then again, im not sure if this was accurate to real, balancing reasons or purely the AI being a dick.

Overall im happy with the direction the mod is taking and im excited to hopefully play some PVP at some point (work hours permitting) and remodelling my strategy.

Cheers

[MarKr]

I agree with the wasted shots to an extent but what would your opinion be of a toggle button to swap between firing at tanks / firing at everything ? (minus AT guns as tanks shouldn't really be engaging them anyway)

There are a few problems with this as some tanks already have full UI and such ability would require a free UI slot. Another thing is that the "AP" is really inaccurate vs infantry (literally 5% chance to hit a soldier even if the soldier stands right in front of the tank) so why would you even want to enable tanks to shoot at them? They will miss 95% of the shots anyway.

one thing I have noted with the AI is that a Pak40 was firing at and outranging a Jackson (in camo) and I found it a little odd that the 90mm didnt have a longer range than the 75mm but then again, im not sure if this was accurate to real, balancing reasons or purely the AI being a dick.

AT guns have more range than the same guns mounted on vehicles and tanks. So e.g. PaK40 (the gun pushed by infantry) has more range than PIV H that also has PaK40 as its main gun, same way US 76mm gun has more range than the same gun mounted on Shermans, same goes for PaK43 88mm, 50mm, 57mm and 37mm guns. It is set this way to make the AT guns actually useable. With standard ranges any unit could attack them as soon as the AT gun could fire and so they often died immediately.

So is your Jackson was outranged by the modile AT gun, it is intentional but it wouldn't be outranged by PaK40 mounted on vehicles.

[Doomsdaymachine]

Ah that all makes a lot of sense, thanks for the explanation and Ive realised how unviable it is realistically.

Thanks as well for the heads up on AT guns, many many hours of playing BK and I have only just realised this... I really should get into the details of all the units at some point.

cheers

[Walderschmidt]

Cheers! Come on the BK discord sometime and say hello to Kwok, Consti, Dicky/Sausage/CGarr, Drescher, myself or others.

Wald

[Doomsdaymachine]

Will do, when I get more time I'll dip in and say hello!

[Warhawks97]

While I’ve entertained the idea of all tanks getting AP/HE equipped for free, having all tanks being able to swap to me is a no no for several reasons.

1) It would make the German PIV E/ PIII N pointless as their main use is HE.

2) It would downplay the usefulness of a Sherman as a multirole tank being able to swap between AP and HE every 15 seconds

3) It would incentivize people to go heavy on tanks even more to steamroll others and mess up the flow of the game. Where things are now, I feel that players truly are incentivized to use combined arms, as intended.

Wald

with the current change i think its time to re-think tanks again. If you remember i already once made a topic about it: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4092

Currently all multirole tanks that can fire AP and HE should have an HE upgrade for arround 45 to 85 ammo (from cromwell/shermans pz IV to JT). Light tanks and vehicles with smaller guns ofc cheaper. After that they can swap for free between AP and HE: However, the ammo swap takes an entire reload time +2 seconds. Means tanks with lower base reload can faster swap between HE and AP, thus adapting faster. But it wont be possible anymore to fire an HE quickly off against any target as it is right now. Means lighter guns can be a lot more adaptive.

That also means that a tank, when facing an AT gun and wants to shoot HE, requires an entire reload cycle to fire off an HE shell. Same when when fighting inf. It wont be possible anymore to quickly fire off an HE shell between AP shots.



To your concerns:

1. Nope. They wont pay ammo for HE shots, have a higher rof usually and i would make them more effective vs entrenched inf, emplacment (chances to kill the crew) and units behind cover suffering less from cover.

2. Sherman 75 is a multirole tank just like the 76 sherman, long barrled Tank IV´s and King Tigers. The difference is that it reloads faster and thus is able to swap the ammo mid combat.

3. Many of them have like 9 second base reload. 9+2 seconds means it would take 11 seconds to swap the ammo. So when you have AP loaded, going for HE takes you 11 seconds before you can get off an HE round. So i dont see an issue. I think it would be even harder to steamroll stuff since you have to plan more carefully with what ammo you go into combat first.


Another advantage would be that HE would become a an option even in anti tank warfare by trying to immobilize heavier tanks. Current perma HE tanks already doing so quite nicely already.