Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

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winterflaw
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Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby winterflaw » 23 Nov 2018, 18:28

I normally play with tank destroyers.

I know them well and I'm sure you all do too.

Recently, I've been experimenting with tanks.

I'm beginning to come to the view they are problematic to use because of their turrets.

This is not what you'd wish for - tanks should be better because of their turrents, not worse.

There are two basic problems.

The first is that a tank destroyer will rotate to aim, and so always present frontal armour.

Tanks do not do this. They sit there and rotate their turrets.

Just now I had a PIV rotate its turrent completely, so it was being shot in the ass, while trying to shoot a Cromwell which was behind it.

You have to counter this problem manually, which increases the micro burden : and you then face another problem, which is that the tank if you then make it face in the right direction has to sit there for ages while it rotates its turret again! and of course the opposing tank may be moving past you at the same time, and then your tank is pointing the wrong way and the turret also.

Life is much easier when you only have to point the tank, and do not have a rather uncontrollable turret to deal with as well.

Second problem is that a turret once rotated will not repoint to the front.

I had another PIV, which ended up with its turrent pointing exactly backwards.

It stayed there.

I then had two tanks to attack, and of course I knew as I moved the PIV into range, it would need to spend ages rotating the turret - which it did, and it was flanked in that time, and then I quit that game in, well, disgust at tank turrets!

(Addendum. It's just occurred to me I could have use the "shoot here", or whatever it's called, function, to repoint the turret. I expect this will work, but it is again an additional micro burden. What I'd like to see is turrets automatically moving to face front when there are no enemies to aim at. Can this be done by the mod, or is it part of the game and unchangable?)
Last edited by winterflaw on 23 Nov 2018, 23:24, edited 2 times in total.

The New BK Champion
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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby The New BK Champion » 23 Nov 2018, 19:04

Haha, that's called realism I guess :D. Also if you are using panzer IV "j", it has veeery slow turrent rotation. Try using panzer IV "h". You can switch them in your rewards menu.

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Viper
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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby Viper » 23 Nov 2018, 20:40

it should be easier when abilities like hold fire are added for all tanks.

winterflaw
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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby winterflaw » 23 Nov 2018, 23:20

The New BK Champion wrote:Haha, that's called realism I guess :D. Also if you are using panzer IV "j", it has veeery slow turrent rotation. Try using panzer IV "h". You can switch them in your rewards menu.


F2.

I never use J - sadly, I'm not very good at zerging.

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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby The New BK Champion » 24 Nov 2018, 10:17

F2 is also a very poor tank. It significantly weaker. Try using panzer IV H from TH doc, where you can give it armor buff, and vet from beginning. They are unstoppable if handled well.

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MarKr
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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby MarKr » 24 Nov 2018, 10:37

Turret of any tank returns to the forward facing position after some time but it is true that some tanks have the time longer than others. This could be changed in the future so that all tanks and vehicles with turret stay aiming in the direction of last shot for e.g. 3 seconds and then return the turret to "normal" position.

It is also true that the F2 is sort of weak PIV - it has gun pretty much the same as H/J versions but armor of the stubby PIVs so the firepower is quite OK but the durability is not all that good. It also has no top MG which makes it more vulnerable to infantry attacks and even though the latest hull/coaxial MG changes might improve this a little bit, the lack of top MG and weaker armor is mainly what makes this tank sort of "meh".
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mofetagalactica
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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby mofetagalactica » 24 Nov 2018, 11:19

I still think that tank hunters should rotate slower, they're not that easy to flank.

winterflaw
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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby winterflaw » 24 Nov 2018, 13:38

The New BK Champion wrote:F2 is also a very poor tank. It significantly weaker. Try using panzer IV H from TH doc, where you can give it armor buff, and vet from beginning. They are unstoppable if handled well.


It just happened to be an F2 that one particular time,as I was experimenting with a different doctrine, and needed armour in a hurry and that was the best available at that moment given the buildings available and the command tree.

mofetagalactica wrote:I still think that tank hunters should rotate slower, they're not that easy to flank.


Can the German chassis' the hunters are on actually rotate in place? I thought not all tanks could do that.

MarKr wrote:Turret of any tank returns to the forward facing position after some time but it is true that some tanks have the time longer than others. This could be changed in the future so that all tanks and vehicles with turret stay aiming in the direction of last shot for e.g. 3 seconds and then return the turret to "normal" position.


This would be ideal.

It is also true that the F2 is sort of weak PIV - it has gun pretty much the same as H/J versions but armor of the stubby PIVs so the firepower is quite OK but the durability is not all that good. It also has no top MG which makes it more vulnerable to infantry attacks and even though the latest hull/coaxial MG changes might improve this a little bit, the lack of top MG and weaker armor is mainly what makes this tank sort of "meh".


IT WAS JUST THIS ONE PARTICULAR TIME AHHHHHHHHHHH!!! :-)

mofetagalactica wrote:I still think that tank hunters should rotate slower, they're not that easy to flank.


Indeed. I would say they rotate faster than turrets.

This is interesting because it highlights the problem.

If you're in a tank and you need to shoot something you need to point the gun at it as soon as possible. You also often want to point your front armour at it as soon as possible, as well.

The ideal solution si to rotate *BOTH* the tank AND the turret toward the target.

Now the turret is useful - actually worth having - because it's helping you line up on the target more quickly.

If you're in a hunter, then you have no turret so all you can do is rotate the tank - slower than rotate *plus* turret.

What actually happens is the tank sits there and only rotates the turret - which I suspect is slower than a hunter rotating its hull, AND has the disadvantage of not moving the front armour to face the enemy, AND if you try to repoint to tank to help, it's crap-shoot, because it can be that the turret is going say left (it may not be pointing forward to begin wtih), but you need to move the hull *right* to face the enemy, so aligning the hull makes the turret point the *wrong* way... so you can end up with the turret being a *liability*, an actual danger, because to make the tank safe you need to point at the enemy but doing so moves the gun *away* from the enemy...

What tanks need to do is what hunters do. They need to point toward the enemy AND point the turret toward the enemy. If the tank knows its doing this, it can always move the turret in the correct direction.

I'm sure the mod can't make this happen though - it must be in the game istelf.

EDIT by MarKr: 3 consecutive posts merged.
EDIT II by MarKr: 4th consecutive post merged. Man, you should really learn to use the "Edit" button...

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Viper
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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby Viper » 24 Nov 2018, 14:06

im not sure if anyone of you have played coh2 but all units in coh2 have hold fire ability. and it works very well in preventing issues like this turret problems. because your tanks will not rotate their turret or decide to engage enemies without your permission so it is much easier to keep their turret always facing the front.

winterflaw
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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby winterflaw » 24 Nov 2018, 14:27

seha wrote:im not sure if anyone of you have played coh2 but all units in coh2 have hold fire ability. and it works very well in preventing issues like this turret problems. because your tanks will not rotate their turret or decide to engage enemies without your permission so it is much easier to keep their turret always facing the front.


I may be wrong, but that doesn't sound like what I want.

What I think I want is for the tank to point at the target *and* point the turret at the target.

Trying indirectly to control the direction of the turret by manually deciding when the tank can or cannot fire sounds awkward at best. It's not the correct solution to this problem.

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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby winterflaw » 24 Nov 2018, 14:31

EDIT by MarKr: 3 consecutive posts merged.
EDIT II by MarKr: 4th consecutive post merged. Man, you should really learn to use the "Edit" button...


But why unify the posts? there doesn't seem much gain for the work involved? and there are three separate lines of conversation occurring - but now all three have a reply in a single post. That seems odd? and the people who will reply will have each to strip out from their quoted reply the material which is irrelevant to the conversation thread they and I are in.

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MarKr
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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby MarKr » 24 Nov 2018, 14:55

Because it is against the forum rules which you agreed to follow by registering here. ;)
Nieles wrote:2.2 No Double Posting.
Use the "Modify" function. Reading 3 posts in a row by the same author is extremely annoying. Got something to add to your original post after you've hit reply? Use modify.
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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby Viper » 24 Nov 2018, 15:20

winterflaw wrote:
seha wrote:im not sure if anyone of you have played coh2 but all units in coh2 have hold fire ability. and it works very well in preventing issues like this turret problems. because your tanks will not rotate their turret or decide to engage enemies without your permission so it is much easier to keep their turret always facing the front.


I may be wrong, but that doesn't sound like what I want.

What I think I want is for the tank to point at the target *and* point the turret at the target.

Trying indirectly to control the direction of the turret by manually deciding when the tank can or cannot fire sounds awkward at best. It's not the correct solution to this problem.

it will be awkward to make tanks with turrets rotate their entire hull in order to point at targets. this way you remove the advantage of the turret and they become tank destroyers.

hold fire will allow you to adjust your tank before it aims. and will prevent the tank from shooting while moving with weak accuracy. so it will not waste your reload. hold fire will prevent your tank from attacking or aiming at unimportant targets. hold fire is a big tactical advantage for tanks.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby Warhawks97 » 24 Nov 2018, 16:18

I dont want the hull automatically facing to the target. There are occassions in every game where you attack with a tank and keep your hull faced towards stuff like AT guns while the turret fires at targets slightly to the left and right. Imagine a panther automatically turning towards a mortar halftrack and thus exposing its side/rear to a 57 mm AT which wouldnt be a threat at all actually

Turrets also help during retreats. You can engage targets left and right while keeping the hull in a position that doesnt allow any of these threats to score a 100% save rear shot or keeping a front towards a 17 pdr while turret shoots at targets that try to close in etc.

i think turret tanks are being displayed worse as they actually are here. Turretless tanks are nice in a defense but there you can easily turn your hull manually towards threats. But in many combat situations i prefer the turret tank and that you can engage targets without exposing the vulnerable rear every time it wants to shoot something.


As for the Tank IV F2, its not that bad. It can drop smoke for just 10 ammo.... 10....get that. And since HE works it can also stand a chance vs inf.
think the gun is the problem. If i am correct the damage is 70-90 (350-450) compared to 80-120 (400-600) of the tank IV H and J guns.

Its armor is also formidable for the fact its just 50 mm. Its the strongest 50 mm armor plate history has probably ever seen. Even Darth Vader would have used it on his Star destroyers and Death Star if he would have known the secret Nazi mixture of this Alien like armor plate.

And it doesnt cost more than a normal sherman currently.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 24 Nov 2018, 23:06, edited 1 time in total.

winterflaw
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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby winterflaw » 24 Nov 2018, 22:27

How do you delete posts?

I've merged this with a later reply.
Last edited by winterflaw on 24 Nov 2018, 23:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby The New BK Champion » 24 Nov 2018, 22:55

Detracked turret-less tank destroyer is useless. Detracked tank is still a useful stationary fire station (until it gets obliterated by a call-in or enemy rush), this is at least one of turrents advantages.

Another one is the possibility of flanking enemy. Your hull can be facing the way you are going to be dodging to, the turret can still be aiming the enemy and continuing fire.

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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby winterflaw » 24 Nov 2018, 23:42

seha wrote:it will be awkward to make tanks with turrets rotate their entire hull in order to point at targets. this way you remove the advantage of the turret and they become tank destroyers.


In this thread I've argued for a couple of reasons that how tanks behave now is worse than tank destroyers.

You're saying now tanks are better, but you've not explained how this is so.

The New BK Champion wrote:Detracked turret-less tank destroyer is useless. Detracked tank is still a useful stationary fire station (until it gets obliterated by a call-in or enemy rush), this is at least one of turrents advantages.


Yes.

Another one is the possibility of flanking enemy. Your hull can be facing the way you are going to be dodging to, the turret can still be aiming the enemy and continuing fire.


I don't think this is a problem though - think about TDs. When you tell them to go somewhere, they go there. They only start to auto-rotate when they're not moving. Tanks can do the same, except the turret can rotate at any time, even while they're on their way somewhere.

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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby The New BK Champion » 25 Nov 2018, 02:08

You misunderstood me. I mean continous driving around an enemy tank dealing shots, while he is unable to run away or fight back. You can't do that without a turret.

winterflaw
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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby winterflaw » 25 Nov 2018, 14:56

The New BK Champion wrote:You misunderstood me.


Yes.

I mean continous driving around an enemy tank dealing shots, while he is unable to run away or fight back. You can't do that without a turret.


So, let me ask to make sure I've understood - I think you're saying that what I have proposed, that stationary tanks point their hull and turret towards their target, would be a problem for what you're describing?

An as aside, I think the reason you can do this with a tank is mainly *because* tanks do not rotate their hull. If they did that (which is natural enough - TDs do it) *and* repointed their turret at the same time, flanking would be much harder.

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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby The New BK Champion » 25 Nov 2018, 15:13

Haha, yes I guess I misunderstood you too. What I wanted to point out was that turrent is an point of advantage for a vehicle xd. I disagree that tanks should automaticaly turn their hull.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby Warhawks97 » 25 Nov 2018, 17:06

I agree with TNBC. As i said, you will get in lot of trouble if you dont have controle about your hull. You can keep front facing the strong guns while turret can shoot at targets arround without exposing the rear too much. Tanks without turret are nice in the defense/ambush/ support role but in a battlefield with lots of battle arround its nice to have a turret that can shoot targets.

It helps in the offense as well as during retreat. You can keep driving in one direction (eg retreating) and shoot targets arround you. During loading i move the tank while gun aims, i stop and shoot and continue moving while aiming for the next target without making the tank always turning its entire hull.

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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby Viper » 26 Nov 2018, 04:30

winterflaw wrote:I don't think this is a problem though - think about TDs. When you tell them to go somewhere, they go there. They only start to auto-rotate when they're not moving. Tanks can do the same, except the turret can rotate at any time, even while they're on their way somewhere.

thats what i said. with hold fire ability you will be able to disable or enable tanks from auto targeting or auto aiming their turrets while moving.

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Re: Tanks seem worse than tank destroyers

Postby winterflaw » 26 Nov 2018, 22:32

Viper wrote:
winterflaw wrote:I don't think this is a problem though - think about TDs. When you tell them to go somewhere, they go there. They only start to auto-rotate when they're not moving. Tanks can do the same, except the turret can rotate at any time, even while they're on their way somewhere.

thats what i said. with hold fire ability you will be able to disable or enable tanks from auto targeting or auto aiming their turrets while moving.


What I'm looking for though is for tanks to rotate their hulls and their turrets, when stationary, to aim at an enemy. This gets the gun laying performed as quickly as possible. Hold fire doesn't make the hull rotate.


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