Regarding My Experiences

Talk about CoH1 or BKMOD1 in general.
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Jalis
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Re: Regarding My Experiences

Postby Jalis » 05 Sep 2018, 22:18

Crowmell deserve perhaps more flank speed than comet. It is well know Cromwell top speed had been limited by brit engineers to avoid issue.
Same was true for most Sherman, but often crews removed security system to gain some hp and speed.

Anyway Cromwell and comet have the same engine but Cromwell is lighter : conclusion is obvious.

Problem with comet is, it came late at bk and had never been personalised like other tanks. It have not its own TT armour, and Sherman is far more close for Churchill IV armour than comet. Comet gun is also not a 17 pdr, but it is perhaps a bit less important.

At bk hetzer was and perhaps still is overrated. It is even strange such underpowered vehicle could had flank speed.

It is not such a problem a Cromwell can kill a panther when even a greyhound can do it.

M10 and achilles were diesel powered that make them about ineligible for engine upgrade and flank speed. Jackson, on an other hand, had a ford GAA engine. I think achilles had manual traverse system so same turret speed as M10.

Of course all of this Worth only for people interrested by game in historical contest.

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Tiger1996
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Re: Regarding My Experiences

Postby Tiger1996 » 05 Sep 2018, 22:48

Warhawks97 wrote:I already wrote somewhere that its basically impossible or only with two pen hit triggering max damage to kill a hetzer in a single volley. Thats bc the zook max damage is as high as schrecks lowest possible damage.

Are you telling me you never killed a Hetzer with 2 Zookas? o.O
What you are saying about the Zooka damage is total nonsense, because most certainly... Hetzer - in majoirty of cases - WILL die with 2 Zookas.

Achilles already have 2 advantages over Hetzers... HE rounds and Flanks Speed, one of them has to be removed or restricted.
There is also little reason to build Comets this way when you can get Achilles, because Achilles has everything... HE rounds, flank speed, and camo.
Achilles combine the speed of the comet, with the same armor of the Cromwell, and the gun of the Jackson.. with HE rounds that Jacksons don't have.

Achilles is basically.. a Jackson, Wolverine and Hellcat... All in 1 tank.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: Regarding My Experiences

Postby mofetagalactica » 05 Sep 2018, 23:01

Tiger1996 wrote:Flank speed was also what kept the Hetzer alive from Bazooka rush btw, but it was removed completely.. so what?
Here i didn't even suggest to remove it completely from the Achilles, however.. it would just require some veterancy.
Achilles would still have HE rounds to defend itself against inf rush, which is something both Jacksons and Hetzers don't have...

Regarding the Cromwell, they can kill Panthers too easily now after weakening the rear armor for heavies as you have seen on the msg i sent to you and MarKr few days ago. So, i'd say flank speed on veterancy level 1 would be more than justified... Cromwells would be still able to flank Panthers and kill them but at least 1 veterancy level will be needed in order to achieve this effectively.

This way Comet will have the advantage of flank speed by default over Achilles and Cromwell.. and Jacksons would also have the advantage of flank speed by default (after engine upgrade) or the static position and good armor for the B1 variant.

Or well, another idea that could also work:
it's to reduce the turret rotation speed for the Achilles to be same as M10 Wolverine, without removing flank speed.
While increasing the turret rotation speed for Comets on the other hand...
Nonetheless, I think Cromwell must have flank speed at vet1 or something.


Dude can you stop using that way of thinking by imaginating 1v1 scenarios without support close? most common maps that peopple uses dosn't even have enought space to perform this the 50% of times lol, cromwells dosnt have any good defence againts infantry (no top gunner and his HE sucks) with only 1 grenadier squad with zooka you can get rid of both of those cromwells that try to swarm your panther (it dosnt even matter if you lose your panther D anyway cause its cheap as fuck and you can rush it)

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seha
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Re: Regarding My Experiences

Postby seha » 05 Sep 2018, 23:12

hetzer vs zooka = hetzer dead or heavily damaged.

achilles vs shreck = shreck team dead by high explosive or 1 man survive, and achilles escape with flank speed.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: Regarding My Experiences

Postby mofetagalactica » 06 Sep 2018, 05:05

mofetagalactica wrote:
Tiger1996 wrote:Regarding the Cromwell, they can kill Panthers too easily now after weakening the rear armor for heavies as you have seen on the msg i sent to you and MarKr few days ago. So, i'd say flank speed on veterancy level 1 would be more than justified... Cromwells would be still able to flank Panthers and kill them but at least 1 veterancy level will be needed in order to achieve this effectively


Dude can you stop using that way of thinking by imaginating 1v1 scenarios without support close? most common maps that peopple uses dosn't even have enought space to perform this the 50% of times lol, cromwells dosnt have any good defence againts infantry (no top gunner and his HE sucks) with only 1 grenadier squad with zooka you can get rid of both of those cromwells that try to swarm your panther (it dosnt even matter if you lose your panther D anyway cause its cheap as fuck and you can rush it)

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Tiger1996
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Re: Regarding My Experiences

Postby Tiger1996 » 06 Sep 2018, 06:45

seha wrote:hetzer vs zooka = hetzer dead or heavily damaged.

achilles vs shreck = shreck team dead by high explosive or 1 man survive, and achilles escape with flank speed.

Pretty much that.

I don't know why does it need to have both!
I think it would be enough to hit the AT team with HE rounds... OR to escape from them with flank speed.
Doing both tasks at the same time though, is a bit too much for such a TD that is supposed to counter tanks in the first place.. not inf.

mofetagalactica wrote:Dude can you stop using that way of thinking by imaginating 1v1 scenarios without support close? most common maps that peopple uses dosn't even have enought space to perform this the 50% of times lol, cromwells dosnt have any good defence againts infantry (no top gunner and his HE sucks) with only 1 grenadier squad with zooka you can get rid of both of those cromwells that try to swarm your panther (it dosnt even matter if you lose your panther D anyway cause its cheap as fuck and you can rush it)

Posting it twice? No need for that.
The fact that you COULD kill a Panther.D with just 2 Cromwell(s) and perhaps even without losing any of them, is just too much for PvP balance.

I have no problem how the Cromwell can penetrate Panther from the rear.. but being such a Ferrari tank with super sonic speed, isn't really fine.
Or at least acceptable but only when some veterancy is required then...

kwok
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Re: Regarding My Experiences

Postby kwok » 06 Sep 2018, 07:28

Tiger1996 wrote:The fact that you COULD kill a Panther.D with just 2 Cromwell(s) and perhaps even without losing any of them, is just too much for PvP balance.


I could take on the whole statement, but this particular statement and the many more like it is what bothers me the most... Part of what makes CoH CoH is the ability to DO just this. This is what separates CoH from games like starcraft where no matter HOW you play the situation one unit will ALWAYS kill another based on pure stats.

We talk SOOoo much about how we HATE rng when in reality it's what keeps us play CoH... it's the heart of the game. We can bitch about how messy target tables are but THAT is what makes the game great.

We WANT a game where 2 cromwells can kill a panther if used correctly. We WANT a game where luft can smite down 1400mp worth of infantry if used correctly. This logic is a double edge sword... the reason why tigers/panthers/etc cost so much and can be worth their cost is because for the same reason they can be killed easily by smaller units, then can kill off many small units and survive without a dent. The fact that 2 cromwells can kill a panther is the same reason panthers can kill 2 cromwells. If we are going to do pure cost to cost equality... then go back to rts's where the cost per dps is perfectly calculated with no RNG. Then 2 cromwells and 1 panther will always kill each other. 1 cromwell will always put a panther at half health.
How many games were posted where a unit racked up enough damage well beyond its cost? How many videos of "King tiger makes __ kills", "stug makes ___ kills", "SAS makes ___ kills", etc etc etc "The fact that you COULD kill [choice amount of units with summed MP/Fuel/Munition] and perhaps without even losing [units with exceedingly less amount of resources spent] is just too much for PvP balance".

When we assign a cost to a unit it's intended to be the PROBABLE value of the unit's worth, not necessarily its actual value. Here i come with me "pseudo math again", it's called EXPECTED VALUE, not absolute value. Here's the source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value
If you're making an argument that a unit costs less or more than their expected value, then yeah that's an argument. But when you flat out say just 2 cromwells can kill a panther is incorrect, you take away the heart of the game, that's the issue with all these X shouldn't kill Y arguments. You take out the most rewarding part of the game that keeps people addicted. That's what sets BK apart from vCoH, it rewards skill more so than vCoH. I really don't think that should be taken away. There are other reasons for cromwells to not have flank speed, the fact that cromwells can kill panthers shouldn't be one of them.

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Tiger1996
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Re: Regarding My Experiences

Postby Tiger1996 » 06 Sep 2018, 07:55

kwok wrote:We WANT a game where 2 cromwells can kill a panther if used correctly.

You probably want that, but I don't.. and you can't speak for everyone else.
Though, let me be more precise:
Tiger1996 wrote:I have no problem how the Cromwell can penetrate Panther from the rear.. but being such a Ferrari tank with super sonic speed, isn't really fine.
Or at least acceptable but only when some veterancy is required then...

So, basically I want it too.. but not as easy as now.
And that means...
kwok wrote:But when you flat out say just 2 cromwells can kill a panther is incorrect

it's incorrect when YOU claim that I said Cromwell killing Panther from rear is incorrect...

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MarKr
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Re: Regarding My Experiences

Postby MarKr » 06 Sep 2018, 08:18

Guys, Cromwells will keep Flank speed but we will probably lower the bonus which the ability provides so they will be able to get a speed boost but lower than now.

Adjustments and few fixes for arty are coming too.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Regarding My Experiences

Postby Warhawks97 » 06 Sep 2018, 10:22

kwok wrote:
Tiger1996 wrote:The fact that you COULD kill a Panther.D with just 2 Cromwell(s) and perhaps even without losing any of them, is just too much for PvP balance.


I could take on the whole statement, but this particular statement and the many more like it is what bothers me the most... Part of what makes CoH CoH is the ability to DO just this. This is what separates CoH from games like starcraft where no matter HOW you play the situation one unit will ALWAYS kill another based on pure stats.

We talk SOOoo much about how we HATE rng when in reality it's what keeps us play CoH... it's the heart of the game. We can bitch about how messy target tables are but THAT is what makes the game great.

We WANT a game where 2 cromwells can kill a panther if used correctly. We WANT a game where luft can smite down 1400mp worth of infantry if used correctly. This logic is a double edge sword... the reason why tigers/panthers/etc cost so much and can be worth their cost is because for the same reason they can be killed easily by smaller units, then can kill off many small units and survive without a dent. The fact that 2 cromwells can kill a panther is the same reason panthers can kill 2 cromwells. If we are going to do pure cost to cost equality... then go back to rts's where the cost per dps is perfectly calculated with no RNG. Then 2 cromwells and 1 panther will always kill each other. 1 cromwell will always put a panther at half health.
How many games were posted where a unit racked up enough damage well beyond its cost? How many videos of "King tiger makes __ kills", "stug makes ___ kills", "SAS makes ___ kills", etc etc etc "The fact that you COULD kill [choice amount of units with summed MP/Fuel/Munition] and perhaps without even losing [units with exceedingly less amount of resources spent] is just too much for PvP balance".

When we assign a cost to a unit it's intended to be the PROBABLE value of the unit's worth, not necessarily its actual value. Here i come with me "pseudo math again", it's called EXPECTED VALUE, not absolute value. Here's the source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value
If you're making an argument that a unit costs less or more than their expected value, then yeah that's an argument. But when you flat out say just 2 cromwells can kill a panther is incorrect, you take away the heart of the game, that's the issue with all these X shouldn't kill Y arguments. You take out the most rewarding part of the game that keeps people addicted. That's what sets BK apart from vCoH, it rewards skill more so than vCoH. I really don't think that should be taken away. There are other reasons for cromwells to not have flank speed, the fact that cromwells can kill panthers shouldn't be one of them.



+1

We have inf squads sometimes scoring over 100 kills, Volks with mp40 can repell a CQC ranger squad, A single stug 3 can kill multiple shermans or a single M10 wolverine multiple tank IV´s and so on. I dont get why this single "omg two cromwell kill Panther" thing is such a big thing. The vids ive seen this happening were often 1 vs 1 with Panthers totally left without support. Ad a single 50 mm and 57 mm to each side, a single gren/ranger squad with schreck/zook at each side and things would suddenly look completely different. And no unit in BK should be super effective alone, no matter what it costs. So i fully agree with kwok. This is what makes games interesting.

And i think we all can be fine when markr says that the boosts given might get lowered on cromwell.

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Tiger1996
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Re: Regarding My Experiences

Postby Tiger1996 » 06 Sep 2018, 13:24

Alright then MarKr, fair enough.

I think the flank speed for Cromwell lasts too long, so maybe the active time of the ability can be lowered to the half or something.

About the Comet, I think the turret should rotate faster.. it's a bit too slow now... And that makes it hard to flank, so maybe faster turret for Comets would be good, just to keep an obvious advantage over Achilles.

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Robb
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Re: Regarding My Experiences

Postby Robb » 06 Sep 2018, 13:31

I mainly play versus Expert AI with friends. Even though the AI cheats they act very much like lemmings. They'll occasionally shell your line of defence with artillery but as long as it holds, they're very manageable. If there's a hole in your line, you're in for a rough time. The things you describe of insane cheating is only something I experienced heavily with the Europe at War mod to such an extent it made me drop that. (The very wonky what kills what didn't help either.. combat felt so RNG, often in favour of the AI).

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Re: Regarding My Experiences

Postby Wolf52371 » 08 Sep 2018, 07:37

Robb wrote:I mainly play versus Expert AI with friends. Even though the AI cheats they act very much like lemmings. They'll occasionally shell your line of defence with artillery but as long as it holds, they're very manageable. If there's a hole in your line, you're in for a rough time. The things you describe of insane cheating is only something I experienced heavily with the Europe at War mod to such an extent it made me drop that. (The very wonky what kills what didn't help either.. combat felt so RNG, often in favour of the AI).


I only play PvE and I agree with you. Basically the AI is good at one thing. Observing (through its ultra vision) where you have a gap and shoving everything at it (with hive mind enabled) until it breaks you or you break it. If the map is small enough or sufficiently choke pointed, you can establish an even line and hold them without a ton of trouble. It is crazy how fast they can exploit your lines sometimes.

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Jalis
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Re: Regarding My Experiences

Postby Jalis » 08 Sep 2018, 13:54

Expert at coh means only AI will cheat the ressources. However in actual BK structure it is not sure AI will be able to use it. Roughly it is not so rare so see Expert AI die in a sea of ressources.
However I noticed Skirmishers are themselves paradoxal ; they usually want easy game, but complain AI is stupid, at the same time they need to play against expert AI because it give them the feeling/illusion they make an extraordinary achievement.

If a mod made AI use arty as often and efficiently than players, for exemple, player will flee the game. It is true even if playing VS a normal AI make the game manageable … Simply because players need to claim they are so smart they only play against Expert.

You will not find so much players to say ; I like play skirmish with friend because it is a cool moment of relation where we make a big slaughter with units AI send us, until we decide It is time to assault enemy base to claim victory.

PVP palyers are a bit responsible for that. A lot tend to consider themselves as elite players and openly despise skirmishers. Really skirmisher and pvp have simply not the same goal, first look for fun, second for competition. This lack of understanding come from pvp are very often young people, often still dependent from their parents and who need to prove something to the world even it is via a video game.

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Selicia
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Re: Regarding My Experiences

Postby Selicia » 08 Sep 2018, 17:41

Jalis wrote:Expert at coh means only AI will cheat the ressources. However in actual BK structure it is not sure AI will be able to use it. Roughly it is not so rare so see Expert AI die in a sea of ressources.
However I noticed Skirmishers are themselves paradoxal ; they usually want easy game, but complain AI is stupid, at the same time they need to play against expert AI because it give them the feeling/illusion they make an extraordinary achievement.

If a mod made AI use arty as often and efficiently than players, for exemple, player will flee the game. It is true even if playing VS a normal AI make the game manageable … Simply because players need to claim they are so smart they only play against Expert.

You will not find so much players to say ; I like play skirmish with friend because it is a cool moment of relation where we make a big slaughter with units AI send us, until we decide It is time to assault enemy base to claim victory.

PVP palyers are a bit responsible for that. A lot tend to consider themselves as elite players and openly despise skirmishers. Really skirmisher and pvp have simply not the same goal, first look for fun, second for competition. This lack of understanding come from pvp are very often young people, often still dependent from their parents and who need to prove something to the world even it is via a video game.


Not many players say it because the PvP players are always the loud ones. And obviously nothing they say will change anything so why would they?

I personally find the mod to be far too RNG based at times. Like a royal marine commando squad which is trained specifically for close range combat losing against a volk squad with smg's with piss poor combat experience and training. Things like that should never happen if this mod is supposed to be realistic. You just can't have realism and then try to balance PvP into it without breaking realism. There's just some realistic facts that weren't meant to be balanced.

I've never been able to enjoy playing the CW commando doctrine because their supposedly 'elite' troops can't even stand up to volks or panzer grenadiers squads in 1v1 combat 80% of the time.

There are plenty of games that had their player-base butchered by changing the game based on PvP that also affects the PvE aspects.

I don't see much of a skill factor in this mod aside from micromanaging units. Especially since the unit pathing is horrendously terrible at times making flanking attempts pointless at times with the lack of space in most maps to also pull said flanking maneuver off.

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Jalis
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Re: Regarding My Experiences

Postby Jalis » 09 Sep 2018, 09:37

Selicia wrote:
There are plenty of games that had their player-base butchered by changing the game based on PvP that also affects the PvE aspects.



You simply cant have a game good for pvp and pve at the same time. At start goal are not the same. When a game is proposed for pve and pvp at the same time, it is usually good for pve at start and quite bad for pvp.
Players are tricheous. With time many features are removed because pvp found how to abuse, then come the balance, and all of this make pve experience poorer and poorer.

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Selicia
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Re: Regarding My Experiences

Postby Selicia » 09 Sep 2018, 16:27

Jalis wrote:
Selicia wrote:
There are plenty of games that had their player-base butchered by changing the game based on PvP that also affects the PvE aspects.



You simply cant have a game good for pvp and pve at the same time. At start goal are not the same. When a game is proposed for pve and pvp at the same time, it is usually good for pve at start and quite bad for pvp.
Players are tricheous. With time many features are removed because pvp found how to abuse, then come the balance, and all of this make pve experience poorer and poorer.


Yeah exactly my point, it's just a shame the two can't seem to work together. I mean if the two had their own balancing within their respective game modes it'd work but that's a lot of work so I can understand the reason.


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