General Excuse and Debate about Beta

Talk about CoH1 or BKMOD1 in general.
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Warhawks97
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General Excuse and Debate about Beta

Post by Warhawks97 »

MarKr wrote:
26 Jun 2020, 23:32
erfed by cutting their magazin
HOLY FUCKING SHIT! SHADOWNERFZZZZZZZZZ EVERYWHERE! I am realy getting tired of that word. The magazine size is overlook from the time when we adjusting the RoF. One of the versions I was working with was to make the Garands fire in "burst" and see if it would bypass a problem I ran into back then. It didn't work so stuff got reverted and I forgot about this one but YEAAAAAH SHADOWNERFZZZZ, ILLUMINATI CONFIRMED! I kan kinda understand Apollo/Papa(whatever his nick is) and those other dudes from his "Allies OP" group using that word because they think we intentionally nerf stuff without telling anyone about it (althought their list of "shadownerfs" is mostly BS based on false or inclomplete data) but I really wondr why YOU of all people think that IF we wanted to make a "shadownerf", we would make it in a place where it is ridiculously easy to spot - especially when we know that people in community know how to open the files and see the stats.

Most curious thing about this is that the RoF changes took place like a year ago and nobody noticed smaller magazine so far and when the RoF changes took place (including the overlooked smaller mag) people still reportedd great performance of the weapon. Hell, even with the smaller mag size several people here in this topic told you that the rifles work just fine but for some reason in their games they have no problem with the weapon but in your games the smaller mag sizes are the reason why your units sucked ballz...

CW rifle changes were postponed for later because they didn't really feel TOO bad compared to other units + there have been changes in vehicle avalability which allowed for some new unit combinations sooner which compensated for the cmoperatively lower rifle performance of CW. If you check the entirety of the beta, nobody complained about the CW rifles underperforming, there have, however, been complaints about CW being OP in general.

Most ridiculous part about this all is that people, who have been playing the beta with these changes for MUCH longe rthan you, told you several times that in their hands-on experience the rifle performance is fine but you keep complaining about how BS it is because you saw some numbers that you didn't like in the Corsix and you want to change it despite people having said it works well in the current way...but no, they don't know what they're talking about because their months of experiences is worth shit compared to your few games in last 3 weeks, it should be changed as you say. :roll:

So thank you for reporting the overlooked magazine size, not so much thank you for hopping on that "shadownerfs" train just because you didn't like some numbers...and fuck ME for writing stuff on forum when I'm drunk.



alright. I changed it. That was unfair from my side. But i got really frustrated in almost all games i played as US.


Like: The rifles were not competetive... Perhaps its not just the stats but also the fact that you feel kind of being overruned from all sides as US right from start..... pressure, pressure, pressure...From First Volks to Panzer IV´s and AA Tanks. First by all the volks stuff, and when you got that first push under controle, the first dirty cheap Tank IV´s show up which are kind of quite resistant to 57 mm AT and taking those out head on...Cheap elite inf on all corners that keeps coming and coming. Cheap AA tanks that are so hilariously cheap and numerous that you dont even have to consider playing any infantry once they show up...

Meanwhile i spent a lot of res just to get the cal 50 and greyhounds working somehow... and the never solved issue of the super gamble 76 mm guns... when you see your M10 ambushing a Tank IV and bouncing off.


Things were so bad that i am right now only playing axis again. I lost games there as well, but they hadnt that frustrating "no matter how good i play or how well i outplay my opponent, i lose" kind of taste you get as US. When i outplayed my enemies as Propaganda doc, i won for sure. When i outplayed my opponents with rifles and jeep i still coudlnt hold on against their savage revenge counterattack and my well placed rifles got just overpowered and were totally useless as a defensive unit.


And the only game i lost as PE was bc the CW dude helped the US with daimler and killing all my vehicles. But else the game had been over within the first 4 mins. US player had nothing to hold on against scout car, grens, 28 mm car, HMG42 and so on when we played on rather larger maps that are not bottleneck style.



I came back to bk to enjoy the new docs. But i could only enjoy the WH docs and the Luftwaffe. As US the games just never lasted long enough to make some use of the doctrine except for the cal 50 jeep.






CW rifle changes were postponed for later because they didn't really feel TOO bad compared to other units + there have been changes in vehicle avalability which allowed for some new unit combinations sooner which compensated for the cmoperatively lower rifle performance of CW. If you check the entirety of the beta, nobody complained about the CW rifles underperforming, there have, however, been complaints about CW being OP in general.
Bc the CW inf doesnt do that much. Sometimes i didnt even face them bc there were just daimler, bren carrier and stuff like that which ruled the day. The few times CW inf appeared were no successfull days for them.

But as you say, new and more combos compensate for the loss. Same goes for the K98 but whenever i brought that up i got told "keep on topic" by Wald and others.

WH does have hell many new build options. You can get officer and Halftrack right from the beginning and spamming inf. Or inf and 20 mm car. So you can keep your units reinforced+ you get more firepower (20 mm or MG´s of HT).



And the best part is:

When i played vs Propaganda no one played Volksgrens. The Combo of Volkssturm, HT and vehicles was super deadly. The only time i survived that was when kwok ran his 20 mm car into a bazooka squad in a bad move.


And i just used a single Volkrgren squad as Propaganda doc each time. Backed with HT and officer they racked up so many kills.
And PE grens still use the old K98 stats and are also doing totally fine.



Most ridiculous part about this all is that people, who have been playing the beta with these changes for MUCH longe rthan you, told you several times that in their hands-on experience the rifle performance is fine but you keep complaining about how BS it is because you saw some numbers that you didn't like in the Corsix and you want to change it despite people having said it works well in the current way...but no, they don't know what they're talking about because their months of experiences is worth shit compared to your few games in last 3 weeks, it should be changed as you say. :roll:

So thank you for reporting the overlooked magazine size, not so much thank you for hopping on that "shadownerfs" train just because you didn't like some numbers...and fuck ME for writing stuff on forum when I'm drunk.

As i said, PE grens still have old K98 stats and they do fine. Or has anyone left a comlain?
Nope. So You can take either stats, old once or new once, most players will say its better now. The question is: When people had no issue with PE K98 stats which are the old one, why should K98 get buffs at all?


And as i stated above, i saw only a few times the units with the buffed K98´s and the few times they do (or the few times i use them) they are racking up kills.

Instead the new possible build orders for WH is what really changed the WH early game and kept them in game in HR games as well as the delayed cal 50´s on US side. The Majority probably didnt even notice the difference because they dont care so much and dont analyze every game and every infantry engagment afterwards in the replays and are just happy when they see themselves winning or blames skills.

I had at least two 2 vs 2 games and one 1 vs 1 game as axis in which i really pitied my opponents. They blamed themselves for the losing despite the fact that i fucked my entire early game up and still won just bc i clusterfucked my inf arround my HT with officer guarded by one 37 mm gun. I had the far worse position when it came down on tactical positioning and still won just by spaming reinforcments.

Same in the 1 vs 1 i had vs a CW player. He didnt do bad and i wasted so many units, including vehicles. I ran into ambushes and whats not and still i won again against his commandos.

Its just this part were you think you should actually lose, still win and see your enemie still blaming themselves for losing. But it was in fact not their fault. It was my abuse of dirty cheap but effective inf and Tank IV´s and AA Tanks. I Literally abused numbers....



So i am really sorry for my behaviour here. It was perhaps not my best one.



But things happend in games that were just not correct. And in afterwards in discord we all agreed that there a few things that should be different.
Like no more dirty cheap, spamable AA tanks that can bounce medium AT gun.
Or that cal 50 shouldnt cost 50 fuel just to unlock. 100 MP, 15 fuel and 15 ammo would have been enough.
Or, the performance of certain rifles.

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MarKr
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Re: General Excuse and Debate about Beta

Post by MarKr »

Thanks for this post. Very few people in the past apologized and their behavior wasn't their best. Sorry for me snapping at you - I'm really getting alergic to that word because the people who keep using it have been proven wrong over and over, never admiting any mistake in their "findings" and it just gets annoying.
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Walderschmidt
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Re: General Excuse and Debate about Beta

Post by Walderschmidt »

Good on you for being able to be the bigger man.

Let's play a 1v1 sometime so we can chat about the game state after we've both had a chance to see the same thing in action.

Wald
Kwok is an allied fanboy!

AND SO IS DICKY

AND MARKR IS THE BIGGGEST ALLIED FANBOI OF THEM ALL

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Walderschmidt
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Re: General Excuse and Debate about Beta

Post by Walderschmidt »

And what a surprise. Playing the beta and specifically allies and the rifles do feel extremely weak.

I wonder how they will feel with 8 bullets in a magazine compared to 4. I think part of the reason why I don't feel bad with rifles is that I am pretty good about keeping my units alive and see them perform when they have vet and or a bar or something.

Wald
Kwok is an allied fanboy!

AND SO IS DICKY

AND MARKR IS THE BIGGGEST ALLIED FANBOI OF THEM ALL

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Redgaarden
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Re: General Excuse and Debate about Beta

Post by Redgaarden »

4 bullets in the magazine isn't that big of a nerf. And vet 5 riflemen are pretty garbage.
Rifles are not for fighting. They are for building!

kwok
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Re: General Excuse and Debate about Beta

Post by kwok »

Eh it’s a pretty big nerf is reload is 2-4 seconds... in Bk time that’s enough for a good player to rush and toss a grenade. I’m inclined to agree that it’s a bug that really shouldn’t be. If it makes rifles OP then we tune it differently because reload/rof balancing is like trying to figure out the weight of gold by using bricks on a scale. It quickly explodes effectiveness of weapons exponentially.


I don’t know if garands specifically are over or under powered. But on principle magazine size should be fixed. Imagine if an mg had half the burst capacity. The game would be radically different

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CGarr
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Re: General Excuse and Debate about Beta

Post by CGarr »

kwok wrote:
28 Jun 2020, 22:41
Eh it’s a pretty big nerf is reload is 2-4 seconds... in Bk time that’s enough for a good player to rush and toss a grenade. I’m inclined to agree that it’s a bug that really shouldn’t be. If it makes rifles OP then we tune it differently because reload/rof balancing is like trying to figure out the weight of gold by using bricks on a scale. It quickly explodes effectiveness of weapons exponentially.


I don’t know if garands specifically are over or under powered. But on principle magazine size should be fixed. Imagine if an mg had half the burst capacity. The game would be radically different
I think I just assumed they were getting out dps'd because Kar's got buffed, not because the garands were weak, but garands do feel like they're in a weird spot in the sense that they don't consistently perform especially well or poorly. The magazine size being the issue actually makes a lot of sense, as I think when they land their shots the gun kills stupidly quickly, but when they miss their relatively few hit rolls, they just get walked on by pretty much any unit. I think the best way to handle this issue is to wait until the beta goes live, focusing on the last few big issues (if there's any left aside from vsturms possibly still being stupidly strong, haven't gotten to play much since the recent MG modes patch), and then letting the beta transition back into a sort of sandbox for testing smaller changes like this that don't take a ton of time to implement, but would have severe consequences if not done right the first time if they were on live. Garands probably don't need to get nerfed after the magazine size changes, as even if they overperform a bit compared to kar's, the BAR upgrade isn't comparable to the LMG's available to axis standard inf so it kinda evens out late game, still slightly favoring axis but thats makes sense since allies arguably have a slightly stronger early game, presumably intentionally.

And @Wald, as far as I can tell vet doesn't do shit for rifles in terms of raw combat performance, it just improves things like grenade range and rifle nade accuracy. Idk if you've tried using heavily vetted rifles against even vet 1 storms or grens, but it generally doesn't end well unless they are at barrelstuffing range with SMG's.

I'm only saying wait on changing the garand because I'm sure people are going to complain a lot more if it happens before beta goes live. I would also make sure to clearly state in changelogs that this was a bug fix, not a balance change.

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