BETA 5.27 AP accuracy vs inf and AT guns

[Warhawks97]

Its good that inf doesnt get so easily sniped from range but dear devs, i just tested what it means "cant hit it". I stood in front of inf in the flat open and later tried to shoot an AT gun from veeeeery close range. And even then its impossible to hit these things. Thats a bit ridiculous.

I think when staying right in front of them with the gun barrel already touching the target, there should be a chance to hit them at least.

This is currently outright hilarious. It makes it look like the weapons have some sort of magic shield that deflects the rounds.


The base accuracy against them dropped from 50% base accuracy to 6%.

[MarKr]

Intentional. Use HE or wait for coaxial/hull/top MGs to kill the crew.

[Warhawks97]

Intentional. Use HE or wait for coaxial/hull/top MGs to kill the crew.

I think thats what everyone is doing anyways. AT least thats what i do whenever i saw an AT gun.

But when my gun literally touches it i think i am allowed to hit it.
drop to like 30% base accuracy would have been enough i think. The gun usually doesnt die in an AP shot anyways.

AT guns got AP by default and pretty high rof. I dont see why they need such a magic shield.

[MarKr]

Use HE that has +1000% penetration against their magical shields.

[kwok]

If your tank is touching the ANTI-TANK gun then that means the ANTI-TANK gun probably had some shit RNG with killing your TANK. This is a strategy/tactical game that looks to reward good tactics, not model realism.

As Markr says, use the tool specifically designed to handle the situation and you'll be just fine.

[Warhawks97]

If your tank is touching the ANTI-TANK gun then that means the ANTI-TANK gun probably had some shit RNG with killing your TANK. This is a strategy/tactical game that looks to reward good tactics, not model realism.

As Markr says, use the tool specifically designed to handle the situation and you'll be just fine.

When i managed to get arround it, or when it is simply a smaller AT gun which i want to destroy so that lighter tanks and vehicles can safely move up.

I think it would have been enough to cut the accuracy by half and not by 90%.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Ya, when i first came up with this idea in one of my posts... i stated that AT guns should be hard to hit with AP rounds, not impossible to hit.. but u know MarKr's extreme ways to implement things

Though, i am glad he considered the idea to begin with, and it's fine either ways.. as long as HE rounds are working fine.
Good to see also that AT guns are not laser guided vs each others anymore, they used to snipe one another with 100% accuracy which was nonsense.

[Walderschmidt]

I’m fine with this.

Low priority change at best.

Wald

[kwok]

Actually it wasn't Markr that suggested that number, it was me. So I'm the extreme one here. But like I said, it was an intentional design decision that was discussed. We just don't like how TANKS so easily countered ANTI TANK guns. Just as we didn't like how AIR power countered ANTI AIR so easily. It's almost like ANTI-___ units only ANTI the ___ when RNG is good. This is a strategy game with elements of RNG, not casino slots. It's not like we left tanks entirely defenseless against ANTI TANK guns... you just need to use something else other than ARMOR penetrating rounds for NON-ARMOR units.

[Warhawks97]

Actually it wasn't Markr that suggested that number, it was me. So I'm the extreme one here. But like I said, it was an intentional design decision that was discussed. We just don't like how TANKS so easily countered ANTI TANK guns. Just as we didn't like how AIR power countered ANTI AIR so easily. It's almost like ANTI-___ units only ANTI the ___ when RNG is good. This is a strategy game with elements of RNG, not casino slots. It's not like we left tanks entirely defenseless against ANTI TANK guns... you just need to use something else other than ARMOR penetrating rounds for NON-ARMOR units.

A Baseball bat is not supposed to be used against anyone. But if i do, it still works as a weapon. So when i stand right next to such a gun, i think i am supposed to hit it with any shell.

Also i wonder, how about howitzers? They also have at capabilties, i am allowed to hit those with AP ammo from point blank? Or is it too much casino?

[Krieger Blitzer]

i think howitzers (regardless big or small), Nebels, etc; can be still one-shotted with HE rounds.
Surely it sounds a bit ridiculous when you still can't hit them with AP even at point blank.. but game-play wise it's fine (i think), as long as HE rounds are doing their job. Your tanks won't auto-engage AT guns anyways... Also, 5% AP accuracy seems more fair when AT guns shoot at each others; because if the percentage was increased to like 30% (for example) then AT guns would occasionally hit each others totally based on RNG, so some players would be more lucky than others.. which isn't exactly as fair as now, nobody hits anyone.

[MarKr]

OMG for the 100000 time - gameplay 1st, then realism. All the reasons I've heard so far against "AP cannot hit AT gun from 50cm away" are based on realism (you should be able to hit when you are this close).

Give me one actual gameplay problem that the current AP accuracy vs AT guns creates. And when I say "actual", I mean a real problem that is generally experienced by players in the game, not some "it once happened to me..." situation.

[Krieger Blitzer]

OMG for the 100000 time - gameplay 1st, then realism. All the reasons I've heard so far against "AP cannot hit AT gun from 50cm away" are based on realism (you should be able to hit when you are this close).

Give me one actual gameplay problem that the current AP accuracy vs AT guns creates. And when I say "actual", I mean a real problem that is generally experienced by players in the game, not some "it once happened to me..." situation.

Gotta agree with MarKr here.

Hawks, you don't need to fire at towed guns (regardless if AT guns or Nebels/howitzers) with AP rounds.. and if your tank doesn't have HE rounds, then it's probably a TD as it's not supposed to counter them at all.

Those things aren't supposed to be countered with AP rounds, and it's more realistic like this actually.

[Walderschmidt]

I agree with MarKr

[kwok]

Actually it wasn't Markr that suggested that number, it was me. So I'm the extreme one here. But like I said, it was an intentional design decision that was discussed. We just don't like how TANKS so easily countered ANTI TANK guns. Just as we didn't like how AIR power countered ANTI AIR so easily. It's almost like ANTI-___ units only ANTI the ___ when RNG is good. This is a strategy game with elements of RNG, not casino slots. It's not like we left tanks entirely defenseless against ANTI TANK guns... you just need to use something else other than ARMOR penetrating rounds for NON-ARMOR units.

A Baseball bat is not supposed to be used against anyone. But if i do, it still works as a weapon. So when i stand right next to such a gun, i think i am supposed to hit it with any shell.

Also i wonder, how about howitzers? They also have at capabilties, i am allowed to hit those with AP ammo from point blank? Or is it too much casino?

A baseball bat isn't supposed to be used against anyone. But you're right it can still be used as a weapon. But the last time I saw a baseball bat used against a person in a baseball game, the player was kicked out of baseball. Are you suggesting we allow tanks to hit AT guns with a higher percentage chance, but if it does it then we blow up the tank too for breaking the rules of baseball?

[Warhawks97]

Gameplay issues:
I think the way this change got implemented is shit afterall. Recently i had a match during which we managed to break the enemie defenses. As i tried to kill the stuff like howitzers and Nebelwerfers behind the enemie lines with my tanks after breakthrough, i just couldnt hit any of them. My ammo was so far expanded by previous use of arty and HE rounds and also on cooldown. It ended up with nebelwerfer almost escaping.

Or instances when the target survived one HE shot, what to do then? Waiting 30 seconds to fire HE again?

Also one tactic i and others use is to use M10 in flank speed mode when there is an opportunity to quickly hunt down nebelwerfers and other artillery equipment when seeing a breach in enemie defense. These brave guns sometimes brought back the team into the game and restoring balance. That wont be possible anymore which is fucking lame and dump. Player skills gets punished for no reason while noobs being protected by that new system.

And then i had a match with two shermans attacking an AT gun from two sides, but i had only ammo to give HE to one of them. The one with HE got its main gun damaged and had to retreat, the other, perfeclty flanking, didnt hit the gun and gunner got killed in the battle before. My only chance was to drive so close to the AT gun that the hull MG could kill the crew. But it took so long that the flanked AT gun actually turned arround, just to be killed luckily a second before shooting.

Noob Protection System
In a reference to world of warships it happens that even when your enemie exposed itself perfectly so that he would die in a devastating strike in one salvo by hitting the citadell of the ship, he doesnt die because the AP shells either hit the superstructure or having overpenetrations and thus dealing just little damage. Essentially, players that played bad or did a deadly mistake get away simply due to the RNG and spread of your shots even though the aim was perfectly from close range. This is considered as "noob protection system of Wows" among its community.

Now we have gotten a noob protection system in BK. When HE is on cooldown or just not available due to being on low ammo (eg playing low ammo maps) idiots will always have their badly placed AT guns, howitzers and nebelwerfers protected because its not possible to hit them anymore.


Units with AP rounds only available:
Or when units that have nothing else but AP (early churchill MKIV, M10, Jagdpanther and german TD in general) cant hit a stupid howitzer unit or AT gun anymore. Thats just garbage.

Alternatives:
I think AT guns doing fine with AP by default and high rof now. That change was not needed.

TD´s have sometimes a modifier applied that makes them harder to hit after they fired from ambush.
We can add this modifier to AT guns as well. After the shot they would be much harder to hit for like the next 10 seconds, allowing them to fire a bunch of shots before getting hit.


Or ambush gun shots in general apply debuffs on enemie vehicles. Like the crew is shocked by the initial shot, making quickly but bad aimed return shots. Thats something i would wish every ambush would cause.


In any way, we have to get a better system with temporarily buffs for AT guns or debuffs on vehicles. This entire system was not thought to an end and will likely end up in a huge shit storm when going live.

[MarKr]

Everything you wrote here is pretty much only a question of getting used to the new system. Just as you said, you attacked your opponent and new you will need to deal with infantry/weapon crews but only brought units that cannot do it effectively.

Bring a tank with a perma HE with you (75mm Sherman, Stuart, Axis vehicles with stubby weapons) or some infantry or motorized unit with MGs to clear the infantry where your main tanks lack.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Right, I don’t like it either. It’s ridiculous when a tank cannot hit an AT gun from point blank.

[Walderschmidt]

Is it possible to change the accuracy towards at guns based on range bracket?

For example - leave it at .05 modifier for every range except the lowest one - make that one a .15 modifier and test it out?

Wald

[Warhawks97]

Everything you wrote here is pretty much only a question of getting used to the new system. Just as you said, you attacked your opponent and new you will need to deal with infantry/weapon crews but only brought units that cannot do it effectively.

Bring a tank with a perma HE with you (75mm Sherman, Stuart, Axis vehicles with stubby weapons) or some infantry or motorized unit with MGs to clear the infantry where your main tanks lack.

Holly shit. This is just some boring shit.... you are not allowed to do this, or this or this because you need to do this first. This is worse than the german Burocracy.

You get the skill to outplay your enemie, like using a whole in the enemie lines, rush in with M10 but noooopeeee. M10 is not allowed to kill the Nebelwerfer, pls try again later. This is garbage. This is outright noob protection.


Or a situation where you managed a breakthrough with a Jagdpanther or elephant and you stay in range of an enemie howitzer that you can kill. And believe me, this happend many times over the years. Usually you just shot that howitzer, now i am not allowed to. Thats some great bullshit.

A 850 Mp and 150 fuel tank is not allowed to hit a Howitzer because it doesnt have HE. That sounds fair and logical. What do you want? to get an HE tank to that location in time?


I mean, when i flank an HMG squad with an inf squad with submachineguns or stgs, why am i allowed to hit the HMG crew with small arms weapons? From this logic HMG crews would be invulnerable by small arms fire because they are meant to counter infantry, not to get killed by them. I have to use arty/mortar/tanks with HE first in order to kill the HMG and its crew. Skill reward=0.

So, i am suggesting now that HMGs and their crew cant get killed by infantry because they are meant to counter inf, not to get countered by them, even when getting flanked by them.


And i want you add a formular i have to fill and hand over to my enemie whenever i am about to attack. Just so that he has enough time to prepare and to bring stuff into safety. If i dont fill that formular in which i describe what units i will use and how, i will get kicked out of the game. Because noob protection system activated.

Is it possible to change the accuracy towards at guns based on range bracket?

For example - leave it at .05 modifier for every range except the lowest one - make that one a .15 modifier and test it out?

Wald

changing range brackets changes accuracy against every unit. There is just one base accuracy value within the target table of the gun. The accuracy drop applies to every TT, thus every unit in game.


As i said, the best thing would be when ambush shots cause some sort of "shock" among the crew applying debuffs in accuracy and vision or so. Or AT guns are harder to hit after firing from ambush just like certain TD´s have it.


Usually tanks had 50% base accuracy against AT guns. And since most tanks lose 25% accuracy at range, this means the chance to hit was just 37.5%. On top of that the AT guns could survive several direct hits while shooting twice as fast. A properly placed AT gun that was adequate in terms of penetration usually made a short job of the tank. The only tanks causing issues to AT guns were tanks with super thick armor able to withstand the shots.

Also, perhaps you fix some AT gun stats. When the AT gun has just 65% base accuracy vs 90% of certain elite tanks like Panther, its not surprising that the panther can go 1 vs 1 against an AT gun. But instead of fixing AT gun accuracy, you just bash the tanks instead which mostly arent wrong.

But, now all tanks got beaten accross the board. The good old sledgehammer tactics. All tanks must suffer now, even those with weak armor or unable to carry HE rounds.

[MarKr]

And i want you add a formular i have to fill and hand over to my enemie whenever i am about to attack. Just so that he has enough time to prepare and to bring stuff into safety. If i dont fill that formular in which i describe what units i will use and how, i will get kicked out of the game. Because noob protection system activated.

Or you can attack with a combined force of units that remove the "noob protection" right away. But if you wish to go with the formular, don't forget to sign the declaration P5-X because without it you won't get the neccessary stamp on the acquisition request DR-12 and your formular will be rejected.

[Warhawks97]

And i want you add a formular i have to fill and hand over to my enemie whenever i am about to attack. Just so that he has enough time to prepare and to bring stuff into safety. If i dont fill that formular in which i describe what units i will use and how, i will get kicked out of the game. Because noob protection system activated.

Or you can attack with a combined force of units that remove the "noob protection" right away. But if you wish to go with the formular, don't forget to sign the declaration P5-X because without it you won't get the neccessary stamp on the acquisition request DR-12 and your formular will be rejected.

if you have a tank force or two as spearheads and attacking from two directions, it is some sort of combined arms.

When my mortar or arty clears an AT gun and i have a chance to push through the lines with a tank it is combined arms. But the tank stands at some point further in behind the enemie lines than other units. Its called a Blitzkrieg spearhead. So you deal as much havoc as possible, including taking out other AT guns that got flanked, howitzers, nebelwerfers and stuff like that before they get a chance to run away. But thanks to this change this tank spearhead Blitzkrieg is no longer possible. Untill my inf arrives or other special purpose HE shooting units, the valuable targets have been escaped and the Blitz attack rush has failed. Thx to this change, Blitzkireg in Blitzkrieg mod is no longer possible.
History twist: Germans never succeeded in Blitzkrieg. It is a fail assumption. Their fast moving Tank forces were unable to hit anything other than tanks. Its just a Myth German High command created in order to scare future opponents. In fact it failed due to shitty AP accuracy.

Honestly, the only logical step from now on would be that tanks simply have AP and HE by default and able to switch between them. Sometimes ammo is rare on maps, i myself sometimes didnt add HE which i instead spared to use abilties like Blitzkrieg or arty (combined arms btw). But now this would mean they would be unable to hit valuable targets like light field artillery and all that stuff.


The Formular would btw be always rejected. Simply because the tactics described in there would sometimes result in the enemies defeat. This can is ofc not allowed in BK, even when using proper tactics.

[Walderschmidt]

^got a replay for this?

Wald

[MarKr]

if you have a tank force or two as spearheads and attacking from two directions, it is some sort of combined arms.

Yes, it is the sort of combined arms that lacks an effective way of dealing with weapon crews.

The Formular would btw be always rejected. Simply because the tactics described in there would sometimes result in the enemies defeat. This can is ofc not allowed in BK, even when using proper tactics.

Oh, sorry, I got confused and recommended the P5-X declaration. It is actually the M-4 declaration and acquisition request isn't the DR-12 but the HE-90. That's the one they cannot reject. Sorry, my bad.

[crazzy501]

ahh... Motorized armies gain their importance... I like this.
Just a day before I'm played BK on Beta branch as PE Luft doc and was forced to combine Panthers with Luft pioneers and parachuters to fight against Brit defensive positions. It's was hard but interest battle.
So, for me, for now, the only change I think is needed is lower cooldown for HE shots