Beta 5.2.2 First Reactions

[Krieger Blitzer]

- Changed the penetration chance of 76mm guns vs Hetzer to 75% at max range (from 54%)
- Changed the penetration chance of 76mm guns vs JPIV L48 (WM and PE) to 75% at max range (from 59.6%)
- Changed the penetration chance of 76mm guns vs JPIV L70 (WM and PE) to 50% at max range (from 24%)

Strictly against those 3 ones in particular, specifically the underlined one marked in red.
in fact; the one marked in red is utter madness, and in my opinion has to be reverted back immediately.

- Changed UI position of Hotchkiss so it no longer collides with Sdkfz. 222

i think we had a slot issue with Pz4.F2 & Pz3.N in SE doc as well.

[F31.58]

Tiger, first two are same tier/level, its ok. The last one will have same chances as Sherman 75mm before against Stugs on max range - means, it will still won't have advantage over L70 and L70 will still able to frontally rush and advance on 76mm tanks. The only thing I worried about now - is that 76mm Sherman has more HP than counter-parts, hope this won't make it outline comparing to German mediums

[MarKr]

Strictly against those 3 ones in particular, specifically the underlined one marked in red.
in fact; the one marked in red is utter madness, and in my opinion has to be reverted back immediately.

Is there any particular reason?

This could be said about literally any point in any changelog. Without providing more details it is impossible to say what exactly you find problematic about it.

[Mantis]

Nice allied buff/german nerf. I think, in near future will almost nobody play this mod

[Diablo]

^Nope, finally US tanks will stand a rightful chance against those Übermensch-Wehrmacht vehicles from BKs early times.
Would have expected a slight reflection in US prices, though.

[Mantis]

^Nope, finally US tanks will stand a rightful chance against those Übermensch-Wehrmacht vehicles from BKs early times.
Would have expected a slight reflection in US prices, though.

You mean from real war. Allied tanks was very low, true. Now this game will be ballanced sci-fi with very low axis tanks))

[MarKr]

Would have expected a slight reflection in US prices, though.

We didn't increase the costs of allied medium tanks mainly because in 5.2.0 the medium tanks of Axis got cheaper not just in resources but some of them also in CP:

WM:
- Set the cost of stubby PIV variants to 390MP 40F (from various costs); F1 in TH doctrine costs now 400MP 45F to make up for the top MG
- PIV F2 is now available in BK and Propaganda docs without unlock
- PIV F2 cost lowered to 390F 40M (with Mass Produdction 360MP 35F)
- Mass Production unlock (BK doc) reduces the cost of Panzer IV H to 525MP 55F (from 450MP 65F)
- Panzer IV H basic cost dropped to 550MP 65F (from 80F)
PE:
- Added Panzer IV F2 to Panzer Support doctrine (no unlock needed)
- Lowered the cost of Panzer IV J to 410MP 45Fuel (from 550MP 60F)
- Lowered the cost of Panzer IV H to 550MP 50Fuel (from 550MP 80F)

These changes were not offset by lowering the performance of these tanks which means they kept their better performance and also got cheaper. So the offset/counterbalance now came in this form.

You mean from real war. Allied tanks was very low, true. Now this game will be ballanced sci-fi with very low axis tanks))

I don't like using the "realism" argument as a reason for balancing but if you really want to compare "real life performance" then Shermans were better than Panzer IVs. These changes put the Shermans and PIVs on very similar level so in a way yes, it is "sci-fi" because in reality Shermans were even better than this .

[Krieger Blitzer]

Is there any particular reason?

This could be said about literally any point in any changelog. Without providing more details it is impossible to say what exactly you find problematic about it.

Hadn't have enough time to provide reasons while typing my first post, but now i do have a couple of minutes to illustrate my stand-point:

We all know for a fact that the goal of this US 76mm buff is mainly to make 76 Shermans (and other US tanks with the same gun) in par with their Axis counterparts, meaning they would be more equal to Pz4 tanks, Stugs (which are more of multirole tanks with HE), as well as generally all the 75mm L48 Axis tanks.. however, from my understanding; the 76 isn't supposed to be buffed against any high tier tanks.. no?
Which the JPz L70 is definitely considered one, JPz L70 simply does not belong to this list.

That's pretty much more like buffing the Axis 75mm L48 to be 50% more effective against Jumbo Shermans!
Needless to say that such a huge increase from 24% to 50% would make the 76 (which is available in ALL US docs) supposedly comparable to 90mm guns and equivalent (or even better than) the 17pdr with minimal performance differences.

Not to mention that other Axis TDs (like Hetzer/JPz L48) generally rely primarily on armor, and nothing else.. as they can't rely on speed or rotatable turrets, like Allied TDs. So, the neutralization of this advantage in any possible way, would mean to significantly question the purpose of these TDs.
Hetzer - in particular - received too much nerfs that it actually became useless already that i even thought about creating a topic on it recently.

Hope i have briefly come down as much explanatory as possible; for which i have to conclude the following; while i'm absolutely fine with buffing the 76 against Pz4/Stugs, yet i'm doubtlessly against buffing them vs TDs, and most of all, surely against buffing them vs any higher tier tanks.

[MarKr]

Hope i have briefly come down as much explanatory as possible

I don't know man...comparing 76mm to 90mm or 17 pounder doesn't seem right here. The benefit of these two guns is their effectiveness against Panthers, Tigers and other late game stuff. The 76mm is nowhere near their performance against these targets and at the same time the JPIV L70 is not the same tier as the aforementioned units. I would say it sits somewhere between them.

Yes, they rely on armor, which makes them harder to hit by default which was another thing players complained about - "they are hard to hit and if you finally manage to hit them, they bounce off the shot". Now they are still harder to hit and if you manage to hit them, the shot can still bounce, just not so easily as before.
They are also still capable of camouflage - Shermans cannot camouflage so the advantage is still on the side of JPIVs if you use their advantage..well, to their advantage, especially the L70 as its gun is much stronger than L48.

Well, anyway - try to play some games before writing the patch off. If after some time people support your points, it can get reviewed.

EDIT: Moved here from the announcement topic for 5.2.2.

[mofetagalactica]

Hope i have briefly come down as much explanatory as possible

I don't know man...comparing 76mm to 90mm or 17 pounder doesn't seem right here. The benefit of these two guns is their effectiveness against Panthers, Tigers and other late game stuff. The 76mm is nowhere near their performance against these targets and at the same time the JPIV L70 is not the same tier as the aforementioned units. I would say it sits somewhere between them.

Yes, they rely on armor, which makes them harder to hit by default which was another thing players complained about - "they are hard to hit and if you finally manage to hit them, they bounce off the shot". Now they are still harder to hit and if you manage to hit them, the shot can still bounce, just not so easily as before.
They are also still capable of camouflage - Shermans cannot camouflage so the advantage is still on the side of JPIVs if you use their advantage..well, to their advantage, especially the L70 as its gun is much stronger than L48.

Well, anyway - try to play some games before writing the patch off. If after some time people support your points, it can get reviewed.

EDIT: Moved here from the announcement topic for 5.2.2.

I'll be honest about something, when there are patches that only has changes for 1 faction and just nerfs for the other faction it becomes really really hard to find players to test in beta, since the player that has to test Axis will only feel kind of the same or has nothing to test so the hype is really low.

Maybe if you also add some changes on price of certain units (TD's) and since Kar's stats got changed to 25-30 maybe you could take my suggestion on making certain weapon upgrades for axis easier to adquire and make them play around that.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3844 (kar post)

Or .. i think its gonna be either take a long time for players to test beta like this (meanwhile allies get bored to play live version) or just release it into the live version.

[mofetagalactica]

Beta crashes at start, its broken.

[MarKr]

Yes we know, it is due to an error in the infantry-only mode file. Fix is on the way.

[Warhawks97]

hmm.


Hetzers and IV/48 have not been a super big issue. I mean yes, they made camping gameplay super easy, but a better option would have been if tanks were actually able when staying basically right next to these tanks when flanking them.
Also these tanks are in doctrines which are not known for kicking buts quickly. Def doc felt quite OK to have some tank tank destroyers because they dont have much else to offer except elephant and the TD´s need additional support against infantry unlike Tank IV´s do with their turret, HE and MG´s.





I would have increased the pen vs Tank IV H/j to 70-75% (even higher vs the 50 mm armored tank IV´s) and against IV/48 and hetzer to arround 60-65.


Hetzers and IV/48 forcing camp gameplay, but they dont rush you from the field and have little to nothing against infantry.

So i share the concerns from tiger to some degree. Too bad i am currently not at home for testing it out.

[Devilfish]

@devs, please give up on the beta concept because it's senseless. Push smaller updates to product version more often, with quick hotfixes in case of fuckups. You'll have much easier time achieving something, trust me.

[kwok]

@devs, please give up on the beta concept because it's senseless. Push smaller updates to product version more often, with quick hotfixes in case of fuckups. You'll have much easier time achieving something, trust me.

beta is to test if the dang patch works man. lucky we did because the latest beta release literally broke the entire game where no one could play (fatal ai error on start because we tweaked the infantry only mode and that broke everything). we don't have time for "quick hot fixes". we fixed it fast because we were lucky that at least 2 people were free to make the fix within the past two days. this isn't our day to day jobs.

trust us.

[Mood]

Time to abandon the Hetzer and the JPIV completely

On a serious note though, won't this make Shermans way too good vs "normal" TDs? I kind of wish these TDs stayed excellent vs tanks, but poor vs infantry (and quick light vehicles). Like someone mentioned above, they already have the downside of slow rotation, no turret, no top mg (except that mediocre one on Hetzers) - do they really need a nerf like this? Perhaps make shermans cheaper instead (or some similar solution) but keep old stats?

Anyway, I'm sure the community will test this stuff properly and hopefully it'll be changed if it ends up imbalanced.

[F31.58]

I would maybe add HE rounds to the TD in return, just for self-defence, because such radical change seems to be too much to be comfort with after all those years of Axis vehicle domination

[Mood]

I would maybe add HE rounds to the TD in return, just for self-defence, because such radical change seems to be too much to be comfort with after all those years of Axis vehicle domination

I don't mind them missing HE actually (for balance), but I guess with a change like the one above they will now often get one-shot by Shermans and stuff. I don't think adding a HE ability will make me want to build them when there are other non-TD options available.

[F31.58]

I would maybe add HE rounds to the TD in return, just for self-defence, because such radical change seems to be too much to be comfort with after all those years of Axis vehicle domination

I don't mind them missing HE actually (for balance), but I guess with a change like the one above they will now often get one-shot by Shermans and stuff. I don't think adding a HE ability will make me want to build them when there are other non-TD options available.

With those changes they will be less likely success in attacking, rather than defending, but still they would be in advantage anyway. Most of the vehicles mentioned here are doctrinal, so you won't be having a big choice outside them, so having HE ( considering that they don't have MG ) would make it just a bit more useful

[F31.58]

I will try to find players to play with in beta on weekeends, but not sure because there is not much testers on euro-timezone.
I hope to see some changes towards def overperforming and terror doc underperforming

[Warhawks97]

No, dont add HE to the TD´s. We dont need Stug 2.0.

These tanks are supposed to stop tanks and i am afraid they wont be better in doing this anymore than former M10 even though they still have somewhat better armor.

I liked the Tankyness which wasnt too OP and they lack anti inf stuff which is good actually.



German TD once had two ambush shots and armor. Now they became more or less M10´s without mobility.




What i would have done:

I am pushing for Tank guns having 0.85 base accuracy instead of 0.75 at long range. That would help to prevent those epic fail moves where you manage to get close on a german TD and still just hitting dirt.

The pen chance of 76 gun vs Hetzer and IV/48 would be 0.6-0.65 instead of 0.75.

That way these tanks wouldnt easily rush hidden M10 since the pen chance against them from ambush would have been increased from 67,5/74,5 respectively to 75/81,25.

At the sime time they would have retained some of their tankiness when stoping attacking enemie tanks.


For the IV/70 0.35 or 0.4 pen from long range would have been enough i would say.



So yeah, leave some minimum of armor to the german TD. What else SE and def doc have left in terms of armor? Nothing except for elephant for def doc.



No one complained about Hetzer and IV/48 except for missing them from ranges where it shouldnt happen so frequently.
On top of that HVAP gavew the 76 guns a good 83,16% pen chance afterall. Fair enough.

[F31.58]

No, dont add HE to the TD´s. We dont need Stug 2.0.

These tanks are supposed to stop tanks and i am afraid they wont be better in doing this anymore than former M10 even though they still have somewhat better armor.

I liked the Tankyness which wasnt too OP and they lack anti inf stuff which is good actually.



German TD once had two ambush shots and armor. Now they became more or less M10´s without mobility.




What i would have done:

I am pushing for Tank guns having 0.85 base accuracy instead of 0.75 at long range. That would help to prevent those epic fail moves where you manage to get close on a german TD and still just hitting dirt.

The pen chance of 76 gun vs Hetzer and IV/48 would be 0.6-0.65 instead of 0.75.

That way these tanks wouldnt easily rush hidden M10 since the pen chance against them from ambush would have been increased from 67,5/74,5 respectively to 75/81,25.

At the sime time they would have retained some of their tankiness when stoping attacking enemie tanks.


For the IV/70 0.35 or 0.4 pen from long range would have been enough i would say.



So yeah, leave some minimum of armor to the german TD. What else SE and def doc have left in terms of armor? Nothing except for elephant for def doc.



No one complained about Hetzer and IV/48 except for missing them from ranges where it shouldnt happen so frequently.
On top of that HVAP gavew the 76 guns a good 83,16% pen chance afterall. Fair enough.

With those changes you won't ever have a problem with stug 2.0

[MarKr]

Hetzer
600 HP
76mm penetration at max range: 75%
76mm damage: 400-600 (500 on average)
76mm chance to hit at max range: 63%
Hetzer penetration vs M4A3 at max range from camo: 78% (100% chance to hit)
Hetzer damage vs M4A3 from camo: 500-750 (625 on average; Sherman has 700HP)

JPIV L48
650 HP
76mm penetration at max range: 75%
76mm damage: 400-600 (500 on average)
76mm chance to hit at max range: 56%
JPIV penetration vs M4A3 at max range from camo: 78% (100% chance to hit)
JPIV damage vs M4A3 from camo: 500-750 (625 on average; Sherman has 700HP)

JPIV L70
Chance to penetrate Sherman
650HP
76mm penetration at max range: 50%
76mm damage: 400-600 (500 on average)
76mm chance to hit at max range: 56%
JPIV penetration vs M4A3 at max range from camo: 100+% (100% chance to hit)
JPIV damage vs M4A3 from camo: 625-812 (718 on average; Sherman has 700HP)

When a Hetzer or JPIV L48 goes against a 76mm Sherman, on average both need to penetrate the other twice to destroy it. Hetzer and JPIV have camouflage and should use it to their advantage, as such they have the benefit of the first shot and at the same time they have better chance to hit the Sherman and penetrate it. Even if the Sherman survives the shot and fires at the Hetzer/JPIV, it first needs to hit, which is (almost) 50:50 chance. If it hits (and this is a big "IF") it can penetrate but still will in most cases need to hit twice. The Hetzer/JPIV will sure shoot its second shot before the Sherman can shoot its second shot so the Axis TDs have advantage.

In case of the L70 version, the chances are quite good it will one-shot Sherman and even if not, it still needs to go through the same process as above - Sherman needs to hit it twice with almost 50% chance to miss, but in this case it also has 50% chance to bounce off even if it hits.

It just feels like people saw the numbers and their reaction was pretty much:

And started to come up with theories how the Hetzers/JPIVs will be utterly useless without actually trying it out in the game.

The numbers don't look bad at all if you ask me but I can be wrong. If so, I would rather have a proof than a theoretical talks. Can you post here some replays where Hetzers/JPIVs (when used as intended, not staged cases where you drive your Hetzer ass-first against enemy tanks ) keep consistently failing against Shermans?

[F31.58]

thanks for stats, fuck HE for axis TD, will be too much lmao

[F31.58]

Still thinking that bazooka should be buffed to have a reliable penetration of at least mediums