[opinion] new Terror & Blitz

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Tiger1996
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[opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Tiger1996 » 15 Sep 2019, 00:00

I don't want to disappoint anyone, but i just want to say the following...

At first, this whole re-work crusade started with the philosophy of "let's make all doctrines well-rounded for 1v1s" but what I can see is nothing of that at all, but maybe even the complete contrary.

Now that we have all the 3 doctrines "re-worked" in both USA and WH factions... i think it's safe to say that the weakest 2 doctrines right now are Terror and Blitz doctrines.

Most particularly, the old Blitz doctrine (v5.1.7) is MUCH more "well-rounded" than the new re-worked one;

And you don't even need to compare too much, it's really obvious with just a quick look...

- Off-map battlegroup support? Nerfed.. only brings Pz3 tanks, no more Stugs or Pz4 or any Storms. And Pz3 itself is nerfed...

- Pz4.H spam? Delayed.. requires more CPs now.

- Stug4? Delayed.

- Early available Tiger1 tanks with cool abilities? Gone.

- StormTroops? Nerfed even more. (no LMGs now + already can't crawl except with veterancy unlock)

- Ammo usage? Nerfed with adding ammo upkeeps for arty units. (i know this one is a global change though)

- Stuh? Nerfed.. along with Stupa.

- AT rifle boys? (only available in Blitz doc now AND nerfed as well)

- Grenadiers? Nerfed, no more STGs.

The only good thing is adding the Stuka airstrike, but that doesn't do anything anyways.

What about Terror doctrine?

- No more Grenadiers. How are you supposed to fight Rangers, Airborne or even Combat Engineers? I don't know.

- No more AT rifle squad... How are you going to counter buffed 50.cals now? No idea.

- Not to mention Axis TDs generally are much weaker now.. 1 ambush shot and insane re-hide time, they almost never re-camouflage.


So far, infantry doctrine is probably the best at the moment, Armor doc is weaker than it used to be though.. but still better than Blitz & Terror.

What are the solutions you might wonder?
I don't know... I prefer the current balance in v5.1.7 to be honest.

That doesn't mean that i hate the currently ongoing campaign of re-working doctrines .. but i just need to remind you that it's still TOO far away from being "playable" in terms of balance.. and it doesn't seem to be going the right path, just to begin with.

Solutions & suggestions maybe come later, but little suggestion for now about Terror:

>>> normal Tigers unlock could be 3 CPs, instead of 4 CPs and Tiger ACE could be 2 CPs instead of just 1 CP, so normal Tigers are accessed earlier and from there.. the player would need to decide to spend further 2 CPs for "Tiger buffs" unlock or "Tiger ACE" but obviously most players will choose Tiger ACE so I suggest making "TIger buff" unlock more useful by making it allow access to ALRS ability for Tiger1s, instead of requiring veterancy.


Replays of the latest BETA will be provided later as well.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby mofetagalactica » 15 Sep 2019, 02:00

Where are the replays?

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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby mofetagalactica » 15 Sep 2019, 02:30

I feel like the T1 - T2 got sucesfully extended i feel like the 76mm sherman could get delayed even more like the Pz4 (wich wil also delay the Jumbo wich is good)

The last info i had from ammo upkeep is that is going to be changed to almost half of what the current upkeep is, the system works but ofc it will need tweaking.

About storms i think they're fine as they are , we should focus on the rangers with the hability of crawl instead, maybe doing the same thing as we have with storms wich will only get the hability to crawl after unlocking the "veterancy ranger unlock" (The last CP unlock in the ranger path) so both of them would be able to crawl at a more reasonable time in-game.

I like the new mecanics of the stupa, stuh,105 sherman, and maybe churchill avre next?

Stug4 is fine as a cp unlockable (i would recommend a price reduction on all pz3 versions tho kinda at the level of what the pz4F got)

Tigers are fine this way, Tiger ace is super easy to adquire on the new propaganda doc wich is super strong in 2v2 team games.

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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby The New BK Champion » 15 Sep 2019, 08:15

I also don't like the beta changes. They are just done for the sake of being done, that's my feeling. There is always a talk "we listen to players' feedback when we change something". Yeah, unless the feedback is "don't change". Then devs are like "nah bro, we do this anyway, plz be constructive."

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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby MarKr » 15 Sep 2019, 12:46

I'm gonna wait for replays to react to Tiger's points.
I would like to remind, though, that the reworks often require to play the doctrines in different ways than before the rework, so if you were used to often going directly for something (e.g. PIV spam or Tiger/Panther rush in BK doc) it might be possible to do it even now but it might be (and most likely is) a huge gamble. In some situations it might work against your opponent but in other cases it is not such a good move as it used to be - this, however, does not mean that there are not other or completely new ways to deal with opponents.
From the feedback we've got so far it seems that players who stick with the "old ways/formulas" of playing often complain about the new doctrines in general. Players who grasped the concept of "forget the old formula and find a new formula" in general don't have much problems with the new doctrines but rather suggest changing only specific aspects which they feel don't work well.

mofetagalactica wrote:About storms i think they're fine as they are , we should focus on the rangers with the hability of crawl instead, maybe doing the same thing as we have with storms wich will only get the hability to crawl after unlocking the "veterancy ranger unlock" (The last CP unlock in the ranger path) so both of them would be able to crawl at a more reasonable time in-game.
Is the current set up really so problematic? Storms are still pretty good infantry, with the highest HP pool from the start, their K98 rifles received same accuracy buffs as Grenadiers (they use the same weapon file so the changes applied to both) they can be spawned anywhere on the map from empty buildings, they have a special command squad which can boost them even further and with abilities which cancels suppression on them and make the storms almost impossible to re-suppress, take 25% less damage (stacks with the 25% less damage from Vet training) and shoot 50% faster (without any accuracy nerf!!!). The fact they can crawl only with the unlock doesn't really deminish their usefulness. They are mainly assault infantry for "head-to-head" combat (they start with rifles for mid-to-long range fights, can be upgraded for short range fights or Schrecks for covering flanks of your tanks from enemy tank-flanking attempts), the ability to crawl is an added bonus to their main role. You get nowhere near to this level of combat efficiency with Infiltration Rangers. They come equipped with SMGs and a Zooka and cannot change their loadout - this limits them to mostly only close range combat with occasional chance to shoot something with the bazooka but even from the camo, a single bazooka shot is usually (unless you hit the "5%" jackpot crit) not enough to kill even a medium tank. It has been mentioned that they can crawl with AT weapon while Storms cannot but at the same time you can find posts here mentioning how often zookas bounce off while for Schrecks it is quite rare to bounce off, at the same time Schrecks dealing more damage.
I don't think it is needed to set "same rules" for these units because they are simply different units with different purposes.

The New BK Champion wrote:There is always a talk "we listen to players' feedback when we change something". Yeah, unless the feedback is "don't change". Then devs are like "nah bro, we do this anyway, plz be constructive."
I don't know if you remeber this but before changing the Terror/Propaganda doctrine we made a poll, asking people what would they like the doctrine changed into. After about 30 people responded in the poll, you came up with "I don't want any changes" based on which kwok added exactly that option to the poll too (and unfortuantely it deleted the poll votes so people had to vote again). After that what was the result?
Poll results.jpg
I pressume that the one vote in the last option is yours and the only person I heard being strictly against changing anything is also you. So what exactly do you expect us to do? Make changes that will include demands of everyone in the community? In this case it would mean "changing the doctrine so that it contains piece of all the given options and at the same time not change it at all" which would be kind of "hard" to do.
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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Viper » 15 Sep 2019, 13:58

i like the initiative of the new changes and i agree with markr on how players need to forget old formulas and start developing new ways to play.

but i see what tiger is trying to imply on his post.
the changes are aiming to make the game pace "slower" by tuning down most units, although it can be better if the changes were aiming the opposite way.

example, instead of making units stronger on both sides and more capable of abilities, the developers always choose to make units weaker on both sides. old players with good micro skills will never like that.

if you want to understand me better, look at the way how you guys are thinking here......

MarKr wrote:Is the current set up really so problematic? Storms are still pretty good infantry, with the highest HP pool from the start, their K98 rifles received same accuracy buffs as Grenadiers (they use the same weapon file so the changes applied to both) they can be spawned anywhere on the map from empty buildings, they have a special command squad which can boost them even further and with abilities which cancels suppression on them and make the storms almost impossible to re-suppress, take 25% less damage (stacks with the 25% less damage from Vet training) and shoot 50% faster (without any accuracy nerf!!!). The fact they can crawl only with the unlock doesn't really deminish their usefulness. They are mainly assault infantry for "head-to-head" combat (they start with rifles for mid-to-long range fights, can be upgraded for short range fights or Schrecks for covering flanks of your tanks from enemy tank-flanking attempts), the ability to crawl is an added bonus to their main role. You get nowhere near to this level of combat efficiency with Infiltration Rangers. They come equipped with SMGs and a Zooka and cannot change their loadout - this limits them to mostly only close range combat with occasional chance to shoot something with the bazooka but even from the camo, a single bazooka shot is usually (unless you hit the "5%" jackpot crit) not enough to kill even a medium tank. It has been mentioned that they can crawl with AT weapon while Storms cannot but at the same time you can find posts here mentioning how often zookas bounce off while for Schrecks it is quite rare to bounce off, at the same time Schrecks dealing more damage.
I don't think it is needed to set "same rules" for these units because they are simply different units with different purposes.

ever thought......why infiltration rangers need to stay with restricted loadout in the first place? why not give them more freedom with the loadout and improve storms too so they become able to crawl without unlock ? why do you always think more about bringing both down to the same level instead of tuning both up? why not improve stormtroopers and 82nd airborne units too? or do they have to be restricted forever?

applying more restrictions only lead to more boring gamplay. but applying more units freedom will encourage players to find new approaches to play. you dont need to make things more balanced by making doctrines weaker and limited. you can make things balanced by making doctrines stronger.

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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Sep 2019, 15:14

Viper wrote:ever thought......why infiltration rangers need to stay with restricted loadout in the first place? why not give them more freedom with the loadout and improve storms too so they become able to crawl without unlock ? why do you always think more about bringing both down to the same level instead of tuning both up? why not improve stormtroopers and 82nd airborne units too? or do they have to be restricted forever?


Good point, but storms, rangers and stuff have already been the strongest units in BK for as long as i can remember. Upping them even more would end up in "clash of gods" at the end of the game again like it was years ago with normal core units completely disappearing and without standing any chance in combat against all the gods. And thats something that was also supposed to be changed and i think we went in the right direction.


applying more restrictions only lead to more boring gamplay. but applying more units freedom will encourage players to find new approaches to play. you dont need to make things more balanced by making doctrines weaker and limited. you can make things balanced by making doctrines stronger.


The restrictions i dont like are those with very hard limitations such as "unit limit 1".
Removing the one or the other weapon or changing them into a different one is not really a "very hard" restriction such as very harsh unit limitations.


And where got doctrines limited? ok, we dont have these one unit armies aka stupa anymore or capabilties got perhaps decreased in some areas, but overall the doctrines have maintained or even expanded their capabilties.

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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Walderschmidt » 15 Sep 2019, 16:53

I agree, Tiger Special buffs should give ALRS for Tiger at Vet 0.

Definitely feel like 76 sherman should get delayed a little bit.

Ammo upkeep being half would be boss.

I feel like AT boys should be in every doctrine now, or at least blitz and terror. Jeep spam is back with a vengeance baby! I think it's be nerfed enough by losing the 76mm AT shot and gating the grenade and smoke behind T3 unlock. And losing the MP40. And rightfully losing the overlooked super dooper camo bonus when in buildings. And getting its accuracy nerfed. Like holy shit, it fell down the nerf tree and hit every branch on the way down. And then someone came by with the nerf bat to beat the horse deader than a doornail.

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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Sep 2019, 19:40

Walderschmidt wrote:I agree, Tiger Special buffs should give ALRS for Tiger at Vet 0.

Definitely feel like 76 sherman should get delayed a little bit.

Ammo upkeep being half would be boss.


yes.

I feel like AT boys should be in every doctrine now, or at least blitz and terror. Jeep spam is back with a vengeance baby! I think it's be nerfed enough by losing the 76mm AT shot and gating the grenade and smoke behind T3 unlock. And losing the MP40. And rightfully losing the overlooked super dooper camo bonus when in buildings. And getting its accuracy nerfed. Like holy shit, it fell down the nerf tree and hit every branch on the way down. And then someone came by with the nerf bat to beat the horse deader than a doornail.

Wald


No.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3344

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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby The New BK Champion » 16 Sep 2019, 08:48

I agree with viper, you just keep making limitations on everything. It's not the problemu you actually change anything, but you are changing it into something far more boring. Like I said some time ago it starts to resemble chess - units differ with tier and their apperance, but you consecutively remove things that are "outstanding", special. And even if you leave them, you restrict them with so many limits, upkeeps, cp locks and nerfs, it's just stressful to play with such units.

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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Warhawks97 » 16 Sep 2019, 09:46

The New BK Champion wrote: but you consecutively remove things that are "outstanding", special.


Yeah, like Stupa. It was so "outstanding" and special that it was super boring to play against it. Always the same meta, rush Stupa, guard it with meatshiled and tada... or any other unit that was so outstanding that in every game everyone rushed for it outright bc going different ways didnt make sense at all.

I think we have now more units more special by adding abilities (eg suppressive fire for all lmgs) or fixing stats (let alone gun stats fixes like rear pen chances etc) than ever before where the game was reduced to a handfull super-multirole units that made 90% of the other units obsolete.

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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby The New BK Champion » 16 Sep 2019, 09:50

We are not arguing about semantics duuh

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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Warhawks97 » 17 Sep 2019, 15:36

Got my PC running again (at least for now) and tested Terror doc.

My thoughts and first impression:


1. The Panzerfaust unlock should really provide more than just a Panzerfaust upgrade for 50 ammo. Like instantly giving fausts to them or something. Perhaps even for volksgrens or at least dropping cost for volksgrens.

2. The officer is extremely versatile. He got binoculars, debuff on enemie inf, special Volkssturm buff ability, off-map arty strike and supervision.

Is the off map arty strike as 0 CP ability still necessary? Its extremely powerfull, clearing houses and emplacmants for sure and extremely hard hitting with no real escape chance. I would make stuff like supervision and off-map strike more doc related stuff. EG. the off-map strike would be a defensive doc officer thing that can only be called on friendly ground and changed into an off-map mortar strike that is less "orbit bombardment" like. Some sort of defensive support tool. For the propaganda officer a smoke call in would make more sense to cover the advance of your squishy infantry, esspecially during inspired assault. And supervision could be a BK doc officer thing that gets unlocked along with Tank-factory improvment.

But arty strike, supervision, de-buff on enemie and other abilities makes this officer a bit too crazy i would say.


3. The propaganda abilties can be quite abusive, esspecially in case you fight in friendly territory. Once you got your tiger tank you can invest most of the ammo into these abilities. I would add longer cooldowns here. Its also bugged with randomly infecting tanks on certain areas on the map where the ability got not used and even when the ability wasnt used for several minutes. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3338

The sector icon on the minimap is also quite large. I couldnt see much anymore. But thats a minor issue i would say.


4. Is it intended that this doc gets repair shops/bunkers? It seems like they are pretty quick in repairing. WH is going to hold a big advantage in terms of repair capabilties. CW has trouble maintaing repairs when they often have just one rep squad available and US falls behind with armor docs small rep squad adding lots of additional micro managment. Terror was quite easy once you got your forward base with one or two rep shops. You can maintain full controle over your tanks without bothering arround controlling your rep squads. WH is going to become very efficient in repairs and game style similiar to vcoh, where there was a tank fleet in front of some rep shops. Esspecially in teamfights that might become a huge advantage.
I would wish similiar forward rep shops of RE and armor doc as well. Perhaps not in the exact same fashion to the bunker looking rep shops but something similiar at least, like a forward sapper/engineer HQ or something. Forward maintance shops are a big luxury for players which then can pay full attention to their combat units. That was already a bit thing in vanilla coh.

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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Black Panther » 17 Sep 2019, 17:03

I hope volksturm unit will be more than just a clone of pioneers, that just caps faster and faster deploying.
Also, volks grens has defensive structures ability to be build to sum up their defensive role, why volksurm can't do the same? Maybe at least it could be unlocked via CP or by upgrading tier?
Also, it is a bit of too much complicating by playing with volksturm by micro-side. Upgrades to more men in the squad, is a good example of that

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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Walderschmidt » 17 Sep 2019, 20:34

^Squad upgrades to volksturm should automatically reinforce them. Otherwise you pay for it twice and it is a seriously annoying micro hassle.

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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Tiger1996 » 18 Sep 2019, 15:00

i'm short on time, so.. just a quick post for now.

Warhawks97 wrote:
Walderschmidt wrote:I agree, Tiger Special buffs should give ALRS for Tiger at Vet 0.

Definitely feel like 76 sherman should get delayed a little bit.

Ammo upkeep being half would be boss.


yes.

Yup, good to see those suggestions are being received positively.

in addition to the 3 points above mentioned by Walder:

- Pz3 turret rotation should be increased again; not as fast as it used to be, but not as slow as right now.

- Axis tank hunters should have less re-hide time, almost half as current.. it's already enough that they reveal on the first shot.

- i see no problems with WH AT squad being available in all WH factions, they die very quickly now and are extremely inaccurate.
- as compensation, US could have RL jeep in all doctrines, not just Armor doc.. aren't doctrines meant to be well-rounded after all ?

- Storms should require no unlock to crawl.
- 82nd Airborne should have passive camo.
- infiltration Rangers should have more flexible loadout.
And this won't turn any of them into "gods" or whatever...

- AB doc should have unlimited number of Hellcats, but plz no Jacksons.

i'd like to see how devs reach to those specific points, specifically that i can see majority of points are agreed by the most.

Given that both US and WH doctrines have all been re-worked... I would generally suggest to focus the upcoming BETA updates mainly on tuning those 2 factions accordingly, while sweeping glitches.. that's before moving to CW or PE, otherwise everyone will be so distracted.


Lastly, i guess i'd need more time until i provide latest BETA replays with detailed bug report.. more particularly with deeper feedback on the latest changes of Terror and AB docs.

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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby kwok » 18 Sep 2019, 15:51

Can we organize these thoughts in not a blanket general thread... among all the changes it’s legit hard to sift through rants. We can discuss those “specific points” on the “specific threads” they relate too... this whole thread is unfocused and covers so many topics.

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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Warhawks97 » 18 Sep 2019, 18:50

Tiger1996 wrote:Yup, good to see those suggestions are being received positively.


delay 76 shermans and less ammo upkeep is necessary. But the 76 gun needs to get buffed at least against Tank IV f2 and stubbies. In fights today i managed to take out 76 shermans head on with normal F2 which costs no CP and is cheaper than regular shermans. If i pay 3 CP for a 76 sherman, i do want some "bang" for it. I dont want to pay CP´s for something thats on pair with 0 CP axis tanks.


- Axis tank hunters should have less re-hide time, almost half as current.. it's already enough that they reveal on the first shot.



No, bc that would be like 7-8 seconds. That would just result in mid-combat re-hide bullshit we had. The tank would become invisible right at the time my tank wants to place the final kill shot and too close already to retreat back. I had such stupid scenarios (many others too) where they outnumbered the TD, went close with two shermans and then the TD suddenly disappeard. Mid-combat re-hide sucks... as if a gunner who just found its target and keeps track of it will lose it again right in the moment he wants to fire. As reload times are 7 seconds and more the chance for a TD to re-hide when he only received one shot from the enemie is huge. So a minimum of 15 seconds to re-hide is necessary (not only for axis TD´s but generally, like AT halftracks and stuff.)

- i see no problems with WH AT squad being available in all WH factions, they die very quickly now and are extremely inaccurate.


It doesnt matter how accurate it is, it keeps an denial weapon as long as a hit can take out a vehicle outright. No one runs into it hopping that the rifle doesnt trigger a hit which would mean insta death. Plus the fucking "infantry-clusterfuck" becomes a viable tactic again with HT and officer in the center and infantry+these rifles arround it and moving arround like a swarm.


- as compensation, US could have RL jeep in all doctrines, not just Armor doc.. aren't doctrines meant to be well-rounded after all ?


I see no reason for that+its a fundamental difference to have a 360 degree fire arc insta reaction weapon on an inf squad (that can use cover, hide in houses, retreat etc) or on a vehicle that takes time to turn 360 degree and fires slowly.


- Storms should require no unlock to crawl.


To be honest, i side with mark when he says that its just an additional tool for an already versatile and strong unit whose main purpose is to assault and to support tanks

- 82nd Airborne should have passive camo.


AB needs some camo tools in general.


- infiltration Rangers should have more flexible loadout.
And this won't turn any of them into "gods" or whatever...


They wouldnt be gods, but for what reason? There are normal rangers with flexible loadout, HMG ranger squad. Their original intend was similiar to that of commandos or lets say the british commandos brought the idea to create US Rangers. Commandos start with equipment that supports their role. And thats the same with these Infilitration Rangers.

- AB doc should have unlimited number of Hellcats, but plz no Jacksons.


Jacksons?

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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Tiger1996 » 18 Sep 2019, 19:30

delay 76 shermans and less ammo upkeep is necessary. But the 76 gun needs to get buffed at least against Tank IV f2 and stubbies. In fights today i managed to take out 76 shermans head on with normal F2 which costs no CP and is cheaper than regular shermans. If i pay 3 CP for a 76 sherman, i do want some "bang" for it. I dont want to pay CP´s for something thats on pair with 0 CP axis tanks.

That's justified.

No, bc that would be like 7-8 seconds. That would just result in mid-combat re-hide bullshit we had. The tank would become invisible right at the time my tank wants to place the final kill shot and too close already to retreat back. I had such stupid scenarios (many others too) where they outnumbered the TD, went close with two shermans and then the TD suddenly disappeard. Mid-combat re-hide sucks... as if a gunner who just found its target and keeps track of it will lose it again right in the moment he wants to fire. As reload times are 7 seconds and more the chance for a TD to re-hide when he only received one shot from the enemie is huge. So a minimum of 15 seconds to re-hide is necessary (not only for axis TD´s but generally, like AT halftracks and stuff.)

So, you want to make Allied TDs also take 15 seconds to re-hide as well as AT guns, etc?
No way... Otherwise you kill the purpose of "camo" in the game. There is something called spotters... People can use that.

- Regarding the Storms & Rangers,
Storms aren't great, they cost not few, require much ammo to become useful, and many command points to spend on them for no greater benefit.
And yet they die with 1 HE shot. Player can't risk paying too many CPs on them when there is much more important units to unlock in the doctrine.

- infiltration Rangers are actually better as they are armed to teeth by default, and this shouldn't be the case anymore.. they should have normal load-out and upgrades to purchase, giving them more freedom in terms of load-out at the same time.

- Regarding the WH AT squad, the new nerfed AT team can be killed head to head by most vehicles... Either they should be stronger in Blitz doc alone, or stay weak but available in all docs.

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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Warhawks97 » 18 Sep 2019, 19:42

Tiger1996 wrote:So, you want to make Allied TDs also take 15 seconds to re-hide as well as AT guns, etc?
No way... Otherwise you kill the purpose of "camo" in the game. There is something called spotters... People can use that.


Becoming invisible right in front of someones eyes is called magic or its some sort of super high tec technology which can make tanks get invisible right in front of you. I doubt Tank destroyer commanders have magical capabilties and i dont think any sort of high-tec exists at that time to achieve that.

So yes, i want it for all ambush units, even for inf. It sucks that a soldier gets invisible mid combat when he reloads the thompson, being the last survivor of a fight and then shreds a passing squad that was just engaged in a firefight with that unit. Meanwhile, soldiers that get invisble mit combat sometimes stop shooting at enemies too far away to trigger the revealing.

I mean you can shoot from a position, stop shooting and belive that enemies will have forgotten that you were there.


And the "purpose of cammo" is to hide somewhere before the enemie gets there and to prepare an ambush and not to camo when the enemie is already shooting at you.

I would even increase the time it takes to hide for the first time from 9-10 seconds to 15-20 seconds. Too often TD´s drive into an hole or crater when attacking and becoming invisible quickly while being actually the attacker, best even right in front of an AT gun (no joke). Ive seen 76 and 17 pdrs bouncing/missing on a IV/70, then IV/70 gets invsible right in front of them and ponding the AT gun which magically lost track of it.



- Regarding the Storms & Rangers,
Storms aren't great, they cost not few, require much ammo to become useful, and many command points to spend on them for no greater benefit.
And yet they die with 1 HE shot. Player can't risk paying too many CPs on them when there is much more important units to unlock in the doctrine.



95 HP, elite weapons, nice abilities, house spawn and that for 2 CP isnt that bad. In the support you can get Long barreld cheap tank IV, Pumas, Tank III.. Thats quite something. Infiltration rangers that crawl invisible cost 4 CP. For that ammount you can get the leader squad and HT or the special storm infiltration squad.


- infiltration Rangers are actually better as they are armed to teeth by default, and this shouldn't be the case anymore.. they should have normal load-out and upgrades to purchase, giving them more freedom in terms of load-out at the same time.


And then what? We do have normal rangers already which you can/have to upgrade as you wish. Its like saying that Storm suppression squad shall first buy its lmgs.

The default equipment of the suppression squad matches its role: Fire support which gives them two lmg for free. The Infiltration Rangers squad role is to infiltrate and to engage the enemie in close combat. Thus they get their close range equipment.

- Regarding the WH AT squad, the new nerfed AT team can be killed head to head by most vehicles... Either they should be stronger in Blitz doc alone, or stay week but available in all docs.


I gave an extended answer here in the special topic. I am not gonna rewrite it here.

Walderschmidt
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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Walderschmidt » 18 Sep 2019, 19:52

Warhawks97 wrote:delay 76 shermans and less ammo upkeep is necessary. But the 76 gun needs to get buffed at least against Tank IV f2 and stubbies. In fights today i managed to take out 76 shermans head on with normal F2 which costs no CP and is cheaper than regular shermans. If i pay 3 CP for a 76 sherman, i do want some "bang" for it. I dont want to pay CP´s for something thats on pair with 0 CP axis tanks.


Maybe you just outplayed the guy? My PIV F2s get shredded by 76 Shermans and the only time my stubby PIV/IIIs ever get a 76 Sherman is if I get a lucky HEAT shot.

Warhawks97 wrote:No, bc that would be like 7-8 seconds. That would just result in mid-combat re-hide bullshit we had. The tank would become invisible right at the time my tank wants to place the final kill shot and too close already to retreat back. I had such stupid scenarios (many others too) where they outnumbered the TD, went close with two shermans and then the TD suddenly disappeard. Mid-combat re-hide sucks... as if a gunner who just found its target and keeps track of it will lose it again right in the moment he wants to fire. As reload times are 7 seconds and more the chance for a TD to re-hide when he only received one shot from the enemie is huge. So a minimum of 15 seconds to re-hide is necessary (not only for axis TD´s but generally, like AT halftracks and stuff.)


No issue with this. I haven't had any issues in my experience with this.

Wald

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Viper
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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Viper » 18 Sep 2019, 20:08

Walderschmidt wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:delay 76 shermans and less ammo upkeep is necessary. But the 76 gun needs to get buffed at least against Tank IV f2 and stubbies. In fights today i managed to take out 76 shermans head on with normal F2 which costs no CP and is cheaper than regular shermans. If i pay 3 CP for a 76 sherman, i do want some "bang" for it. I dont want to pay CP´s for something thats on pair with 0 CP axis tanks.


Maybe you just outplayed the guy? My PIV F2s get shredded by 76 Shermans and the only time my stubby PIV/IIIs ever get a 76 Sherman is if I get a lucky HEAT shot.

agreed....f2 is too bad already.

Walderschmidt wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:No, bc that would be like 7-8 seconds. That would just result in mid-combat re-hide bullshit we had. The tank would become invisible right at the time my tank wants to place the final kill shot and too close already to retreat back. I had such stupid scenarios (many others too) where they outnumbered the TD, went close with two shermans and then the TD suddenly disappeard. Mid-combat re-hide sucks... as if a gunner who just found its target and keeps track of it will lose it again right in the moment he wants to fire. As reload times are 7 seconds and more the chance for a TD to re-hide when he only received one shot from the enemie is huge. So a minimum of 15 seconds to re-hide is necessary (not only for axis TD´s but generally, like AT halftracks and stuff.)


No issue with this. I haven't had any issues in my experience with this.

yes.......me neither.

@warhawk

why would anyone attack camo td without scout???
td doesnt hide suddenly in front of the eyes when the player is smart enough to bring some scout nearby..........the issue you describe is not an issue.

kwok
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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby kwok » 18 Sep 2019, 20:47

i'd like to see how devs reach to those specific points, specifically that i can see majority of points are agreed by the most.


omfg. how about
Can we organize these thoughts in not a blanket general thread... among all the changes it’s legit hard to sift through rants. We can discuss those “specific points” on the “specific threads” they relate too... this whole thread is unfocused and covers so many topics.

then we can address all your specific points.
This is directed towards EVERYONE on this post. If you wonder why devs dont take your suggestions is because of these shotgun approached posts. It weakens your arguments drastically.

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Warhawks97
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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Warhawks97 » 18 Sep 2019, 20:55

Walderschmidt wrote:
Maybe you just outplayed the guy? My PIV F2s get shredded by 76 Shermans and the only time my stubby PIV/IIIs ever get a 76 Sherman is if I get a lucky HEAT shot.


what da heck? lol? It was an head on battle 1 vs 1.

1. Both can pen equally each other with 76 having edge in health and mobility.
2. The 76 bounced off twice in a row

But what statment is that? If i pay 3 CP and lots of res for a tank of the same type/class my enemie has, just that his one is much cheaper and costs no CP, i do expect to have clearly the upper hand, not just an equal tank. Like what would happen when a Tiger costs CP but a Pershing not and both are equally strong with 50/50 win chance in 1 vs 1. Guess everybody would go enrage.

Fact is, that these cheap early 0 CP Tank IV´s can almost bounce every second shot from 76 guns. I would like to see how people would look like when normal shermans would bounce off every second shot from an tank IV H/J or stug and being capable to fight tank IV H/J in head on fights.

And i didnt stay stubby pens sherman (sometimes they do), what i say is that their armor is quite resistant to 76 guns.



Viper wrote:agreed....f2 is too bad already.


Yeah, it costs just an apple and an eg (less than a sherman) and has the gun power to penetrate top tier US battle tanks quite decently except for Jumbos and Pershings. Its truly such an awfull unit.


@warhawk

why would anyone attack camo td without scout???
td doesnt hide suddenly in front of the eyes when the player is smart enough to bring some scout nearby..........the issue you describe is not an issue.





Situation 1: TD gets revealed by shooting at a tank and kills one. The enemie has superior numbers left (2 vs 1 TD or even 3 vs 1 TD) and pushes and closes in to flank and kill the TD. TD gets hit and has low HP, second tank is about to fire but the TD disappears suddenly, reloads the gun and kills another tank.

That sort of BS is what i am talking about and which happend hundreds of times and many players leaving game in rage. I heared the rage in TS dozens of times, even from games i wasnt involved even.

Situation 2: TD parks in front of enemie tanks or AT guns, presses camo button and sits there. AT gun fails/bounces and shortly after that TD hides, aims and shreds the Tank/AT gun.


When camo becomes an offensive thing, something is srsly flawed in the game.



Walderschmidt wrote:No issue with this. I haven't had any issues in my experience with this.

Wald


Idk when you started BK, but in almost every game that was intense and took some time there was at least one event when TD´s when camo mid combat, just 1 second away from being fairly defeated and in an inferior position and totally outplayed and this camo turned this fight and not seldomly the entire match, with lots of players rage-quiting when such bullshit happend. It happend many hundred times to players.
I could throw arround with replays and you would find at least one such scenario per game. But idk to which version the replays belong to.

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Tiger1996
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Re: [opinion] new Terror & Blitz

Postby Tiger1996 » 18 Sep 2019, 21:10

Warhawks97 wrote:Situation 1: TD gets revealed by shooting at a tank and kills one. The enemie has superior numbers left (2 vs 1 TD or even 3 vs 1 TD) and pushes and closes in to flank and kill the TD. TD gets hit and has low HP, second tank is about to fire but the TD disappears suddenly, reloads the gun and kills another tank.

That sort of BS is what i am talking about and which happend hundreds of times and many players leaving game in rage. I heared the rage in TS dozens of times, even from games i wasnt involved even.

Situation 2: TD parks in front of enemie tanks or AT guns, presses camo button and sits there. AT gun fails/bounces and shortly after that TD hides, aims and shreds the Tank/AT gun.


When camo becomes an offensive thing, something is srsly flawed in the game.

I know exactly the situations you are referring to.. and I have experienced them, however; this doesn't justify extending the re-hide time to insane levels or completely killing the role of camo in the game, if anything... Other solutions could be found, but the re-hide time shouldn't be too long.
After all, TDs and AT guns are meant to ambush and kill tanks.. so that's what they do! The counter is spotters.

kwok wrote:This is directed towards EVERYONE on this post. If you wonder why devs dont take your suggestions is because of these shotgun approached posts. It weakens your arguments drastically.

Despite my time is limited, but okay... I will later create separate topics addressing each different point(s) individually.
However, i will only create such topics for controversial points only... Other points (which seem to be agreed by majority) won't be re-addressed, unless they are found to be ignored.


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