beta

[Viper]

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3365&p=32173#p32172

This is going off topic now. Either return to the discussion of ammo upkeeps or make a new off topic.

so i create this topic to discuss this matter and avoid taking the other post offtopic.

the majority of players that we’ve talked with want these kinds of changes.

the majority of the people you talked to. but there are a lot more people out there. the people you talk to, are the minority......

where do you get your feedback from? forum only? what about other places on the internet? you should look for feedback in different places too.
because if you do that, you will know that players who like the beta are minority, not majority........or not as many as you think.

so far nearly every player (I can think of one exception but he likes the changes just not the current state of balance) who we know plays pvp and provides replays on this forum prefers the beta over regular version

even on forum, not few players expressed their disapproval of the beta balance. on different levels, but people like sukin, me, bk champion and tiger (although i know tiger said he liked the changes generally but disagrees with the balance state only, but thats something he can clarify more for himself when he is back) but overall i think all 4 players (excluding me) can be considered among the bk veterans, or im wrong

but let's look elsewhere, away from the forum and discord, what about this youtube comments from different channels?

ironglory is a German youtuber with around 600+ subs who plays bk mod pvp. and here is what he said about the beta:

and some more examples for opinions by other players:

so you should not only look for feedback on forum, but other places too.
you will find out so many important feedbacks + various opinions.

because it is more balanced.

beta is already more balanced than the regular version which was tuned for over 10 years? really??????

@Viper if you still think the beta is unplayable can you explain why? ¿And your experience on pvp beta games?

i already said that many times.
just look at the axis tds who take 1000 years to camo and compare with allied tds who go invisible in seconds. or look to the rubbish propaganda and blitzkrieg doctrines being eaten by airborne company. specifically propaganda. or look to the poor design of infantry and armor doctrines. or look to what happened to anti tank guns generally. now they are handicapped. or look to what happened to vehicles with slow wheels over craters and slow turrets too.....the list can go forever.

[mofetagalactica]

If you think propaganda is weak, i would just say play the game and get good lmao.

Problem to get heavy tanks? Even now when you get cheap volksturms that has been touched and touched over to be more resilent, jezz you know nothing viper this doc is slowly starting to get OP as fuck.

Axis TD's dosnt even need to have super fast recammo most of them has enough armor to survive 76mm's or just ONE SHOOT any of the Allied tanks on the first cammoed shot.

LOOK AT THAT WOLF DUDE SAYING THAT THE JACKSONS ARE BEASTS WHEN THEY'RE THE MOST UNPOPULAR BIG TD's OF ALLIES ON THE CURRENT VERSION EVERYONE JUST RUSHES TO PERSHING AND FORGETS ABOUT JACKSONS EXISTING , LMAO WHAT ARE THOSE "EXAMPLES"?

And about ironglory? Dude did u saw his vids playing BK mod? All of them againts noobs , played on bridge maps and BK FUN MOD to get double res? So just because he has subs he suddently knows whats balanced or not? Let me guess he must have played a few beta games againts AI with fun mod enabled lmaoooooo

Go bring decent proof, play yourself againts experienced players and record it its not that hard.

Play the good damn latest alpha, and stop screaming over and over.

[Viper]

Problem to get heavy tanks? Even now when you get cheap volksturms that has been touched and touched over to be more resilent, jezz you know nothing viper this doc is slowly starting to get OP as fuck.

50.cal jeep, 101 airborne with flame grenades and snipers + m4 with hellcat........and go for airstrike just in case game lasts longer.
but i guarantee propaganda doctrine won't last longer than 20 minutes. it will lose as soon as the first or the second sherman is on the field.

Axis TD's dosnt even need to have super fast recammo most of them has enough armor to survive 76mm's or just ONE SHOOT any of the Allied tanks on the first cammoed shot.

so your m10 never 1 shot panzer4? and your jackson or achilles never 1 shot tigers and panthers?
axis tds should not hide fast.......but allied tds should recammo super fast because they wear invisible hats?

LOOK AT THAT WOLF DUDE SAYING THAT THE JACKSONS ARE BEASTS WHEN THEY'RE THE MOST UNPOPULAR BIG TD's OF ALLIES ON THE CURRENT VERSION EVERYONE JUST RUSHES TO PERSHING AND FORGETS ABOUT JACKSONS EXISTING , LMAO WHAT ARE THOSE "EXAMPLES"?

jackson always best counter vs panzer4 spam.

And about ironglory? Dude did u saw his vids playing BK mod? All of them againts noobs , played on bridge maps and BK FUN MOD to get double res? So just because he has subs he suddently knows whats balanced or not? Let me guess he must have played a few beta games againts AI with fun mod enabled

are all the players who play beta and give positive feedback experienced? no......so all feedbacks should be taken into account.

Play the good damn latest alpha, and stop screaming over and over.

i'm not screaming........you are.
and i cant play the alpha, because devs share it only with their "friends".
but i have played the beta many times in pvp. and i dont want to play it again.

[mofetagalactica]

1) 50.cals jeep = countered by starting 37mm/37mm HT/20mm armored car.
2) 101 and snipers countered by mobs of volksturms if used well.
3) M10 and Shermans countered by Final stug 4 vers wich can cammo without vet.

You have the tools use them well, if it dosn't work then you must play more.

Alpha is easy to get just ask it on the general group on discord is open to anyone that wants to do real pvp tests.

[Viper]

1) 50.cals jeep = countered by starting 37mm/37mm HT/20mm armored car.

3) M10 and Shermans countered by Final stug 4 vers wich can cammo without vet.

1) propaganda only has 37mm anti tank gun. good player will never fall to that with his armored 50cal jeep.


3) m10 can cammo without vet too. but has flank speed and rehides in 5 seconds......stug takes 100000 years to rehide.

[mofetagalactica]

1) 50.cals jeep = countered by starting 37mm/37mm HT/20mm armored car.

3) M10 and Shermans countered by Final stug 4 vers wich can cammo without vet.

1) propaganda only has 37mm anti tank gun. good player will never fall to that with his armored 50cal jeep.


3) m10 can cammo without vet too. but has flank speed and rehides in 5 seconds......stug takes 100000 years to rehide.

1) oh right you only tested the first version of the beta, you still have the 37mm ht there tho.
3) again, stug can be used multipurpose to kill infantry and tanks different kinds of things wich is why m10 is like it is and stug it is what it is, but if you're talking about early sherman appearing then it would be very weird for him to suddently get an early sherman and a m10 at the same time unless he hacks for fuel.

Also seems like you still want to follow the "rush for things" like in live version, keep playing that way and you will be ez gg in 15 min.

[Viper]

allied and axis tds should take equal time to rehide. and beta is totally unplayable until issues like these are fixed. simple and clear. you dont go rework doctrines or tweak balance when basic things are broken.

[Walderschmidt]

Viper vs Figree (Airborne vs Terror) on alpha when?


Wald

[MarKr]

where do you get your feedback from? forum only? what about other places on the internet? you should look for feedback in different places too.
because if you do that, you will know that players who like the beta are minority, not majority........or not as many as you think.

No, we shouldn't. If they have a problem, they should present it here - that's what the forum is for. I'm not gonna search through comment section of all youtube videos about BK to see if maybe somebody somewhere had something to say about balance.

even on forum, not few players expressed their disapproval of the beta balance. on different levels, but people like sukin, me, bk champion and tiger (although i know tiger said he liked the changes generally but disagrees with the balance state only, but thats something he can clarify more for himself when he is back) but overall i think all 4 players (excluding me) can be considered among the bk veterans, or im wrong

I don't know what officially qualifies as a game "veteran" but, honestly, what does such a title have to do with a game balance opinion if such players barely played the beta? sukin wrote here somewhere that he hasn't played the beta at all. I haven't seen any replays from you though from your posts it seems you maybe played a few matches in the first beta and you haven't played much or at all since then. Just as you said about Tiger - he said he liked the changes and complained about balance but people also replied to him that most of the things he complained about were caused by him not adjusting his playstyle to the changes.

I'm getting tired of these topics because it is the same stuff from the same people over and over again. Some people don't like the changes because they preffered the state where there were units which you always rushed for and there was no reason to build anything else. The beta aimed to change this so people who dislike the changes for this reason will dislike the mod when the beta turns into live version. I am sorry but we're not getting back to the system where so many units were obsolete.
Then there are people who played a few games, didn't like the changes and now keep complaining even though they don't play the beta at all. These people need to upload replays to show us that their complaints are valid. If something makes a game "unplayable" it must be something that is present in every match you play so it shouldn't be so hard to jump into a PVP game and get a few replays which will clearly show the problem.

[Viper]

If something makes a game "unplayable" it must be something that is present in every match you play so it shouldn't be so hard to jump into a PVP game and get a few replays which will clearly show the problem.

problems like this one dont need replays to prove..........

allied and axis tds should take equal time to rehide.

the td balance is ruined.

[MarKr]

I am not asking for replays/proofs of longer re-camo times of Axis TDs. I am asking for a replay which demonstrates how the longer re-camo times are making the game unplayable.

(different re-camo times of TDs)
the td balance is ruined.

You take two things that they have in common (they are TDs and can camo) and based on that you want to give them same re-camo times. What about all the factors that make them different? For example their weapon strength, armor+HP and overall survivability, possible usage in other roles than just ambush, anti-infantry protection, etc.
Generally speaking, Axis TDs are stronger. Why do they need same short re-hide times as the weaker TDs of Allies? Or if we take it from the other side - why the weaker TDs of Allies should have as long re-hide timers as the stronger Axis TDs?

[Viper]

You take two things that they have in common (they are TDs and can camo) and based on that you want to give them same re-camo times. What about all the factors that make them different? For example their weapon strength, armor+HP and overall survivability, possible usage in other roles than just ambush, anti-infantry protection, etc.
Generally speaking, Axis TDs are stronger. Why do they need same short re-hide times as the weaker TDs of Allies? Or if we take it from the other side - why the weaker TDs of Allies should have as long re-hide timers as the stronger Axis TDs?

axis tds are not better.
they have pros and cons compared to allied tds.

only 1 axis td has protection against infantry, stug4. but jagdpanzer, jagdpanther, hetzer, none of them have high explosive.
achilles is one of the best tds in the game, and it has flank seed + high explosive....and affordable price.
flank speed can allow allied tds to escape danger, like rushing panzershrecks. or quickly chase retreating low health axis tanks.
axis tds take longer to reload. and have no turrets. which means that any immobilization means instant death.
stug4 and hetzer will die with single 76 shot, or 2 bazookas......so armor isn't really going to save you all the time.


so, no. axis tds are not better.
and allied tds should be treated equally to axis tds for camo settings.

[MarKr]

I could run the numbers to show what the chances are of Stug in camo to kill a Sherman and what the chances are of M10 in camo killing PIV H but I don't suppose you would take that as an argument...am I right?

Anyway, give me some replays where I can see how this longer re-hide time makes it absolutely impossible to play the game. No sarcasm intended here, I genuenly want to see such games.

Talking of replays...

50.cal jeep, 101 airborne with flame grenades and snipers + m4 with hellcat........and go for airstrike just in case game lasts longer.
but i guarantee propaganda doctrine won't last longer than 20 minutes. it will lose as soon as the first or the second sherman is on the field.

Viper vs Figree (Airborne vs Terror) on alpha when?

Would you play this match? I would like to see at least 3 games to rule out "luck/RNG" factor. However, if you can guarantee that Airborne will crush Propaganda in 20 minutes it should be easy win for you and in about one hour you will have all the material needed to tell me "here's the proof and now shut up"

[Warhawks97]

Generally i would say that allied TD do have some decent pros over axis td.

However, since ambush stat standardisation few patches ago allied suffered more because they did need the double pen boost due to their weak basic pen chances in general. Now pen boost dropped from 200% to 25% and thus units like M10 wolverine will bounce even from ambush from tank IV´s. With 200% pen boost they had 99% pen chance vs Tank IV H when shooting from ambush, now its more arrund 60% or so.
Also the auto flank mode got removed from allied TD which made instant escapes easily after ambush shot. Now you got to deactivate ambush ability first and then pay 35 ammo for flank speed. Often you are just not fast enough.
Axis TD dont suffer from pen boost drop as their guns have often 100% pen chance anyway or the 25% boost is enough to boost it to that level again. In short: Allied TD suffered from pen boost drop as they needed them, axis had overkill pen chances before and are fine even with only 25% pen boost.

And what kind of protection they have against inf is Viper asking? Well:
1. Their armor can bounce zooks
2. allied inf does not have schrecks.


On top of that i was usually far less in need for axis TD as i was as ally. I couldnt play a game without M10 but i could play without any td when playing WH. Thats simply bc axis normal tanks are far better suited for defense as allied. A Panther or Tiger or even Panzer IV H was a powerfull defense unit due to its sheer armor and gun power. A sherman was and is quite a usless defensive anti tank unit, esspecially when Panthers come arround. Only Pershing provide a good offense and defense.

So there are a lot of additional factors when talking about TD´s and not just by comparing their re-camo time.


However, i would still say that axis shouldnt lack behind allied TD when it comes to "who has the better ambush capability". They can be different in every other aspect, but not in terms of camo.

[Viper]

Would you play this match?

of course i would. and i would like him to play luftwaffe too.
because i think the new luftwaffe is very delicious for airborne. even the old luftwaffe was delicious for airborne in 1vs1 but it was more challenging.

the new axis doctrines are not more than "shooting practice" for infantry and airborne. specifically propaganda and luftwaffe.

However, i would still say that axis shouldnt lack behind allied TD when it comes to "who has the better ambush capability". They can be different in every other aspect, but not in terms of camo.

agreed.

[MarKr]

Luftwaffe has been just introduced so some changes are expected. Propaganda doctrine has been released for some time and tweaked several times so I am more interested in its performance for now. Can you start with the Propaganda vs AB matches? You said you were sure Propaganda would lose in 15 minutes so there must some blatant disbalance in that scenario...mofeta plays relatively often, I'm sure you'll manage to set up some matches if you contact him here or on Discord.
I'm looking forward to the replays.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Clear this thread logic a bit for me please

AB doc will be eventually changed too, so fact that it is either better or worse against Luft, shouldn't effect current Luft change progression, like critically effect?
It is rather vice-versa. AB, if it is still/now dominating should be tweaked accordingly to the newer stuff.
Right? Or at least, that isn't how one should make an argument, in case..of discussing two doctrines.

[CGarr]

Would you play this match?

of course i would. and i would like him to play luftwaffe too.
because i think the new luftwaffe is very delicious for airborne. even the old luftwaffe was delicious for airborne in 1vs1 but it was more challenging.

the new axis doctrines are not more than "shooting practice" for infantry and airborne. specifically propaganda and luftwaffe.

I want to see this