This is how AB rocks!

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PanzarFather
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This is how AB rocks!

Post by PanzarFather »

As I have stated many times before.
AB is one of the strongest American doctrines and here is the reasons why:

Reason 1: AB can spot anywhere on the map, at any time and it doesn't matter if axis has AA settlements in the area. AB can drop spotters and see the area for a short period of time anyway. This is a huge advantage if teammates who play an artillery-doctrine need to know what's in the area, or the AB-player to know where to shoot with his Airborne 75mm M1A1 Pack Howitzer.
This is something luftwaffe can't.

Reason 2: AB Strafing Run is very powerful and can take down halftracks and lots of infantry on one strafe.
Luftwaffes strafing is not as powerful.

Reason 3: AB can drop 200 munition later in the game when unlocking that abillity, and it cost only 200 manpower, that is very cheap.
This means that AB can use air-abillities pretty often in mid and late-game.
This is something that Luftwaffe can't do.

Reason 4: AB has a mobile howitzer (The Airborne 75mm M1A1 Pack Howitzer) to counter all kinds of axis-camping, at the same time AB is an air-doctine, it also have strong artillery.
In comparison, Luftwaffe can only make the LeIG-18 Infantry Gun, but it has to be Called-in by Gebirgsjaeger in late game. To my experience, the LeIG isn't that destructive against settlements, it is mostly an anti-infantry artillery to shoot small accurate shots at infantries standing still at a distance.

Reason 5: ABs P-47 Fighter-Bomber Patrol can destroy heavy axis tanks like butter AND it can destroy settlements.
Luftwaffe has a good anti-tank air-strike too called Henschel "PanzerKnacker" Support, and it has it's qualities and downsides, just as the P-47 Fighter-Bomber has. But the P-47 is very good and is very effective against heavy axis tanks.

Reason 6: 82nd Airborne Rangers is extremly powerful and could counter Panthers pretty good. It depends on the terrain though, on open fields it's allways hard to counter any tank, but if the 82nd Airborne Rangers are behind green or yellow cover in a more rough forest-like environment, the 82nd rangers are very effective against Panthers.
Luftwaffe has the Fallskirmjägers, but the 82nd Rangers can have two bazookas, Luftwaffe only ONE Panzerschreck.

Reason 7: AB can drop the Airborne M5 L/50 76mm AT Gun anywhere on the map. This is a HUGE advantage since all ATs are slow to bring to the map if you produce them from your base.

Overall, AB is quick and cunning, it can abuse it's artillery and airstrikes a lot and it can provide the player with good units.

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CGarr
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Re: This is how AB rocks!

Post by CGarr »

Most people that are complaining about AB being bad are mainly complaining about it's reliance on sitting behind AT guns and spamming indirect fire (a playstyle shared by 4 of the 5 other allied docs), not that it is downright useless. There are significantly better options available when picking a doc, and AB is probably the worst choice in most scenarios, but it can hold out for a little while and does reasonably well against Axis players who focus on using inf rather than tanks. That being said, every point you listed here is either a bad comparison or is currently being addressed by the devs prior to this post being made. I'll go over them one by one and then give some examples of where AB is overperforming or weak, so that we can try and steer the doc in the right direction.

===============================================================================================================================

Your list

1. Both have a 50 muni recon plane that is now extremely hard to shoot down, much more so than the strafes (by design so that people don't use it as a kamikaze plane). Said plane covers a much wider area, and 50 muni is a lot cheaper than 150 MP. If the player doesn't have 50 muni to choke up for a recon plane, they also probably don't have enough muni to do anything after calling said recon plane.

2. The luft strafe has a 20mm that actually targets vehicles independently of the plane's MG strafe IIRC. This should put them on even ground in terms of performance against inf and vehicles. I'm pretty sure both airstrikes are also currently being tweaked due to pretty much everyone complaining about their effectiveness (or lack of). Keep in mind that luft and RAF's airstrikes are intentionally weaker than AB's because AB has a much tougher time in direct combat. Their anti-inf capabilities are pretty much entirely dependent on the spam of support inf (MG's, snipers, mortars) that can easily be overrun/flanked. 101st and 82nd are decent if you can get up close, but good luck with that against a competent Axis player. As far as AT, AB does well against most heavies, but panthers and mediums are fast enough to effectively kite AB inf and HE them or hose them with roof MG's before they can fire their bazookas.

3. One allied doc that is pretty much entirely reliant on indirect fire for dealing with heavies has a somewhat OP resource trade? Wow, how can Axis compete? They only have 3 docs that can do the same (with less micro), on top of generally not having to worry about late game heavies since literally every Axis doc has access to extremely potent AT units. You're 100% right, I don't see how Axis can compete! /s

Jokes aside, personally I kind of agree with you on this one in the sense that I don't like the resource trades, but I'd rather see nobody get these trades. The only one that makes sense is Blitz doc's MP trade, and I'm pretty sure that one is broken. It's meant to frontload your manpower income by giving you a ton right at that moment in exchange for completely cutting off your MP income for the next few mins to compensate, but I'm fairly certain it only does the first part.

4. The pack howitzer and leig have similar arty performance, or at least should. I haven't checked in Corsix, but the issue was discussed in detail in this thread ( viewtopic.php?f=27&t=3985&start=25 ), both perform pretty well against inf and emplacements in my experience. The leig can also camo and direct-fire, allowing it to defend itself relatively well for an arty unit. The pack howitzer has no defense capabilities. The availability for the leig was weird, but again, I'm pretty sure it's either being addressed currently or already has been addressed. I don't use it much since Luft inf, panthers, and a mortar HT tend to be enough to deal with most threats. Both of these units also incur muni upkeep, so you're probably better off just using airstrikes in both docs.

5. Not sure when the last time you played AB was, but the bomber patrol was replaced by a solo rocket strafe. Said strafe often struggles to kill heavies even with perfect aim, and it is very easy to dodge. I seriously never understood why people complain about the rocket strafe. Sure, it has the potential to kill any tank, but you can actually dodge it. The Henschells automatically aim at any tanks in the flight path, effectively scoring guaranteed hits. They often get crits as well, making it easy to follow up with a panther and just finish off whatever you strafed. This doesn't even account for the fact that strafes in general can be shot down, thereby negating AB's main tool for dealing with heavies. AB does not have an effective tank to follow up with, and AB inf aren't exactly hard to scare away so that you can repair. Other Axis docs also have access to even more potent one-click-kill abilities, like the 280mm rocket strike or the JP kill shot ability. See this thread:
( viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4013 )

6. It genuinely blows my mind that people lose full health panthers to AB inf. Back up and let your other units mow them down, they can't effectively defend themselves against inf if they are running around with a bunch rocket launchers. Even their best weapon (thompson) loses to luft inf at range, and they can't crawl to close the distance. The panther can also HE them before they get their shots off. An AB player rushing your tanks with inf is just feeding you vet. Fallschrimjagers only get 1 shreck because they don't need 2 when they can rely on a panther to come finish off whatever they can't kill.

7. Why would an Axis player need to airdrop AT guns when they can just send a tank or TD in to deal with allied armor? Every Axis doc has a heavy tank or TD that can easily deal with an SP, nevermind anything smaller. Blitz can afford to just bumrush it with panthers, luft can do so while also calling henschells to damage it beforehand, defense has the elefant and all sorts of other heavy AT, propaganda has KT's and faust spam, SE has a nashorn, and panzer support has the jagdpanther.

Meanwhile, lets look at the reverse scenario with allies having to deal with a KT/jagdpanther/elefant. AB/RAF have to pray to god the rocket strike doesn't get shot down and actually does it's job, and inf/RE/arty have to sit behind emplacements and kill it with indirect fire (which takes long enough that the axis player will probably be able to buy another by that point). Armor doc is the only doc that isn't stuck sitting behind AT guns.

Instead of just complaining about how the AT guns alone are "OP", people should focus on the lack of other options in most allied docs being the driving factor for their reliance on said "OP" AT guns. If docs have another viable unit, the AT guns could be nerfed (if it's even needed, I've never had a problem dealing with 76mm guns or 17 pdrs).

=============================================================================================================================

Actual issues with AB (and possible solutions)

1. 50 cal strafe: I personally don't have much of an issue with it and would rather see the MG's on the luft strafe receive a similar buff. Alternatively, both could be changed to have a lasting suppression effect on inf, maybe with multiple passes to keep it going. The units suppressed should not be able to retreat for a few seconds (maybe 5, idk), as being able to retreat after it hits would kinda render the strafe a waste, and that'd be a lot of muni to waste. A lasting stun effect on tanks would also make sense if it is changed in this way, as it would create a synergy with the rocket strike, thereby negating the issues with the rocket strike, at the cost of a massive muni investment.

This would encourage the use of the strafes as a support tool so you can use other abilities or units to mop up. They would still retain their deadliness against light vehicles, with the second pass even amplifying it (and therefore addressing the issue with the 20mm's on the luft strafe). Inf would no longer just melt when strafed, but would still be in danger if the ability is used in conjunction with other units, justifying cost.

2. MP -> MU trade: Should be nerfed in some way, or Luft's support weapon crates should cost the same (MP instead of MU) and give the same amount of muni.

3. Dedicated airborne AT inf: AB probably isn't getting a 90mm armed tank anytime soon, and 76mm's are only available on extremely squishy platforms for AB doc (shermans, the 76mm field gun, and US TD's are all generally considered lacking in durability, understandably). As such AB (and realistically, Luft, Blitz, and RAF docs as well) should get a special dedicated 4 man AT inf unit to match their theme (RAF already has one in the glider, the luft and AB ones can paradrop into battle, the blitz one can crawl) armed with 2 AT launchers (bazookas or shrecks). Bazookas/shrecks should then no longer be available as an upgrade or weapon drop for the normal doctrinal inf in these doctrines (82nd, SAS, storms, fallschrimjagers).

The generic CP upgrades that improve these doctrines' doctrinal inf should also make said AT squads "experienced tank hunters better who have a good understanding of armor weakpoints", granting them 50% greater pen with their bazookas/shrecks while increasing their aim time by 50%. This gives them near-guaranteed pen on anything, but their firerate is lower and you don't have a shit ton of heavy AT equipped inf running around anymore, so it's reasonably counterable. PIAT's and recoilless rifles are pretty much auxiliary AT weapons at this point, they're good for crits but they don't do solid damage like bazookas/shrecks. That is why they would not be given to said AT squads (the AT commandos should get bazookas instead of PIATs, with the PIAT possibly becoming an upgrade for the Boys light AT commando.

4. Crawling for 82nd: Seeing as how the 82nd would no longer have an AT weapon and would instead just have their thompsons and nades/satchels, they would become a dedicated anti inf/emplacement squad, so letting them crawl would make perfect sense.

These 4 fixes address the 2 OP things about AB and the 2 weakpoints that make the doc so aids to play. Additional counter-nerfs to AB could also come with these 4 changes if necessary, although I think I gave a sufficient counter-nerf for each buff I suggested. Other ideas could also work, this is more just me listing the main issues with AB and how I'd personally approach fixing them.

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MarKr
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Re: This is how AB rocks!

Post by MarKr »

CGarr wrote:
17 Dec 2020, 02:18
1. 50 cal strafe: I personally don't have much of an issue with it and would rather see the MG's on the luft strafe receive a similar buff.
I see in this a similar "problem" as you wrote in your response to Panzerfather - both doctrines have different strengths with different units. AB infantry lacks pure anti-infantry strength, so it compensates with strong straffe run. Luft infantry in general doesn't lack that anti-infatry killing power so the straffe is there more for situations when you run into more infantry than you have, so you send the straffe, kill some soldiers with it and the rest you can handle with your own infantry. Or when your opponent starts capping some point and you don't have units nearby to stop them etc.

So I don't think that saying "AB has stronger straffe than Luft, so they should be made the same (or more similar)" is a good idea because the straffes are not the ONLY thing the doctrine can use. It should be viewed more in context of other options and units the doctrine has.
CGarr wrote:
17 Dec 2020, 02:18
2. MP -> MU trade: Should be nerfed in some way, or Luft's support weapon crates should cost the same (MP instead of MU) and give the same amount of muni.
I am against giving Luft the ability to get ammo from crates. Luft can already lower ammo the costs of planes by using excess fuel as part of the activation cost (so that saves some ammo with each use).
CGarr wrote:
17 Dec 2020, 02:18
The only one that makes sense is Blitz doc's MP trade, and I'm pretty sure that one is broken. It's meant to frontload your manpower income by giving you a ton right at that moment in exchange for completely cutting off your MP income for the next few mins to compensate, but I'm fairly certain it only does the first part.
The ability gives you MP but cuts your MP income to half for the next 3 minutes (I think). It halved your MP income even back in vCoH.
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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: This is how AB rocks!

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Briefly, here is what i think about AB doc...

# What should be done:
- unlimited Hellcats.
- More expensive Strafe run (including FHQ patrol), either more ammo cost or just add fuel cost.
- 82nd should have passive camo.
- AB engineers unlocked with 101st, available on the doctrinal menu panel.. just like Luft Pios.
- Quad AA emplacement restricted to be accessible via AB engineers only.

# Things i am against:
- Sabotage for AB troops.
- Flame nades returning to 101st.
- Crawling for any AB inf, unless Stormtroops are allowed to crawl with Shrecks.

That's all.

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CGarr
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Re: This is how AB rocks!

Post by CGarr »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
17 Dec 2020, 13:48
Briefly, here is what i think about AB doc...

# What should be done:
- unlimited Hellcats.
- More expensive Strafe run (including FHQ patrol), either more ammo cost or just add fuel cost.
- 82nd should have passive camo.
- AB engineers unlocked with 101st, available on the doctrinal menu panel.. just like Luft Pios.
- Quad AA emplacement restricted to be accessible via AB engineers only.

# Things i am against:
- Sabotage for AB troops.
- Flame nades returning to 101st.
- Crawling for any AB inf, unless Stormtroops are allowed to crawl with Shrecks.

That's all.
1. Forgot that one, agreed.
2. Doesn't seem as fun as my suggestion, but its fair. Partially agree.
3. Disagree, I'd rather they be able to crawl and lose their bazookas. Passive camo wouldn't really add anything to them in terms of function, its just a buff that encourages a defensive playstyle. Crawling gives them more functionality as an offensive unit, especially against emplacements. I suggested removing the bazookas from 82nd as a compensating change. Said bazookas would instead be found on a seperate para AT squad.
4 and 5. God yes, fuck quad AA emplacement spam. Definitely not OP, but its obnoxious as all hell to play against.

6. Agreed, they're cheap and capable of holding their own in some fights, so sabotage would probably be overkill.
7. Now that the AB MG squad is a beast, somewhat agree, although I don't feel too strongly either way.
8. I'm assuming you prob didn't have time to read the full post, but I actually suggested that blitz would get a separate stormtrooper AT squad that can crawl with 2 Shrecks. Storms would lose their bazookas to compensate. Unless you have regularly 5+ storm squads running around with shrecks, this would pretty much just be a buff, as the storm squads would be able to better focus on their anti inf role, while the AT squad murders armor.

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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: This is how AB rocks!

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Good seeing most points are agreed on, and i think those points mentioned are pretty much the common ground that everybody approves for AB right now, according to various topics concerning the matter.
CGarr wrote:
18 Dec 2020, 00:26
3. Disagree, I'd rather they be able to crawl and lose their bazookas. Passive camo wouldn't really add anything to them in terms of function, its just a buff that encourages a defensive playstyle. Crawling gives them more functionality as an offensive unit, especially against emplacements. I suggested removing the bazookas from 82nd as a compensating change. Said bazookas would instead be found on a seperate para AT squad.
There is 1 thing though.. i don't exactly mind 82nd to crawl to be more precise, but here is the catch; did you notice how not a single paratrooper unit in the game (which can reinforce from the air) is able to crawl ever?

Units that can reinforce from air:
- SAS
- FJR - Luft Pios
- AB squads

Have you ever seen any of these units being able to crawl? I think it's not possible for any of these units to crawl from a game engine point of view.. because (as far as i'm concerned) there is a glitch that occurs when reinforcing units from air while in crawl mode.

Marine Commandos are technically paratroopers, but they don't reinforce from the air.. thus, they can crawl.

That's my take on this.

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Warhawks97
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Re: This is how AB rocks!

Post by Warhawks97 »

They will crawl from air to the ground and stay invisible. :lol:

Jokes aside, i also think it causes issues when you crawl and try to reinforce from the air. Or they might drop down invisible as well. Either way, it either causes issues or will behave stupid probably.
Build more AA Walderschmidt

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MarKr
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Re: This is how AB rocks!

Post by MarKr »

I am pretty sure I could find a solution so that they won't parachute "ninja style".
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PanzarFather
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Re: This is how AB rocks!

Post by PanzarFather »

Point is, AB is very strong, even stronger than Luftwaffe in general, so there is no reason to claim otherwise.

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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: This is how AB rocks!

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

MarKr wrote:
18 Dec 2020, 10:31
I am pretty sure I could find a solution so that they won't parachute "ninja style".
No need anyways.. let's not have any paratroopers (which can be air-dropped anywhere on the map) being able to crawl as well. Otherwise, we would start seeing people demand the same for FJR & SAS, etc.

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