90 mm armed Tanks

[Warhawks97]

I cant help myself but they are all garbage and cost in-effective.

Anyone else who thinks so?

Pershing costs a lot of CP and yet being at the same cost lvl as Tigers and above Panthers. Considering that it comes late and can be penetrated by a huge ammount of anti tank weapons and not really superior to Tigers and Panthers and more at the same level, i just dont get that these units are so brutally expensive. The late game gets literally flooded by Panthers and dedicated counter units cost more than those.

Srsly, Jacks should not cost over 500 MP, non of them and Pershing only arround 750 and 130.
The Pershing also costs about twice the fuel upkeep of a Panther.


If there would be some sort of "being in danger lvl" that describes how many things are really dangerous to a Pershing, then i would argue that the it would equal the lvl of Panzer IV´s. I think there are even more high danger risks for a Pershing as there are for Panzer IV´s.

[CGarr]

I made a post saying so a while ago, all we got out of it, through compromises, was the price drop for the armor doc jackson. That cost drop didn't really change the fact that Jacksons and Pershings are super underwhelming for their cost and often lose to panthers, despite being the strongest allied armor in the game. The issue isn't with the 90mm guns, its with the panther, but Axis players tend to shit themselves if you suggest anything about nerfing panthers, so I gave up on that and have just been pushing for buffs to Allies instead.

The shitty part is these buffs hurt axis more than a panther nerf would, tigers are a non-issue as US armor and and the KT comes way too late for how insignificant of an upgrade it is over the Tiger 1. Sure, its strong, but it is far too slow to be worth the cost, as it's speed pretty much guarantees it will die to indirect fire. Panthers used to just be OP, but now they are OP and generally the only thing stopping half of the docs in the game from being steamrolled late game, so there is now an argument against nerfing them on top of the fanboys.

In saying all that, yeah, 90mm tanks need to be cheaper or get ALRS or something, they are currently a joke. The same can be said for 17pdr armed tanks, the gun is alright but it's reload is stupidly long and for how often it bounces when not using AP from ambush or stationary mode. You only get one shot because the panther will catch up to you before the next and your firefly/achilles dies in one shot.

[Walderschmidt]

Jacksons should definitely get an ALRS, at the very least.

Wald

[Warhawks97]

Jacksons should definitely get an ALRS, at the very least.

Wald

Not sure how thats gonna help at all. Both gonna snipe each other but with one difference: My Jackson dies right away, the target does not. So i am unsure how that would help except for this unit becoming another nice camper tool where you snipe everything: Mortar HT, Stugs etc. But the actual issue: Having cost effective counters to units like Panther in particular remains a open.

These things need to be cheap enough to fight along with shermans and not causing an end to their production draining your ressources pool to literally zero. And when in range hit hard. An ALRS doesnt help solving this issue. It will make the live for all others harder than it already is, but not for the units it is designed to counter.


The main issue is that Panthers can drive too often right into big AT and bounce the shit or take some damage but still cause havoc. I saw Panthers driving up AT nests and tanking shot for shot, killing vehicles and tanks and retreat. I saw Panthers being flanked by Jacks and still win the fight. And all that within just two days of playing. One Panther even had time to fire HE into my AT nest twice.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I tend to agree, Jackson’s are utter garbage. Same fo Hellcat, it cannot kill anything bigger than pz4 from the ambush since the flank speed and damage boost removal.

Firefly is extremely underwhelming as well, pretty often it struggles even against pz4 F.2. I don’t dare to charge on Panther or Tiger unless I have at least 3 Fireflies, which obviously almost never the case.

Cgar has a valid point though, I barely see Luft, Bk and Panzer Support docs playable if Panthers will get a hard nerf. At the same time, it feels quite unhealthy that the entire late game meta revolves around Panthers. Axis try to build as much Panthers as possible, whereas Allies throw all their tools to stop Panthers. The rest of the axis units are there just to support Panthers...

[Consti255]

I,d rather see a panther nerf and Tiger buff. The Tigers are just so underwhelming right now.
They are slow, often pen by a 76 AP shot and expenisve in fuel cost.
Also i would like to see the Tiger Ace gets moved to Blitz doc because in terms of timing it is so insane how fast you bump out the Panther ace which is just a complete terminator for its timing. It comes Vet 2 and wins normally every fight he runs into except a SP. I dont like the idea of a Panther ace at all in the current state of the Panther balance.
You get the ace pretty easy to vet 4. And at Vet 4 panthers starting the rapid fire..

In terms of the Jackson. Yes please. make it cheaper and maybe buff its reload time.An god PLS buff the accuracy of the Inf doc Jackson this thing keeps missing!! Also as mentionend the Hellcats are just so underwhelming i cant remember the last time ive seen a Hellcat tho... There costs are alright but there performans suck.
I would rather give them ALRS at Vet 2 so there is a reason to take them over a M10. They are squishy as hell (lol) and suffer just brutal from indirect fire + they come pretty late where normally arty is to a good amount already deployed from the enemy. Giving them a ability to get a good shot and finish the enemy Tiger or Stugs off could be a good addition. The lock behind Vet 2 prevents the Hellcat spam and long range shots. Getting a vet 2 Hellcat needs a fair ammount of makro and micro.

Besides the Pershing. Yes they are underwhelming but it is mainly due to the Panther beeing that good (as dicky said).
Pershing vs Tigers are normally a good even fight.
Giving the Panther a slide nerf could bring back the pershing. We have to be careful because buffing the pershing so it becomes the new Panther isnt the target we should aim for.
From what ive experiencing in the last games. Allies just lack an armored tool to fight a Panthers. Due to the AA changes it got even harder for allies to take out these cats. Long Toms suck, off map is alright. From what ive experienced the best and most reliable way is to immobilize it with zooks when you get the opportunity to flank it and finish it off with 25pounder or 105s.

The sovereignty just ends with the SP but this thing normally comes so late, that the Panther mass production already happend and caused his havok or even won the game.

[Krieger Blitzer]

For me, the 90mm tanks are fine given how early available the jackson is, and Pershing being avalable now as soon as Panther ACE & Tiger ACE, needless to say the amount of pressure Armor doc player can enforce in mid game using spam of E8s is quite overwhelming to most Axis players, which makes it hard to obtain Tigers/Panthers early enough as long as the Armor doc player is using his E8 & Combat Engineers combo in the right way.

[Consti255]

how can you say that the Jackson is early ?
Baracks, Weaopn center, Motorpool, Motorpool upgrade, Tankdepot, Supplyyard, Tank depot upgrade I, and CP wall which delays your Pershings ... plus massive Jackson cost.
This is LATE..
Axis can get a Panther ace way quicker. Farm CP with a CP less maultier and you are good to go.
Survive the mid game with stugs and wait out your ace. Its like 95% of the playstyle right now. Mine inculded.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Jackson in Armor doc requires no more than 4 CP (Pz4.H requires 4 CP in Blitz doc) and 5 CP in inf doc. If you rush directly to the jackson, you will obtain it probably even sooner than a late version Pz4 or as soon as a Hetzer. The cost of the jackson isn't that massive (price got reduced already) although the B1 variant is probably a bit expensive.. but so is the case with most Axis TDs anyway.

[Consti255]

I disagree on that to be fair.
Ive wrote the tech tree down which is a massive one. There is normally no way you can deploy a Jackson before a later P4 when you go right for the P4 H.
I dont know which price is massive if you say 700mp 110fuel is not, for a Tank destroyer without good armor. The Inf doc one cant even ambush and has the accuracy of a potatoe.
I canalways freak out when i see that number. This things makes you bleed out.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I dont know which price is massive if you say 700mp 110fuel is not, for a Tank destroyer without good armor.

That's the price of the B1, but the cost of the jackson in Armor doc is 600MP/75F only.

[Consti255]

The teching for the Jackson is still expenisve and takes time so saying it can be deployed early and before a P4 H is just not true.
Even when it is 600MP and 75F.

US Teching till Jackson is : 4CP, 1075MP 205f + 600MP 75f = 1675MP 280f for the first jackson. Besides you never spended fuel. 280 is just ridicoulus.

Axis teching till P4 H is : 4 CP 875 MP 130f + 550MP 65f = 1425MP 195f for the first P4 H.

its 250 MP more and wapping 95 fuel more for a Jackson.
Heavy ressource win for the P4.... also the P4 is available after 3 Buildings and 2 Upgrades and the Jackson after 5 Buildings and 2 upgrades.

A Panther D2 is 6CP 1450MP 230f + 680MP 110 Fuel = 2130MP 340f.
A Panther ACE is 8 CP 1450MP 305f + 1300MP = 2750 MP and only 305 fuel.

So a Ace only cost arround 1000MP 35 fuel more than a poppy Jackson. And i doint even bring up the B1 from Inf doc.

And now too everyones favorite the pershing: 8CP 1075MP 240f + 830MP 150f = 1905MP 390f! 390 f****** fuel.

So no. I dont take this one as valid argument that the 90mm are faster deployed as P4 or are woth it to go vs a Panther. ----> Panther nerf or Jackson/Pershing Buff.
That are my thoughts on this topic

[Warhawks97]

I think thwe issue is two sided. For one Axis does not have a propper tank for late game. They only have Panther or straight super heavy Tank. But between an F2 and Panther exists nothing.

The J´s and H Tank IV´s sit in the same docs as the Panthers and cost a lot of CP in one of them, soo...And TD´s? Overpriced just like the Jacksons.

So Panthers have to be good because the only other tank option is F2 Panther or weird TD´s. But at the same time they are insanely good and there is basically no cost effective counter. Once they are out you must be in an already superior position. If not, you lose unless the Panther player is a braindead fool or just super unlucky.