AB strafe price

[Krieger Blitzer]

just wanted to propose how the new cost should be:

Strafe run, from 125 ammo > to 185 ammo.
Strafe run FHQ patrol, from 150 ammo > to 220 ammo.

[Warhawks97]

Way too much.


I played many games now as, against and with AB. Even double AB many times.

But whenever the enemie team had like 2 AA tanks or emplacments on the field, every plane got shot down.
with that price you totally kill the AB doc.

And the german strafe is just as deadly, even better since it also acts like a henschel.

[Krieger Blitzer]

i think the new prices are absolutely justified, given how AB doc can benefit from supply drops providing 200 ammo.

[Warhawks97]

Lol, that way we can rather delete the supply drop and give it something more usefull.

Why giving a doc something when its taken away through the backdoor.


If you watched my recent games, you would have seen how the AA shred planes... i played games vs double AB bc its hyped and the aa shot everything down.


You pay 4 or 5 CP just for strafe and supply drop.... and you have nothing else. Your enemie meanwhile gets some 0 CP AA and kills you with 4 CP medium tanks and you dont even have an M10.



The strafes arent OP and the AA does a pretty good job basically.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Even if AA is effective, the current performance of the strafe run is extremely OP at 125 ammo.. airstrikes should not be spammable, and the supply drops are mainly there to help AB doc provide weapon upgrades for their troops, not to spam airstrikes the entire game.

There is literally no point in deploying any mortar half-tracks now.. or any elite inf at all. Thanks to the ridiculous AB strafe!

[Mantis]

Lol, that way we can rather delete the supply drop and give it something more usefull.

Why giving a doc something when its taken away through the backdoor.


If you watched my recent games, you would have seen how the AA shred planes... i played games vs double AB bc its hyped and the aa shot everything down.


You pay 4 or 5 CP just for strafe and supply drop.... and you have nothing else. Your enemie meanwhile gets some 0 CP AA and kills you with 4 CP medium tanks and you dont even have an M10.



The strafes arent OP and the AA does a pretty good job basically.

LOL you.

[Warhawks97]

Even if AA is effective, the current performance of the strafe run is extremely OP at 125 ammo.. airstrikes should not be spammable, and the supply drops are mainly there to help AB doc provide weapon upgrades for their troops, not to spam airstrikes the entire game.

There is literally no point in deploying any mortar half-tracks now.. or any elite inf at all. Thanks to the ridiculous AB strafe!

and quite the same way i abused Luftwaffe strafes to take down Halftracks accross the map


And later on i just pay like 95 or 85 ammo. Fuel is no issue.


so where is the difference between them that one should cost 100 ammo more!?


Besides that, i barely deploy mortar HT´s anyway... they just die to artillery anyway which comes at quite the same time or spend most of the time being repaired anyway.

LOL you.

Epic Answer!

[Krieger Blitzer]

Even if AA is effective, the current performance of the strafe run is extremely OP at 125 ammo.. airstrikes should not be spammable, and the supply drops are mainly there to help AB doc provide weapon upgrades for their troops, not to spam airstrikes the entire game.

There is literally no point in deploying any mortar half-tracks now.. or any elite inf at all. Thanks to the ridiculous AB strafe!

so where is the difference between them that one should cost 100 ammo more!?

The difference is the ammo supply drops.. this makes the AB strafe spammable, unlike the Luft one.

[Warhawks97]

dude.... luft doesnt need as much ammo... their reg 5 with ambush is good enough sometimes but 101st is totally lost without.


also it takes in total 4 CP or more just to have the drop and a strafe.... and you are left without any counter to tanks except heavy AT gun which is crap due to all the arty.




I get 200 ammo for 200 MP... but i would pay 100 ammo more for a strafe than luft does. Looks really fair... and unlike luft i dont have any hard hitting weapon besides strafes when it comes to anti tank power.




There is a scenario that i face often and which i do by myself whenever i play AB or luft doc.

I drop down on an important point, try to cap it and cause some trouble or hold out for reinforcments. The difference is that as Luft doc i lay immediatly an ambush with my MP40´s and schreck and call in air support for low ammo and later fuel cost and thats quite effective.

As AB i do the same but all i can do is to hide out behind some cover with my silly carabines. Sometimes the time is not enough to buy the weapons. So, i get frequently overruned by vehicles and mostly cheap volksgren and vsturm inf with their MP 40... in my last match they rushed me and my carabines just killed 4 men of the volks before being whiped by the horde.

If i would have to pay now 185 ammo for every single strafe, things would become more desastrous, ammo drop or not.
And i would have to make the calculation to buy weapons which in most cases isnt worth it.

Bottom line: With luft drop i can already cause enough havoc just by ambushing enemies and on top calling in deadly airstrikes. AB doesnt make any trouble on the ground and if you cut down their air support, they wont make any trouble at all.


Thing is: Dont use expensive stuff vs AB. Just spam some crap units with MP 40, get tanks, perhaps an aa unit and its all fine.

in the current state of the game i dont get expensive units as axis at all. Mostly just volks and cheap tanks. The strafes on me doesnt really hurt army that much.

I admit that PE does not have that cheap option, but CW does also not have cheap options. Thus PE suffers from US strafes, CW from PE strafes.

[Krieger Blitzer]

None of this justify how the AB strafe should be spammable.

i would rather improve AB inf and generally improve AB doc AT capabilities than just giving them such a ridiculous insta one-click kill ability that is spammed every 4 minutes in the game.

[Warhawks97]

Why spammable? The cooldown of airstrikes is quite the same. As luft i called the strafe every two or three mins.

I dont see where the issue is. Luft is also not supposed to spam raids and still its super easy with luft once they cost fuel and ammo.

[mofetagalactica]

My only suggestion on this is just to make it less wider as it was before, but being as deadly as it is atm.

I guess he says "spammable"' 'cause it dosn't really matter how much you manage your ammo / ammo income, you're in a mindset more like "meh i will get ammo anyway, lets kill that single solitary unit in the middle of nowhere even if its not being a treath atm"

Meanwhile as luft you have to have some kind of control over your ammo income if you want to fully use every upgrade/hability.

The supply drops for luft could use a revision/rework for example they're stupidly ammo expensive and weirdly placed, should be an independent unlock to start with.

[MarKr]

My only suggestion on this is just to make it less wider as it was before, but being as deadly as it is atm.

I guess he says "spammable"' 'cause it dosn't really matter how much you manage your ammo / ammo income, you're in a mindset more like "meh i will get ammo anyway, lets kill that single solitary unit in the middle of nowhere even if its not being a treath atm"

1) The strikes are possible to shoot down (and will be even more so in the next update).
2) It will be very easy to avoid it with the previous "long but narrow" AoE

If you put together these two points, the straffe will be pretty crappy again. I still have to see a replay (apart from the one Hawks provided) where AAs were used effectively (so correct positioning, active AA mode...) and the AB STILL shreded everything with straffe.

Meanwhile as luft you have to have some kind of control over your ammo income if you want to fully use every upgrade/hability.

The upgrades of Luft are also stronger. FG42, scoped G43, LMG... all these weapons are stronger than Garands, Johnsons or Thompsons. So Luft needs to make decision where to invest their ammo - equip infantry but have less ammo for airstrikes or use airstrikes at the expense of infantry. AB can have ammo for both but the weapons are less effective and so you need to also have the support of airstrikes. Furthermore, Luft has Panthers that can kill enemy tanks while AB only has Shermans and so they need to rely on AT strike to kill enemy heavy tanks so they will always have higher ammo consumption and that is why they have the resource trade (MP for ammo).

The supply drops for luft could use a revision/rework for example they're stupidly ammo expensive and weirdly placed, should be an independent unlock to start with.

Can you make a separate topic for this, if you have some idea how the costs should change, please, list it there too.

[Krieger Blitzer]

https://youtu.be/fHl5qp8CquY?t=3597

This game i used Wirbelwind & activated my base AA into AA mode, but i couldn't shoot down a single airplane.

Also, again.. in my opinion even with effective AA, the AB strafe is way too cheap for the current performance.
it's more powerful than the Luft one and is much cheaper considering ammo supply drops...

And the patrol is ridiculously OP btw, and costs only 150 ammo!!!! Could the Luft doc get Strafe patrol too?

[MarKr]

And here we go again with "AB has something so Luft should have it too..."

Yeah, Luft can get the patrol too, but in that case, can AB get "aiming" AT strike, Pershing, a 360° auto-rotating 90mm AT gun (or at least "captured 88mm"), adjusted Johnsons so that they act like FG42 and an option to get 5 of them per squad, and adjusted M1 Garands that perform similarly to scoped G43s? I mean...if you want to go with this "comparison game", shouldn't you go both ways?

EDIT:
I don't have time right now to watch an hour-long game but when it opened at the time it is linked to, the Wirble was NOT in AA mode. In mobile mode you would need about 4 of them to reliably take down a plane. If your oponent knew what he was doing, he didn't send planes on such a trajectory to activate the base AAs, so no wonder they didn't do much either.

[Krieger Blitzer]

That logic was actually a counter argument to Hawks saying that AB strafe is fine because Luft strafe is strong as well.
it's not an argument i used on my end...

[CGarr]

That logic was actually a counter argument to Hawks saying that AB strafe is fine because Luft strafe is strong as well.
it's not an argument i used on my end...

MarKr's point still stands, if you want to nerf a strafe on a doctrine that is pretty much dependent on strafes (for luft they are a bonus, for AB they are a necessity), you'd have to compensate by making their ground presence stronger.

Why make another thread with a focus on the cost, as if the question of whether or not the strafe is actually OP has been answered already? In the other threads concerning the topic, there is a lot more support for keeping the strafe as is or possibly just tweaking the performance than there is for changing the cost, so you make a new one to bring eyes away from those threads and make it look like everybody already came to agreement on the strafe being OP?

[Mantis]

If the only solution how to stop OP strafe is camping with more AA, is not good for gameplay. I do not prefer this camping strategy. Is it low cost, deadly and neverending with ammo supply drop. Is it nonsense. I will repeat again - but this need any change. Tigar has reasonable opinions.

[Krieger Blitzer]

@CGAR

The current AB doc game-play is dumb.. you don't even need AB paratroopers at all actually.. just spam AA emplacements early in the game at key points to hinder the opponent.. then use strafe run when he tries to use mortar half-tracks or whenever he uses inf. A bit later, go for an early HE Sherman & gg.

I will be publishing a 2v2 game tomorrow against Kwok where i exactly did this.. so what kind of a competitive game-play is that?? it's very lame.

You say the doctrine is dependent on Strafe.. but here comes the question, why does it have to be so?
Here is the problem.. we seem to justify the existence of silly stuff, instead of actually improving the doctrine on other aspects.

If the doc is completely relying on Strafes.. then it simply shouldn't. That's a doctrinal structure failure to say the least... We should rather tweak down the Strafes to a more acceptable standard, while improving the doc elsewhere on areas where it lacks.. such as removing limits on Hellcats, and improving AB inf, etc. And not just give them a completely OP strafe claiming it's there in order to compensate with the doctrine weak points!!!! Why not just fix the weak points then??? Else, game-play would be just dumb.

That's my viewpoint.
I will react to your posts on other topics later.

[Warhawks97]

As Luft I also don't use infantry or only for sabotage and light support. But for the most part I rely on Wirbelwind, puma with pak 40 and airstrikes. The earlier you unlock them the more effective they are because aa is not fully build up and every loss one that hurts.

That and some grens with g43 and your enemie will need lots of arty to get through while you just wait for panthers or start sabotaging points when you got the means for it.
And since in teamfights all of your mates spam arty anyway its not a big deal to have none.


@mantis. Axis is heavy camp anyways. Doesn't matter if you play AB or not. Camp, arty, tank spam, heavy tanks.

Effective air strikes help prevent in the early game to prevent this from happening.

But in the long run axis camp anyway. In all games I played the past days axis camped. Even my own team forced me to camp. Even when I successfully rushed the map as PE... My team just halted at about half the map and build tons of defenses as if they prepare for the battle of kursk..... Just because our enemies have just one greyhound and one rifle squad left basically......you camp, no matter what. I could even shout at my team to move their asses, showing them that the map is empty my driving around with a krad. But nope... They must build more defenses and arty.

So don't fucking tell me airstrikes force a camp game.... Axis always camp, no matter what.

[MarKr]

And once the AA emplacements will not be buildable by basic engineers, how will that strategy work? AB engineers are only available from FHQ or from the HQ squad so the emplacements will technically be locked behind CP (or alternatively behind extra MP).

How exactly will unlimited Hellcats help you against enemy infantry?

The doctrine doesn't completely rely on Straffes but relies on them to a certain degree. In AB doctrine the usage of airstrikes is not a "bonus", it is something you are meant to use as a core functionality of the doctrine. This is also how the AB differs from RAF and Luft because what is the point of having 3 doctrines that play more or less the same? We just don't want these three to be reskinned versions of each other so no, AB won't get jackson/Pershing (a.k.a RAF's Firefly and Luft's Panther), AB won't get rambo-level infantry (a.k.a. Luft and RAF infantry). Unlimited Hellcats are planned for the next update but a bunch of Hellcats will not help you against all the stuff that Axis can throw at you.

And to be honest, this still feels a lot like "I know I can counter the planes with AA but I just don't want to use the Opel/20mm Puma/Gepard/Wirble/Ostwind, because....because I don't want to.". Yes, it is extra micro but this extra micro can negate 80% of your oponent's planes (if the AA is used correctly) - that means 80% of those airstrikes are literally wasted ammo and you can make your opponent waste all that ammo by getting a single unit.
The counters ARE there, if players DECIDE not to use them it is their problem and not a ballance issue. It is same as saying that "Jagdtiger is OP because it kills all my tanks and infantry. I know I can immobilize/destroy it with airstrikes and arty but I don't want to use that so JT is OP!"

[Mantis]

MarKr: Yes, nazi Germany weapons was OP in real. Only you make them weaker than they ever were. And dont stop booooooost more allies Well done! Good work!

[MarKr]

Mantis: You really want to start talking about realism? Alright...
By the time BK mod takes place, Luftwaffe had basically no planes anymore and Allies had an absolute air superiority. In that time, Allies actually killed most tanks with their planes. So, if you wanna go with realism, we should remove planes from Luft and make allies planes cheaper and lower cooldowns, right? Also, Axis didn't have enough fuel to properly supply their tanks...so all Axis fuel income should be lower than allies. What else....Oh yeah, Axis heavy tanks often suffered from technical issues (engine breaks mainly) because of maintainance problems, so I guess we should apply a random chance for Tigers, KTs, Elephants and JTs to get "damaged engine" whenever they move.

Oh yeah, REALISM BABY!

Do you still want to use "realism" as a balance argument?

[Mantis]

Markr: Allies technic was 100%, without any engine or construction damage, i understand. This is for allies web. I will not write here anymore. Merry Christmas for everyone!

[Warhawks97]

Mantis: You really want to start talking about realism? Alright...
By the time BK mod takes place, Luftwaffe had basically no planes anymore and Allies had an absolute air superiority. In that time, Allies actually killed most tanks with their planes. So, if you wanna go with realism, we should remove planes from Luft and make allies planes cheaper and lower cooldowns, right? Also, Axis didn't have enough fuel to properly supply their tanks...so all Axis fuel income should be lower than allies. What else....Oh yeah, Axis heavy tanks often suffered from technical issues (engine breaks mainly) because of maintainance problems, so I guess we should apply a random chance for Tigers, KTs, Elephants and JTs to get "damaged engine" whenever they move.

Oh yeah, REALISM BABY!

Do you still want to use "realism" as a balance argument?

only few were "killed" by planes. But it was the supply chains that got disruppted and tanks had to stay in cover or took damage that caused an abandonment.

But yeah. Luftwaffe was dead and the henschel with 75 mm, The B3 version, existed only 25 times.

Markr: Allies technic was 100%, without any engine or construction damage, i understand. This is for allies web. I will not write here anymore. Merry Christmas for everyone!

Well... Axis prefered raw power later: Armor and gun.

US in particular prefered endurance, ergonimics for the crews, long livitiy (their 76 gun could fire 10 times as many shells as 17 pdr or panther gun before being worn out), easy supply and maintanace... their logistics was the biggest the world had ever seen (till this day) and in their repair shops were so full with spare parts that you could build entire new tanks. Axis didnt even build spare parts or only very few. So whenever a supply train came the engineers fought each other to get what they need for their tanks.

The US were the only that made an extensive endurance test with their shermans before sending them into battle. No other faction did that. Cromwells, T34, Panthers (at least early) required huge maintanance after just like 200 km or 300.


Axis lost more tanks to self destruction and abandonment than to anything else.



I just hald talks with some guys last night about ww2 games and realism. Armor and gun effectivness can be easily set to "realism". Logistics and other stuff not so much. Thats why panthers are always such crazy weapons.