[opinion] new Terror & Blitz

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Warhawks97
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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Warhawks97 » 18 Sep 2019, 21:27

Tiger1996 wrote:
I know exactly the situations you are referring to.. and I have experienced them, however; this doesn't justify extending the re-hide time to insane levels or completely killing the role of camo in the game, if anything... Other solutions could be found, but the re-hide time shouldn't be too long.
After all, TDs and AT guns are meant to ambush and kill tanks.. so that's what they do! The counter is spotters.


I think it does. Revealing itself and expect to get "forgotten" by the enemie just a few seconds later is just silly. Shoot, reveal, relocate, try again. I counted roughly 15 seconds re-hide now, perhaps a bit more and i was fine with it.

Also how does it "killing the role of camo"? Once you found a spot and click ambush button it needs just 9 seconds to camo. If that would take 60 seconds, that would really destroy the camo system.
There is a huge difference between "going camo" and to go "re-camo" mid combat. What you want is a quick re-hide which is quite a nasty thing to see a tank that just fired for only such a short time that you have barely time to shoot back at it before it goes re-camo. We could just as well add a "perma-camo". That would surely not killing the role of camo, wouldnt it? This is a ww2 game, not a "Predator" movie.



Also spotters? funny, usually right in front of such guns are enemie spotters so that the guns can use their max range. So you end up all day long in a spotter vs spotter showdown trying to kill the enemie spotter before you can get to detect the enemie hidden units and to go finally into combat. Thats always truly exciting.

The role of spotters is to spot enemie units, the role of detecting units is left for reconassaince units such like bikes, jeeps and stuff alike.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby mofetagalactica » 19 Sep 2019, 05:23

Warhawks97 wrote:
Tiger1996 wrote:
I know exactly the situations you are referring to.. and I have experienced them, however; this doesn't justify extending the re-hide time to insane levels or completely killing the role of camo in the game, if anything... Other solutions could be found, but the re-hide time shouldn't be too long.
After all, TDs and AT guns are meant to ambush and kill tanks.. so that's what they do! The counter is spotters.


I think it does. Revealing itself and expect to get "forgotten" by the enemie just a few seconds later is just silly. Shoot, reveal, relocate, try again. I counted roughly 15 seconds re-hide now, perhaps a bit more and i was fine with it.

Also how does it "killing the role of camo"? Once you found a spot and click ambush button it needs just 9 seconds to camo. If that would take 60 seconds, that would really destroy the camo system.
There is a huge difference between "going camo" and to go "re-camo" mid combat. What you want is a quick re-hide which is quite a nasty thing to see a tank that just fired for only such a short time that you have barely time to shoot back at it before it goes re-camo. We could just as well add a "perma-camo". That would surely not killing the role of camo, wouldnt it? This is a ww2 game, not a "Predator" movie.



Also spotters? funny, usually right in front of such guns are enemie spotters so that the guns can use their max range. So you end up all day long in a spotter vs spotter showdown trying to kill the enemie spotter before you can get to detect the enemie hidden units and to go finally into combat. Thats always truly exciting.

The role of spotters is to spot enemie units, the role of detecting units is left for reconassaince units such like bikes, jeeps and stuff alike.


HAHAHAHHAA omg i cried reading this, and yes it always ends up in a spotter vs spotter showdown (at least vs experienced players), i wonder if someday we could have a buff on these counter-recon units such as jeeps, schiwms, bikes, etc (something like just buffing the reveal range)

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 19 Sep 2019, 13:51

Funny thing is that WM anyway has earlier access for Stugs and so on in concurent numbers so its much easier to hold ground. Lots of boring spam plays are based on that.

I'd agree with Warhaks on this, but not in a way that he says, rather that lol

Hetzers are just easy buildable mobile pain. Stugs the same. No matter if they decloak too fast or not, its just they are plenty all the time.
M10's and alike Allies vehicles never come for the same role, people are using Axis counterparts. Comparing them is irrelevant imo.
"You can argue only with like-minded people"

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Viper
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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Viper » 20 Sep 2019, 12:15

current rehide time is more than 15 seconds. tank hunters are sitting ducks. no point to camouflage when you can always see where they are hiding.

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Warhawks97
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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Warhawks97 » 20 Sep 2019, 12:50

Viper wrote:current rehide time is more than 15 seconds. tank hunters are sitting ducks. no point to camouflage when you can always see where they are hiding.



Dude, the Initial camo time has NOT (!!) been changed at all!. So going into camo with a unit takes just as long as it did before.


And yes, if you dont move your fucking TD once it revealed itself, it is indeed a sitting duck. Your opponent would start shooting with arty at it anyway or send infantry in before sending a second tank once he is aware of the its presence at that location. The only reason you want an instant re-camo is that you want the tank to go camo mid-combat again once it got revealed after firing. That has nothing to do with the actual ambush of enemies. Its all about easy no-brainer defending with as little micro managment as necessary from the defenders point of view.



So again, if you want to prepare an ambush, you can send out a tank, click on ambush button and the tank is camouflaged in about 9 seconds, just as it had been for years.


Sorry for getting aggressive, but re-camo has nothing to do with actually preparing an ambush which is just as easily done as before.

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Tiger1996
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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Tiger1996 » 20 Sep 2019, 16:36

There is no need for anyone to act aggressively, because from what i'm sure about is.. it was never intended for the re-hide time to be THAT long, as it was actually an over-sight that accidentally got implemented this way when they managed to make Axis TDs reveal themselves on the first shot... The proof is; it was never mentioned in any change-logs! So, i believe devs will be taking a look into it anyways.

And revealing on the first shot is already a big nerf to Axis TDs, making them having to re-locate more often.. but staying 15 seconds or more in order to re-hide even when there are no enemies around, is not how it should be.

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Warhawks97
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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Warhawks97 » 20 Sep 2019, 19:09

Tiger1996 wrote:
And revealing on the first shot is already a big nerf to Axis TDs, making them having to re-locate more often.. but staying 15 seconds or more in order to re-hide even when there are no enemies around, is not how it should be.


but disappearing when there are like two tanks just a few meters away isnt how it should be either. Or increase detection range so that they wont camo when the enemie is just one barrel lenght away from it.

I like it the way it is currently. Even if its an oversight. I also wonder how it could happen accidentially bc you actually change a one number which is the shots before reveal. Re-camo timer is somewhere else, but who knows.

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Tiger1996
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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Tiger1996 » 20 Sep 2019, 19:36

increasing detection range sounds legit, however.. too long re-hide time is absurd.

I would be ok with increasing the detection range, but re-hide time shouldn't be more than 9 seconds maximum.

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Warhawks97
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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Warhawks97 » 20 Sep 2019, 19:42

Tiger1996 wrote:increasing detection range sounds legit, however.. too long re-hide time is absurd.

I would be ok with increasing the detection range, but re-hide time shouldn't be more than 9 seconds maximum.



One thing that wont get implemented, but how i would like it, is that ambush ability gets disabled once fired. There will be only "follow" on modifiers like faster reload for the second shot and reduced received accuracy for a while or until shot number two is fired. After that, if you want to hide your TD/AT gun or whatever again, you would need to activate the ambush ability manually after the cooldown has passed.

Thats bc you have given away your ambush and every sane solider would keep in mind "there is an unit" untill they see it moving away. But quick re-camo is like the soldiers in the field have a disabled short term memory.

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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby kwok » 20 Sep 2019, 20:12


Tor
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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Tor » 25 Sep 2019, 16:48

Volkssturm?)
1) Volksgrenadiers much much better because have lmg, i think they almost useless with MP-40, survivability to low.
2) Volkssturm even worse with MP-40... its MP, CP, Ammo eaters and free XP for the enemy.
3) 1CP MP-40??? and after that i should pay full price? this madness))
4) Engineers better) just because can repair.

Solutions
1) halved manpower unkeep
2) Repair or slow repair.
3) Delete 1CP for MP-40 and faust.
Or combine MP-40+Faus for 1CP and give repair for another 1CP.

MEFISTO
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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby MEFISTO » 06 Oct 2019, 03:43

Tiger1996 wrote:I don't want to disappoint anyone, but i just want to say the following...

At first, this whole re-work crusade started with the philosophy of "let's make all doctrines well-rounded for 1v1s" but what I can see is nothing of that at all, but maybe even the complete contrary.

Now that we have all the 3 doctrines "re-worked" in both USA and WH factions... i think it's safe to say that the weakest 2 doctrines right now are Terror and Blitz doctrines.

Most particularly, the old Blitz doctrine (v5.1.7) is MUCH more "well-rounded" than the new re-worked one;

And you don't even need to compare too much, it's really obvious with just a quick look...

- Off-map battlegroup support? Nerfed.. only brings Pz3 tanks, no more Stugs or Pz4 or any Storms. And Pz3 itself is nerfed...

- Pz4.H spam? Delayed.. requires more CPs now.

- Stug4? Delayed.

- Early available Tiger1 tanks with cool abilities? Gone.

- StormTroops? Nerfed even more. (no LMGs now + already can't crawl except with veterancy unlock)

- Ammo usage? Nerfed with adding ammo upkeeps for arty units. (i know this one is a global change though)

- Stuh? Nerfed.. along with Stupa.

- AT rifle boys? (only available in Blitz doc now AND nerfed as well)

- Grenadiers? Nerfed, no more STGs.

The only good thing is adding the Stuka airstrike, but that doesn't do anything anyways.

What about Terror doctrine?

- No more Grenadiers. How are you supposed to fight Rangers, Airborne or even Combat Engineers? I don't know.

- No more AT rifle squad... How are you going to counter buffed 50.cals now? No idea.

- Not to mention Axis TDs generally are much weaker now.. 1 ambush shot and insane re-hide time, they almost never re-camouflage.


So far, infantry doctrine is probably the best at the moment, Armor doc is weaker than it used to be though.. but still better than Blitz & Terror.

What are the solutions you might wonder?
I don't know... I prefer the current balance in v5.1.7 to be honest.

That doesn't mean that i hate the currently ongoing campaign of re-working doctrines .. but i just need to remind you that it's still TOO far away from being "playable" in terms of balance.. and it doesn't seem to be going the right path, just to begin with.

Solutions & suggestions maybe come later, but little suggestion for now about Terror:

>>> normal Tigers unlock could be 3 CPs, instead of 4 CPs and Tiger ACE could be 2 CPs instead of just 1 CP, so normal Tigers are accessed earlier and from there.. the player would need to decide to spend further 2 CPs for "Tiger buffs" unlock or "Tiger ACE" but obviously most players will choose Tiger ACE so I suggest making "TIger buff" unlock more useful by making it allow access to ALRS ability for Tiger1s, instead of requiring veterancy.


Replays of the latest BETA will be provided later as well.

100% agree with tiger


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