Regarding My Experiences

[Selicia]

I've dabbled in this mod for over a hundred hours now and I think there's a few experiences I've had I just really just need some feedback from somebody here about.

I've only messed with PvE battles in this mod so far because i'm not sure how comfortable i'd be with PvP even if my friends tell me I should play PvP.
That being said i'm not trying to say anything needs to be changed i'm just trying to find some kind of understanding with some experiences I've had that could be either because of AI or some mechanic I didn't understand.

- The CW's Comet tank. What exactly is this tank's purpose being so far down the tree? Anytime I give it a try usually ends up being one-shot by just about anything. It struggles to kill a Panzer IV and I've had it lose to a Panzer IV while being hulled down and over repaired in frontal combat many times. I honestly joke to my only other friend when playing with them about the "Has additional armor plating" detail in the description.

- The Luftwaffe Air Patrols. I'm sure this one might just be the AI being AI. But i'm not going to lie that the two patrol abilities practically ruin any kind of fun and replace it with complete frustration. So why can you use these abilities and have bombers and planes attack things from all sides of the map (Including your own side) And leave almost no time for AA to react and stop them. Like I've never been able to stop every single plane even with a full spam of AA because they just ignore the planes sometimes leaving me completely baffled. I'm not sure if this happens because the AI cheat vision or something but nose cannons on planes are practically 100% accurate from my experiences. Also even if I did manage to shoot down some of the planes, they just suicide and blow up my base or other things anyways. The crashing is random sure but it's so devastating that it puts the Sturmtiger to shame with some of the multiple crashes in one patrol I've experience haha.

I do play on Steam and I am in Central America time zone. I might give PvP a try at some point but it's hard without any friends that enjoy it. So just throwing that out there if there's people in this community friendly and need people to play with.

[kwok]

Lol funny thing is some of these gripes apply to PvP as well.

[Krieger Blitzer]

- Comet tank;
To me, this tank is extremely good counter to Pz4 spam.. and even good against Tigers and Panthers, Comets are cheap, fast.. with also good cannon.
2 Comets would definitely kill a Panther head to head, even without having to flank.. however if u flank, then the Panther would be in serious trouble.

- Luft airstrikes;
Both are easily kill-able when enough Quad AA emplacements are deployed.. and by the way, Axis planes are way slower than Allied ones.. and thus they are a lot easier to kill with AA fire compared to Allied planes. I would say that Airborne patrol is as much deadly, if not more deadly...

[mofetagalactica]

- Luft airstrikes;
Both are easily kill-able when enough Quad AA emplacements are deployed.. and by the way, Axis planes are way slower than Allied ones.. and thus they are a lot easier to kill with AA fire compared to Allied planes. I would say that Airborne patrol is as much deadly, if not more deadly...

Wrong wrong and wrong, he's talking about patrols wich are immune to AA's and henschells that once spawned can attack any tank in the map even those in your base if the plane randomly goes overthere and they can even shoot you before entering the map so its pretty much an unlimited range hability ( if you're able to spawn them).


About comets, forget about making them they're not that usefull anymore, just go for cromwell spam (they work vs pz4's and stugs) vs panthers and tigers just flank them using flank speed hability.

[MenciusMoldbug]

Comet was supposed(from my interpretation) to be a fast black prince churchill, hence why it was so far down the tree and cost so much upkeep/100 fuel cost. Because it was supposed to be a breakthrough tank instead of a copy of the achilles without ambush camouflage.

Now that it got gimped, it's just an achilles without ambush camouflage and a better HE shell. But I rather take the achilles over it because ambush camouflage is so crucial(also why i don't use stug 3's). You can oneshot panthers with achilles using AP + Ambush Bonus while the comet cannot.

It should honestly be disconnected from the Achilles -> Firefly -> Comet tree because it makes you think you're getting something like a Pershing when you are not. Just disconnect it and put it on its own costing 2 CP's or connect it to the firefly only and it should be good.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I think the current main differences between Achilles and Comets are more about how Comets are harder to hit and have hull/coaxial MGs that are actually useful which is something Achilles don't have.

I'm still fine if Comets would be earlier available though.. but 2 CP seems a bit too early I would say, as I would rather be more careful with that.

Often I compare Comet with 76 Jumbo Sherman. No one complains about the 76 Jumbo.. but only about the Comet!
Despite that their situation is very similar by the way... Let's have a look:
- Comet requires 6 CP, 470 MP and 60 fuel, good gun, flank speed, rapid shot ability, HE rounds... 3 available at once.
- 76 Jumbo requires 7 CP, 700 MP, average gun, slow, good armor, suppression ability, HE rounds... 1 available at once.

So, the 76 Jumbo is 1 CP later available, limited to 1 and costs only MP, being slow with good armor.
While the Comet is 1 CP earlier available, limited to 3 and costs fuel & MP, being fast but weaker armor.

So; I think if there is a problem with Comets.. then there should also be a problem with 76 Jumbo, no?
Nonetheless, no one ever complained about the 76 Jumbo.. but only Comets for some reason!

All in all, I think it's pretty justified as it is now... HOWEVER;

in my opinion though, there is yet a chance Comet could be earlier available.. but ONLY IF docs would be reworked a bit, as follows...
- Achilles would be removed from RA doc, as well as RAF doc... Achilles unlock replaced by 17p emplacement in RA, and by 75mm howitzers in RAF.
- Hetzer would be removed from Luft doc, as well as SE doc... Hetzer unlock replaced by 120mm mortar in SE, and by LeiG.18 howitzers in Luft.
- Nashorn removed from SE doc, captured Firefly unlock would be separate from captured 76 Sherman unlock.. and replacing Nashorn unlock.
- Comet unlock separate from Achilles, but still intact with Firefly.. meaning that Comet will require 4 CP instead of 6 CP currently.

I think Comets can be earlier available only this way then.

he's talking about patrols wich are immune to AA's

I really don't think any of these Luft patrols are immune to AA(s) in any possible way.

[Jalis]

I think the current main differences between Achilles and Comets are more about how Comets are harder to hit and have hull/coaxial MGs that are actually useful which is something Achilles don't have.

hull mg are not as usefull in pve as in pvp. Ai is bad as using infantry AT squad. Also for many reasons bk skirmishers dont use as many inf squad as pvp does, and except at early game AI as well. At the end skirmishers often use a handfull of inf squad for repair and capture purpose.

[Krieger Blitzer]

just to clarify, currently hull and coaxial MGs in BK Mod generally aren't useful of course.. however, I was talking about the hull and coaxial MGs of the Comet in particular. I think Comet shares the same hull and coaxial MGs as Churchills, which are one of the very few hull/coaxial MGs in the game that are currently a bit useful compared to others. I also forgot to mention that the Comet has more HP and slightly better armor than Achilles, as I have seen it bouncing off 75mm L/48 guns a couple of times.

[Warhawks97]

Comet was supposed(from my interpretation) to be a fast black prince churchill, hence why it was so far down the tree and cost so much upkeep/100 fuel cost. Because it was supposed to be a breakthrough tank instead of a copy of the achilles without ambush camouflage.

You refer to the game or reality? Bc from a realistic point of view it wasnt a breahtrorugh tank. It was a cruiser with a big canon. The cruiser familiy is what can be described as the most MBT style tank of british in ww2 and which was the most successfull for the british simply as armor alone wasnt enough for ww2.

Now that it got gimped, it's just an achilles without ambush camouflage and a better HE shell. But I rather take the achilles over it because ambush camouflage is so crucial(also why i don't use stug 3's). You can oneshot panthers with achilles using AP + Ambush Bonus while the comet cannot.

It should honestly be disconnected from the Achilles -> Firefly -> Comet tree because it makes you think you're getting something like a Pershing when you are not. Just disconnect it and put it on its own costing 2 CP's or connect it to the firefly only and it should be good.

I like this idea very much.

I think the current main differences between Achilles and Comets are more about how Comets are harder to hit and have hull/coaxial MGs that are actually useful which is something Achilles don't have.

I'm still fine if Comets would be earlier available though.. but 2 CP seems a bit too early I would say, as I would rather be more careful with that.


Lol, coaxial and Hull. They can deal damage to pios in the open and mid range but later on they do a shit. Their range is approx 50-55 range and even at very close range they are as accurate as top mounted MG34 at max range. The hull MG´s cant even shoot as long as a tank drives for whatever reason. So these weapons cant be taken serious and they wont make a difference at all.
Comet has with 700 HP way more HP than a 500 HP M10 which is essential important when getting hit from stugs and guns alike. However the M10 can bounce 50 mm AT shells better than the comet does.

Often I compare Comet with 76 Jumbo Sherman. No one complains about the 76 Jumbo.. but only about the Comet!
Despite that their situation is very similar by the way... Let's have a look:
- Comet requires 6 CP, 470 MP and 60 fuel, good gun, flank speed, rapid shot ability, HE rounds... 3 available at once.
- 76 Jumbo requires 7 CP, 700 MP, average gun, slow, good armor, suppression ability, HE rounds... 1 available at once.

So, the 76 Jumbo is 1 CP later available, limited to 1 and costs only MP, being slow with good armor.
While the Comet is 1 CP earlier available, limited to 3 and costs fuel & MP, being fast but weaker armor.

So; I think if there is a problem with Comets.. then there should also be a problem with 76 Jumbo, no?
Nonetheless, no one ever complained about the 76 Jumbo.. but only Comets for some reason!

What? They arent similiar at all. One is a multirole tank that should serve as a breakthrought tank and leading tank columns. However it does have its trouble sometimes achieveing this. The main issue is that the Jumbo has very poor rear armor. As an example: The 50 mm AT gun has a 100% rear pen chance from max range and ambush (without its 90%). Compared to 26,55% vs basic churchill (21,24% without ambush). The allied 57 mm/6pdr has 17,5% rear pen chance vs Tiger at max range and ambush and 14% without ambush. Even the US 76 has a 66% chance to pen Tigers rear from max range and ambush (52,8% without ambush).

So the Jumbo is quite broken as a breakthrough tank compared to churhill or tigers.


The Comet is a light and fast cruiser tank with a powerfull gun.

All in all, I think it's pretty justified as it is now... HOWEVER;

in my opinion though, there is yet a chance Comet could be earlier available.. but ONLY IF docs would be reworked a bit, as follows...
- Achilles would be removed from RA doc, as well as RAF doc... Achilles unlock replaced by 17p emplacement in RA, and by 75mm howitzers in RAF.
- Hetzer would be removed from Luft doc, as well as SE doc... Hetzer unlock replaced by 120mm mortar in SE, and by LeiG.18 howitzers in Luft.
- Nashorn removed from SE doc, captured Firefly unlock would be separate from captured 76 Sherman unlock.. and replacing Nashorn unlock.
- Comet unlock separate from Achilles, but still intact with Firefly.. meaning that Comet will require 4 CP instead of 6 CP currently.

I think Comets can be earlier available only this way then.

Why? Why removing all ambush units. Hetzer and Nashorn are essntial for SE and fits its style of inflcting casaulites for every square meter the enemie gains. These silly call in shermans cant replace a nashorn. They are support and a low fuel option. What shall SE do vs sherman spams? Calling a single 76 and firefly? You gonna kill SE that way. You would turn SE into a solo arty doc similiar to RA and both of them wouldnt have any kind of tactical defence with the removal or ambush units.
And RA needs the achilles or you get overruned. The fact that CW has emplacments at default is a faction feature that is neccessary. In return they dont have any non doctrinal mutlirole assault inf like PE and WH has it. And a 75 mm howitzer to be unlocked? really? Thats too much, just as the leig 18 for luftwaffe. That weapon was kind of standard equipment.

[Krieger Blitzer]

And a 75 mm howitzer to be unlocked? really? Thats too much, just as the leig 18 for luftwaffe. That weapon was kind of standard equipment.

I think you got me wrong... I didn't mean the 75mm field howitzer gun that RAF doc currently has from gliders, this one won't need any CPs.
What i was talking about, was the 75mm howitzer of Airborne doctrine.. as it would be then added for RAF doc as well, and it costs CPs in AB too.

What? They arent similiar at all.

Comet and Jumbo, well.. their role isn't similar... Yes. Though, I didn't compare their role!
I only explained how both tanks are more or less statistically similar. One of them is fast with weak armor, while the other is slow with good armor... So, the Comet feels like a "lighter" version of the Jumbo Sherman.. thus they require almost the same amount of CPs, but with some other differences.

Why? Why removing all ambush units.

MarKr said before he was planning to remove Firefly and Hetzers from all CW and PE docs except RE and TH docs.
While I believe this is weird because Firefly is a long range tank, but Hetzer is a TD on the other hand.. therefore, I suggested it would be better to remove Hetzers and Achilles but keeping Firefly in all CW docs, as well as keeping Panther.D in Luft doc and Firefly in SE doc. I know that this might even contradict my other suggestions of another topic where I provided my doctrinal rework perspective, as I said back then that Panther.D could be removed from Luft doc.. however, that's just a different perspective here.
As it would make more sense to remove Hetzers and Achilles.. not Hetzers and Firefly!

Lastly;
Hull and coaxial MGs for Comet do enough damage to AT squads in the open.. at least better than other noise maker hull/coaxial MGs in the game.
So, if the Achilles is attacked with AT squad of 4 soldiers.. let's say the HE killed only 3 guys, the last 1 will survive.. but if the same happened with Comet, then I guess the last will be killed with its hull/coaxial MGs while he trying to escape.. and that's all what u need really.

[Warhawks97]

I think its a bad idea to remove so many cruical units in certain docs. SE would miss its purpose without hetzer and nashorn. Hetzer in general is important to PE. Panther is tool that you use or not but by far not as cruical as hetzers if you want to keep in the game later on.

Same as i feel the M10 being cruical in CW. They dont have any kind of armor that can hold the line so the ambush units is what keeps them in game. Emplacmants just holds the enemie back for some time but not typical comeback units.


And comet and jumbo keeps different in all aspects. I dont see anything these tanks have in common. The cruiser tanks have no armor whatsoever. Even M10 has more. So there is no "jumbo light".


And come on, why shall raf get the AB tool. Yes its an unlock and a air dropped weapon and it fits so great in the AB style as a complete air dropable army. These air dropped weapons arent always the best but they complement each other. RAF doesnt need that and has good guns, SAS and ambush units and marine commandos.

CW has already got lots of stuff that was actually only or mainly used by US. Mainly priest and the 75 mm arty HT. Its like US throwing arround their good stuff and giving the crap that remains to their own soldiers. We dont have to cannibalise US further in order to boost a faction that is doing very well already.

[Selicia]

he's talking about patrols wich are immune to AA's

I really don't think any of these Luft patrols are immune to AA(s) in any possible way.

It's not that they are immune to AA it's that even with AA quads spread out on my entire side of the map I control bombers still manage to get through and if I get a anti-tank patrol called in my AA just gets wiped out from shots across the map before they can even fire. Not to mention they come from behind (In your territory/base) often and one-shot tanks even hulled down and over-repaired churchhills.

[MarKr]

Some tweaks to Henschels are planned. They proved to be hard to balance right. They usually go from "too weak" to "too strong" and then back to "too weak" then "too strong" and so on and on...

As for AAs it is not needed to cover entire half of a map in AA units. If you haven't read it yet, here is a topic which explains how AA works.

[Selicia]

Something that does really ruin any fun I have with the mod is the unbelievable amount of cheating the AI does. Like i'm used to AI being able to micromanage extremely well because it's just how AI are. But there's some things about this mod and the AI that just completely baffle me at times.

I know this mod is centered around PvP but I think it's worth listing some issues that ruin the fun of PvE.

- The AI suffers absolutely no upkeep penalty at all. I have taken the time to do exactly the same build order as the AI in many different maps and scenarios. I start to fall into a manpower deficit within 10 minutes into the match and can't continue producing the amount of units as the AI did.

- HQ Protection might protect against doctrine abilities, but that doesn't stop the AI from using the two Luftwaffe patrols on the border of your HQ area to abuse the patrol radius and still bomb your entire base away.

- It's practically impossible to use infantry to it's fullest due to the sheer spam the AI can pull out of it's ass. Not much you can do when your infantry gets insta-pinned and wiped from inhuman micromanagement. Which is accompanied by the point below in this statement.

- Mortars and Artillery vastly piss me off and is usually what frustrates me the most ontop of all of this. The AI abuse the hell out of the mortar barrage abilities and will barrage things that they don't even have vision on or would even be able to see. And a lot of times while i'm successfully micromanaging my troops well enough to fend off the spam of tanks or infantry, the AI just throws some mortar teams or halftracks behind their spam and wipes my squads.

- Also it seems the AI must have unlimited munitions because with only 50-75 income the AI are capable of using abilities that add up to almost 1000 munitions... A good example of it was having the AI use sector propaganda, which I confirmed by sending another squad and finding them retreat. And then having them use the normal ability on a squad in a different sector. They proceeded to fire a Stuka oil rocket barrage only 37 seconds later, following a second barrage 19 seconds after from a second Stuka. And lets not forget the Zeal ability which was used two times during all of this, as well as two model 24 grenades. They also used their officer condensed barrage during the propaganda (Inside my base and wiping my veteran infantry). I'm pretty sure this would exceed even the limit of munitions you can hold at max which I would hope also applies to AI's...

[MarKr]

There isn't really much that can be done. AI difficulty in this game is based on multiplication of resource income. I am not sure from top of my head but I think it is +0% for easy, +25% for normal, +50% for hard and +100% for brutal. This is also why it seems that AI is unaffected by upkeep - if you cap one low fuel point and get from it +10 instead of +5, you can afford to cover upkeep of more tanks with it. This is also the reason why it seems AI has unlimited ammo.

Arty is tedious for AI because it can basically see through FoW. FoW restrictions still apply so if you cannot send some ability to FoW, neither can AI but the arty can be fired to FoW and since the AI can see through FoW, it knows where to send it. Similar goes for camo - AI sees camoed units but camoed units are untargettable by normal means. But AI can send arty/mortar barrage there.

I don't think these things can be changed because it is how it was implemented even in the vCoH too.
I guess the AI could be programmed to use some abilities "more wisely" or to make different build orders or to build defenses at specific places but to be honest, I have no idea how to do it. I don't know how to program in LUA and don't have much time to start learning it. Usually if someone offers us some AI improvement files, we accept it and use it - lately it was sonsalt, before that it was Endro. So if you know something about this kind of programing, feel free to make changes

[Selicia]

So what i'm getting from this regarding the Comet tank is that you are supposed to move it around enemy tanks? Because it just gets one shot even in flank speed so I don't know what good it's speed does.

The comet was supposed to be an improved version of the cromwell. With a better gun and better armor. If you have to flank tanks to proper beat them with it then you've just made it a cromwell and not a comet. lol

[Warhawks97]

speed is more a thing in pvp rather than pve. In PvE you need armor and a big gun usually.

[Selicia]

speed is more a thing in pvp rather than pve. In PvE you need armor and a big gun usually.

Yeah that's what I figured. You can imagine how useless it is with how the AI have 500 tanks.

[Krieger Blitzer]

So what i'm getting from this regarding the Comet tank is that you are supposed to move it around enemy tanks? Because it just gets one shot even in flank speed so I don't know what good it's speed does.

The comet was supposed to be an improved version of the cromwell. With a better gun and better armor. If you have to flank tanks to proper beat them with it then you've just made it a cromwell and not a comet. lol

Nope, in order to kill a Panther with Cromwell.. you have no chance from the front, but your only option is to flank.
Comet on the other hand doesn't really have to flank the Panther, you can destroy it just frontally.. but if you have more Comets (which are cheap) then you would be able to flank even the King Tiger and knock it out easily... Cromwell can't harm the King Tiger or JagdTiger, not even by flanking.

[mofetagalactica]

Nope, in order to kill a Panther with Cromwell.. you have no chance from the front, but your only option is to flank.
Comet on the other hand doesn't really have to flank the Panther, you can destroy it just frontally.. but if you have more Comets (which are cheap) then you would be able to flank even the King Tiger and knock it out easily... Cromwell can't harm the King Tiger or JagdTiger, not even by flanking.

It can now, so just use cromwell and gg (at least on pvp) tanks are the only cheap that the CW has every other thing in their arsenal is expensive as fuck.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Ya, I know about the Cromwell.
I recently even killed 2 Panther.D with it.. and talked about that with MarKr privately, even before this topic was created...

The solution:
Achilles and Cromwell wouldn't have flank speed ability except with veterancy, vet1 or vet2.
This way, the Comet would have a clear advantage having flank speed by default.

[Viper]

Ya, I know about the Cromwell.
I recently even killed 2 Panther.D with it.. and talked about that with MarKr privately, even before this topic was created...

The solution:
Achilles and Cromwell wouldn't have flank speed ability except with veterancy, vet1 or vet2.
This way, the Comet would have a clear advantage having flank speed by default.

yes
i think 2 levels for achilles and 1 level for cromwell will be good

[Warhawks97]

Ya, I know about the Cromwell.
I recently even killed 2 Panther.D with it.. and talked about that with MarKr privately, even before this topic was created...

The solution:
Achilles and Cromwell wouldn't have flank speed ability except with veterancy, vet1 or vet2.
This way, the Comet would have a clear advantage having flank speed by default.

That wont happen bc thats what keeps them alive. M10 without flank speed is dead meat. It would be ok to reduce turret rotation speed to prevent too much dancing with M10 but flank speed is live. It has nothing else.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Flank speed was also what kept the Hetzer alive from Bazooka rush btw, but it was removed completely.. so what?
Here i didn't even suggest to remove it completely from the Achilles, however.. it would just require some veterancy.
Achilles would still have HE rounds to defend itself against inf rush, which is something both Jacksons and Hetzers don't have...

Regarding the Cromwell, they can kill Panthers too easily now after weakening the rear armor for heavies as you have seen on the msg i sent to you and MarKr few days ago. So, i'd say flank speed on veterancy level 1 would be more than justified... Cromwells would be still able to flank Panthers and kill them but at least 1 veterancy level will be needed in order to achieve this effectively.

This way Comet will have the advantage of flank speed by default over Achilles and Cromwell.. and Jacksons would also have the advantage of flank speed by default (after engine upgrade) or the static position and good armor for the B1 variant.

Or well, another idea that could also work:
it's to reduce the turret rotation speed for the Achilles to be same as M10 Wolverine, without removing flank speed.
While increasing the turret rotation speed for Comets on the other hand...
Nonetheless, I think Cromwell must have flank speed at vet1 or something.

[Warhawks97]

Flank speed was also what kept the Hetzer alive from Bazooka rush btw, but it was removed completely.. so what?
Here i didn't even suggest to remove it completely from the Achilles, however.. it would just require some veterancy.
Achilles would still have HE rounds to defend itself against inf rush, which is something both Jacksons and Hetzers don't have...

Why dont you ever listen/read?

I already wrote somewhere that its basically impossible or only with two pen hit triggering max damage to kill a hetzer in a single volley. Thats bc the zook max damage is as high as schrecks lowest possible damage. The M10 has in addition to that less HP and much weaker armor when attacked by enemie tanks and medium AT guns which is something you cant ignore. Still you keep ignoring it.