Stugs (Tank IV H/J)

[Warhawks97]

The question of how many stugs should be in this game is another one. I am just saying that esspecially the stug III is a really underrepresented tank while it should play a bigger role in axis gameplay.

Why is the current StuG distribution among doctrines insufficient?

in the past i already thought about it and i think i brought it up here and there but not in a specific topic.

The stug III was available by default in two docs at least. When i think further back i am sure that some PE docs had also access to them (or stug IV). But their numbers were cut further and now they are more or less only dedicated TD´s for wehrmacht with only one doc having access to stug III.


Up to this point i barely saw any stugs at all or only a handfull of the Stug IV as pure TD´s being actually fielded. Meanwhile the ammount of Tank IV F2 per game have reached an all time high. So much so that i would say its insane. Its good that a unit gets used more often than ever before but in exchange Stugs more or less disappeared as well as the Tank IV H/J´s being used barely at all since they are restricted to two docs only and behind a high number of CP´s (even more CP if you want to mass-produce them).
So one unit literally displaced two others which ironically could be considered the "german shermans of ww2."


So while we have shermans in use in every game by all factions and doctrines now (far more than in the past), which is just great since it gives this game that special touch that makes you feel playing a real WW2 game, the iconic units on the German side are now only playing a minor role.


I would just whish to see stugs (esspecially III) and Tank IV H/J being used more often and representing the actual workforce of german armored forces.




So, what i got in mind now:


1. Throw in more Stug III´s into the game for various docs and 0 CP
- BK
- Propaganda
- Luftwaffe
- Tank Support
- Defensive


2. Special abilties will depend on the doctrine:

Stationary firing position:
- Defensive doctrine

Smoke drop:
- Luftwaffe, BK, Propaganda, Tank support

Hull down:
- Defensive doctrine


Assault ability:
- BK doctrine (unlocked with battlegroup call in)


3. Stug IV and Stug IV late:

Stug IV and IV late will be unlocked in BK doctrine. Either as the seperate unlock it is now or also by the Battlegroup call in unlock.





Tank IV H/J:


1. In BK doc i would argue that paying 3 CP is quite enough to unlock them. The mass-production adds another 3 CP so it shouldnt become a big issue.

2. In Propaganda doctrine there could be the Tank IV J as unlock along with Stug IV unlock. Thats at least how i feel about that.

3. In Tank support doctrine, when unlocking the Tank reserves, you should have access to the Tank IV J if you have the tank IV unlocked (So it would be 5 CP currently in total to get it.




The reason for this is that i think that the F2 does a good job. But it replaces the Tank IV H/J and and Stugs to a too large degree. Also lots of players ending up unlocking only stuff like Tank reserves and Tank IV mass-production to throw in even more F2´s which at that time often get just eaten up by double 57 mm AT guns, 76 shermans and easy eights at whats not.

But for the players it looks like its being the better decision to spend 2-3 CP for massive F2 spam rather than getting out quality units. The cheap F2 literally became a drug no one could withstand.I have seen quite disastrous offensives by Axis players that ended up sending F2´s and stormtroopers against Jumbos and even pershings in some occassions.


Stug III´s and Tank IV H/J´s are essentially dead as it seems. The CP wall is i would say "one too much" and the once nice feeling of BK doc and their iconic Tank IV H and J´s is gone. We are not going to recreate the Tank IV abuse in BK where you could get Tank IV H and mass-production for 4 CP. It would in total still cost 6 CP.

[MarKr]

I would just whish to see stugs (esspecially III) and Tank IV H/J being used more often and representing the actual workforce of german armored forces.

You wrote quite a long post but it simply seems to me that this is the only reason behind it and the rest is just an extra "sauce".

I mean, yeah, there are not StuGs in more doctrines because (from gameplay point of view) why should there be? Def doc has JPIV L48 which has the same ambush role and practically can be used the same way as StuG, only the JPIV is more durable. Propaganda has the Late version, SE also has JPIV, Luft gpt the Heztzer removed because it was deemed unnecessary there and kinda OP to have such a unit there and Tank Support, again have the JPIV.

Or you say that Shermans are finally used which is good but PIV F2:

Meanwhile the ammount of Tank IV F2 per game have reached an all time high. So much so that i would say its insane.
(...)
The reason for this is that i think that the F2 does a good job. But it replaces the Tank IV H/J and and Stugs to a too large degree.

So players use F2 too much because it can do the job and that is...a bad thing?

This on the other hand:

Also lots of players ending up unlocking only stuff like Tank reserves and Tank IV mass-production to throw in even more F2´s which at that time often get just eaten up by double 57 mm AT guns, 76 shermans and easy eights at whats not.
(...)
But for the players it looks like its being the better decision to spend 2-3 CP for massive F2 spam rather than getting out quality units. The cheap F2 literally became a drug no one could withstand.I have seen quite disastrous offensives by Axis players that ended up sending F2´s and stormtroopers against Jumbos and even pershings in some occassions.

...sounds like a problem of the players who use the unit in a not optimal way. How are "StuGs in more doctrines" going to help with player's wrong decisions?

All in all it really sounds that the first quote is your main reason for this change but I don't think it is necessary for the game because it doesn't feel like the StuG/PIV H/J would fill any "blind spot" in the doctrines that don't have them (unless we actually create the blind spots just so the StuGs/PIVs can fill them), also making these units available in more doctrines will affect the balance and therefore will require even more changes along with it and I don't feel like doing all that simply because "some unit was a workhorse in reality and so it should be available to more doctrines in the game".

[Walderschmidt]

I think Stugs are fine as they are.

I didn’t mean to set off an arms race when I posted that thread about M10s but it’s evident I should not have posted it.

Wald

[CGarr]

Stug is fine as is in term of presence within doctrines IMO. If people really think it needs to be more available, I already suggested an idea for how to make it available at 0CP without being obnoxiously OP. Keep ambush, hold firing position, and skirts behind a CP paywall. The rest is fine even at 0CP, both the StuG IV and StuG III are pretty much identical to the Panzer 4 F2 in terms of balance, they're basically just a side-grade (trading a turret and smoke for slightly better armor and a little more late game utility). Outright forcing players to use one or the other is kinda pointless. While I agree with Hawks that either the StuG III or StuG IV early version should be there alongside the Panzer 4 F2 in every doctrine that it is available, I don't think it's high priority, as they are effectively interchangeable.