leig 18 75mm gun

[Warhawks97]

In a game that i just played i noticed that this thing is a real "Vehicle killing Ninja".

For quite some time i didnt know what caused the death of many of my HT´s. I got a under attack message but at this point it was already too late.

I first suspected cheating, then some hidden AT squads untill in noticed leig 18´s shooting all the time.

They always two-shoted vehicles with sniping accuracy and also killed several squads outright. There was, unlike heavy arty does, no noise or heavy explosion that instantly tells you that arty is coming at you. When they hit tanks or vehicles there is no real explosion at all except as if an HE shell hits your tank.


I checked corsix and figured out that every arty has a 0.75 damage modifer vs tanks and vehicles. But this thing has a 1.5 damage modifier against vehicles.


To sum all issues up:
It does not give a warning that shots are coming at you like most arty does. Or only a very silent one.
It does fires its barrage quick.
It does have sniping accuracy
It does two-shot vehicles due to its super high damage.
Seems to have a short cooldown. A single one could deny a point and shooting my vehicles. The cooldown was shorter than my squad took to take a small ammo point.

AT guns, mortars and Mortar HT and AT HT are quickly taken out by it.


On top of that it can ambush and shoot directly, also insta whiping inf.



That doesnt seem right to me.

[Walderschmidt]

What is it’s damage?

Wald

[Warhawks97]

What is it’s damage?

Wald

I think it was 202 on direct hit on vehicles. The US 75 mm pack in comparison 112 or so. I left my pc but that's roughly what I remember. All arty loses 25% damage vs tanks and vehicles. This one gets 50% added.

[Walderschmidt]

What is it’s damage?

Wald

I think it was 202 on direct hit on vehicles. The US 75 mm pack in comparison 112 or so. I left my pc but that's roughly what I remember. All arty loses 25% damage vs tanks and vehicles. This one gets 50% added.

So let’s see if I understand this correctly.

Leig does 134 damage to vehicles with a modifier of x1.5 to make it 202 damage on a direct hit.

75mm pack howitzer does 149 damage to vehicles with a modifier of x.75 to make it 112 damage on a direct hit.

Is that what you’re telling me?

Wald

[Warhawks97]

90x1.5x1.5.. thats the calculation. 90 is base damage, 1.5 for direct hit and 1.5 for the damage bonus in the TT.

The 75 mm pack howitzer has 100x1.5x0.75.

Artillery gets bonus damage on direct hit but has damage reduced by 25% against vehicles and tanks.

[Walderschmidt]

Got it.

My guess would be dev oversight or maybe it was intended given how it was a reward unit whereas the 75mm pack howitzer was not.

Wald

[PanzarFather]

Don’t f***ing touch the LeiG!

[Warhawks97]

Got it.

My guess would be dev oversight or maybe it was intended given how it was a reward unit whereas the 75mm pack howitzer was not.

Wald

Generally we had a "arty standardisation" many patches ago in which artillery received a 25% damage reduction vs vehicles and tanks in exchange for 50-80% more damage when the shell made a direct hit. This was in order to prevent a "mass extinction" of vehicles and tanks by pure arty. Before that only axis tanks and vehicles had the luxury of taking way less damage from arty. This was applied to all tanks and vehicles and for every arty in game.

So its more an oversight most likely when arty got standardized. This thing can ambush and fire directly at targets so i think there is little need for a small 75 mm arty to be the top anti vehicle sniper arty. The artillery ability is kind of an "extra ability" which alone makes this unit super unique.

[CGarr]

Don’t f***ing touch the LeiG!

Great addition to the discussion, your insight was vital, thank you.

I personally like the leig having some AT capability, but I was also personally against the nerf to arty damage against tanks, and ever since the change I've watched arty struggle to kill even damaged P4's and shermans with 105mm barrages. Maybe I'm just super unlucky though. Either way, I'd rather see direct fire HE and small arty (leig, 88 indirect fire, 25 pdrs normal barrages, heavy mortars, pack howi) get a buff against armor, at least for direct hits. A big ass explosion directly on the tank would probably suck balls for the crew. If it was possible, a lengthy stun (7-10 seconds) effect on direct hits to tanks with arty or HE could also be an interesting addition.

[Warhawks97]

Don’t f***ing touch the LeiG!

Great addition to the discussion, your insight was vital, thank you.

I personally like the leig having some AT capability, but I was also personally against the nerf to arty damage against tanks, and ever since the change I've watched arty struggle to kill even damaged P4's and shermans with 105mm barrages. Maybe I'm just super unlucky though. Either way, I'd rather see direct fire HE and small arty (leig, 88 indirect fire, 25 pdrs normal barrages, heavy mortars, pack howi) get a buff against armor, at least for direct hits. A big ass explosion directly on the tank would probably suck balls for the crew. If it was possible, a lengthy stun (7-10 seconds) effect on direct hits to tanks with arty or HE could also be an interesting addition.

Well. Lets put it that way; Direct hits deal more than before. Prior to arty standardisation damage was as follows on direct hits against tanks and vehicles using the 105 as example:
Axis 105 vs allied tanks on direct hit: 335 damage
US 105 vs German tanks and vehicles: 251,25 (Vs KT, JT, JP, Elephant even far less than that)

After standardisation:
Axis 105 vs Tanks and vehicles: 452,25
Allied 105 vs Tanks and vehicles: 452,25



So direct hits from arty (any arty) deal more damage but near hits and stuff by far less. And axis tanks are not treated differently from allied.

A direct hit of a leig would still deal more damage than it was in the past i think, but less than it does now.


About direct fire hits of the leig 18 i cant say anything. Didnt check it, Only for barrage.

[PanzarFather]

Devs listen to allies fanboys who complain about luftwaffe, hotchkiss, Panthers and individual axis units because they get beat by them. Not even beat a lot, just they find those units annoying. What is annoying is the allies artyspam. Now you found the LeiG unit to complain about. Some axis players did good with it one match and you instsntly talk about how it is a ”killing ninja” and needs to be nerfed. This whole forum is about to make axis weaker except my posts here on this forum, and that is why Warhawks97 attack me and what I say in my posts all the time.

[MarKr]

OK, ok we'll keep LeiG18 as it is...but if LeiG18 is just fine, then the US pack howitzer should work the same way. So it will get the option to camouflage itself, it will be able to shoot directly and will hit 99% of shots at infantry, no matter if they are in cover or not, moving or not and will one-shot wipe any axis squad even in green cover.

I suppose you will not complain, if it is OK for Axis, it shouldn't be a problem for allies.

[Warhawks97]

Devs listen to allies fanboys who complain about luftwaffe, hotchkiss, Panthers and individual axis units because they get beat by them. Not even beat a lot, just they find those units annoying. What is annoying is the allies artyspam. Now you found the LeiG unit to complain about. Some axis players did good with it one match and you instsntly talk about how it is a ”killing ninja” and needs to be nerfed. This whole forum is about to make axis weaker except my posts here on this forum, and that is why Warhawks97 attack me and what I say in my posts all the time.

dude, i know its pointless to answer to you and it will be the last time i do so.


This is not "too weak/too strong" debate. Its an oversight.


In the past axis arty used to have no damage penalty vs tanks and vehicles while allied sufferd 25-50% damage penalty against tanks and vehicles.
We then standardized all arty so that direct hits deal more damage accross the board while suffering a 25% damage loss vs vehicles and tanks which makes a huge difference in damage when shots hit close to targets.


To give you an example:
leig 18 has 90 base damage. Thats boosted by 50% for direct hits that makes 135 damage. But then it deals on top of that 50% damage boost to vehicles boosting it to 202.5


If we use the pack howitzer as reference it has 100 damage and 150 damage on direct hits for the same reason. Against vehicles it suffers 25% damage penalty bringing it to 112.5 damage.


Now, things get worse when shots hit close to target. Lets assume damage is reduced by 20% when the shot falls close to a target. That would make 72 base damage for the leig 18 and 80 for pack howitzer. Now against vehicles this damage gets increased by 50% for leig 18 but reduced by 25% for the pack howitzer. That makes 108 for the leig 18 and 60 for the pack howitzer.

If we now assume that a vehicle has 280-335 HP that would mean thatb one direct and one close hit would kill a vehicle when hit by leig 18, but a pack howitzer would need three direct hits to kill one vehicle.


Now tell me again where this bullshit makes any sense or has to do with balance. Its plain broken.



That particluar game was not a serious one but more of an intense fun game. But i simply noticed that my vehicles blew up just like that and i couldnt see why, until i saw that leig 18 with insane ammount of kills. Like 6 vehicles and god knows how many infantry.
At the end we won the game afterall and i wasnt "beaten up" by it. It just felt wrong that a tiny 75 mm gun snipes vehicles like that with its barrge and dealing such massive damage per hit.


@markr:
Forgot to mention: I think the range bracket should be checked for leig 18. If i am not mistaken direct hit is counted in an AoE of 1.5 and not just 1. but i might be mistaken. Not at home atm.






And alli arty spam?
The Calli jeep got crippled heavily and the first kind of arty i usually see are Maultier rocket launchers. And thats the case in 90% of all games.



And i feel bad for you that you cant see the difference between arguments and personal attacks.

[Mantis]

OK, ok we'll keep LeiG18 as it is...but if LeiG18 is just fine, then the US pack howitzer should work the same way. So it will get the option to camouflage itself, it will be able to shoot directly and will hit 99% of shots at infantry, no matter if they are in cover or not, moving or not and will one-shot wipe any axis squad even in green cover.

I suppose you will not complain, if it is OK for Axis, it shouldn't be a problem for allies.

Ok, so if AB have light howitzer, make LEIG 18 for luft buyable from garages too... With this logic will be no problem, right?

[PanzarFather]

OK, ok we'll keep LeiG18 as it is...but if LeiG18 is just fine, then the US pack howitzer should work the same way. So it will get the option to camouflage itself, it will be able to shoot directly and will hit 99% of shots at infantry, no matter if they are in cover or not, moving or not and will one-shot wipe any axis squad even in green cover.

I suppose you will not complain, if it is OK for Axis, it shouldn't be a problem for allies.

vs

LeiG is pretty accurate, and targets infantry. The mobile 75mm M1A1 Pack Howitzer however that AB has is stronger, it kills infantry, halftracks, armoredcars and tank.
I am fine with 75mm M1A1 Pack Howitzer being stronger, BUT then it shouldn't have camo. Don't let the mobile 75mm M1A1 Pack Howitzer camouflage itself too just because Walderschmidt and Warhawks97 cry about it please, that makes imbalances between axis and allies in favor of allies.

[PanzarFather]

Devs listen to allies fanboys who complain about luftwaffe, hotchkiss, Panthers and individual axis units because they get beat by them. Not even beat a lot, just they find those units annoying. What is annoying is the allies artyspam. Now you found the LeiG unit to complain about. Some axis players did good with it one match and you instsntly talk about how it is a ”killing ninja” and needs to be nerfed. This whole forum is about to make axis weaker except my posts here on this forum, and that is why Warhawks97 attack me and what I say in my posts all the time.

dude, i know its pointless to answer to you and it will be the last time i do so.

Ok good, because from what I can see in the history of your answers to my posts, you shoot wildly everywhere with loose arguments that rarely hit anywhere, mixed with personal hatred towards me. Not because you know me personally or had the honor of talking to me via voice chat, but because you simply do not like what I write here in the forum and the way I write it.

I've said it before, and I guess I'll have to say it again. If devs are going to hold on to continuing nerf axis and buff allies, then it just ends up with some traditional axis players starting to play allies all the time (which I started to do) and finally when there is no one who wants to play axis anymore people will stop playing BK because it is too unbalanced.
With that said, I do not hope that what I have said now is interpreted in a childish way as "just listen to me and my perspectives only and do as I say", but that I am a person who comes with an axis-perspective and that devs can benefit from it by being open to that kind perspective, since they only have allies-perspectives on this forum, and then make their assessments later on how they want to do, as with Wirbelwind for example that I brought up in another post.

This is not "too weak/too strong" debate. Its an oversight.

In the past axis arty used to have no damage penalty vs tanks and vehicles while allied sufferd 25-50% damage penalty against tanks and vehicles.
We then standardized all arty so that direct hits deal more damage accross the board while suffering a 25% damage loss vs vehicles and tanks which makes a huge difference in damage when shots hit close to targets.


To give you an example:
leig 18 has 90 base damage. Thats boosted by 50% for direct hits that makes 135 damage. But then it deals on top of that 50% damage boost to vehicles boosting it to 202.5


If we use the pack howitzer as reference it has 100 damage and 150 damage on direct hits for the same reason. Against vehicles it suffers 25% damage penalty bringing it to 112.5 damage.


Now, things get worse when shots hit close to target. Lets assume damage is reduced by 20% when the shot falls close to a target. That would make 72 base damage for the leig 18 and 80 for pack howitzer. Now against vehicles this damage gets increased by 50% for leig 18 but reduced by 25% for the pack howitzer. That makes 108 for the leig 18 and 60 for the pack howitzer.

If we now assume that a vehicle has 280-335 HP that would mean thatb one direct and one close hit would kill a vehicle when hit by leig 18, but a pack howitzer would need three direct hits to kill one vehicle.

I don't have corsix and don't know how each numbers work fully, you could be correct or not, I don't know, so there is very little room for me to give an direct answer to this.

Now tell me again where this bullshit makes any sense or has to do with balance. Its plain broken.

To my experience: I don't think LeiG is broken at all when playing with it or playing against people who use it.

And alli arty spam?
The Calli jeep got crippled heavily and the first kind of arty i usually see are Maultier rocket launchers. And thats the case in 90% of all games.

I added a replay when I play as britts and totally shred the city in the map "La chaudiere".
We lost that match, but that has nothing to do with the argument. I was still able to arty-spam.

And i feel bad for you that you cant see the difference between arguments and personal attacks.

Don't feel bad, you just have to read your own comments. Here is an example:

This toxicity.... Perhaps that is why people start hating you after a short time of having the honor to meet you

This is a clear insult and personal attack. I see the difference between comments like this and arguments about the game. This is where you shoot wildly everywhere with loose arguments that rarely hit anywhere.

[Walderschmidt]

Where did I cry about it?

Show me the text where I cry about it.

Wald

[CGarr]

OK, ok we'll keep LeiG18 as it is...but if LeiG18 is just fine, then the US pack howitzer should work the same way. So it will get the option to camouflage itself, it will be able to shoot directly and will hit 99% of shots at infantry, no matter if they are in cover or not, moving or not and will one-shot wipe any axis squad even in green cover.

I suppose you will not complain, if it is OK for Axis, it shouldn't be a problem for allies.

This actually sounds kinda badass, and allies already have something similar with the stupid CW HE field gun for RAF so it's not like its a new concept. The aiming cone would have to be super narrow though. Give it range similar to the RAF gun and no camo ability, direct fire HE field guns would still be super useful. The price could be increased a bit to compensate.

Don't nerf the leig, just give allies something similar and if anybody complains, point at out that it isn't unique and that both sides already had something similar.

[Warhawks97]

OK, ok we'll keep LeiG18 as it is...but if LeiG18 is just fine, then the US pack howitzer should work the same way. So it will get the option to camouflage itself, it will be able to shoot directly and will hit 99% of shots at infantry, no matter if they are in cover or not, moving or not and will one-shot wipe any axis squad even in green cover.

I suppose you will not complain, if it is OK for Axis, it shouldn't be a problem for allies.

This actually sounds kinda badass, and allies already have something similar with the stupid CW HE field gun for RAF so it's not like its a new concept. The aiming cone would have to be super narrow though. Give it range similar to the RAF gun and no camo ability, direct fire HE field guns would still be super useful. The price could be increased a bit to compensate.

Don't nerf the leig, just give allies something similar and if anybody complains, point at out that it isn't unique and that both sides already had something similar.

That was meant to be sarcastic i think. No one wants a weapon that ignores cover etc.

The topic is also about the leig 18 barrage ability dealing 50% more damage on vehicles and tanks when it would actually lose 25% damage against tanks and vehicles and tanks.

So the topic is more about the barrage ability, not the direct fire stuff. I did not yet see RAF field gun or leig 18 in direct fire mode so i cant say if they perform better than they should.

[kwok]

I think cgar was saying that despite it being sarcastic it would still be a fun idea to have the 75mm howitzer have direct fire capabilities, that's all. At this point this topic is about field guns it seems....

[Walderschmidt]

I didn’t realize the pack howitzer didn’t have direct fire.

I say give it direct fire and and take away the direct hit penalty.

Wald

[Warhawks97]

I didn’t realize the pack howitzer didn’t have direct fire.

I say give it direct fire and and take away the direct hit penalty.

Wald

Direct fire mode and barrage mode are basically using two different weapon. So the damage penalty can stay on the barrage ability while the direct fire ability would have completely different stats.

[PanzarFather]

This actually sounds kinda badass, and allies already have something similar with the stupid CW HE field gun for RAF so it's not like its a new concept. The aiming cone would have to be super narrow though. Give it range similar to the RAF gun and no camo ability, direct fire HE field guns would still be super useful. The price could be increased a bit to compensate.

Don't nerf the leig, just give allies something similar and if anybody complains, point at out that it isn't unique and that both sides already had something similar.

Don't give allies something simulair, Let LeIG be as it is and let allies have what they already have. Allies already have field gun which is a SUPER UNIT and kills infantry much quicker than the Wirbelwind, and allies have their mobile Howitzers from the AB doctrine which is more powerful than the LeIG.

[PanzarFather]

Where did I cry about it?

Show me the text where I cry about it.

Wald

You help "cry" in the sense that you constantly agree to buff allies whenever someone else is crying about a some axis unit being good.

I didn’t realize the pack howitzer didn’t have direct fire.

I say give it direct fire and and take away the direct hit penalty.

Wald

[Warhawks97]

This actually sounds kinda badass, and allies already have something similar with the stupid CW HE field gun for RAF so it's not like its a new concept. The aiming cone would have to be super narrow though. Give it range similar to the RAF gun and no camo ability, direct fire HE field guns would still be super useful. The price could be increased a bit to compensate.

Don't nerf the leig, just give allies something similar and if anybody complains, point at out that it isn't unique and that both sides already had something similar.

Don't give allies something simulair, Let LeIG be as it is and let allies have what they already have. Allies already have field gun which is a SUPER UNIT and kills infantry much quicker than the Wirbelwind, and allies have their mobile Howitzers from the AB doctrine which is more powerful than the LeIG.

The entire Topic is about leig 18 dealing extenisve damage against vehicles with its barrage, almost twice as much as the pack howitzer does.
At the same time its better than RAF field gun due to its ability to camo.


So, what does allis "already" have? Nothing alike. The leig 18 is a combo of RAF field gun and packhowitzer, just better in both regards.
Where is the packhowitzer is any better than the leig 18?

You help "cry" in the sense that you constantly agree to buff allies whenever someone else is crying about a some axis unit being good.

Sure, because you have seen every single post he made over the past months or years already.


Also, "being good" is a different to being "outright broken". I want units to be good and cost effective, every unit should be good in its sense. But sometimes things are just broken and unjustified.