Old BK versions

Talk about CoH1 or BKMOD1 in general.
valkyrie
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Old BK versions

Postby valkyrie » 22 Apr 2018, 18:08

Dear Comrades,

may i ask if it is possible to get the old BK Versions somewhere, since i think they represented the German forces as being superior much better than the modern once. For example they don't take into account, that German optics were much more advanced and first round hit probability in general was much higher. The Tiger could shoot farther and with greater accuracy than any other allied tank and this is not realistically displayed in the modern versions.

Best regards

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|7th|Nighthawk
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Re: Old BK versions

Postby |7th|Nighthawk » 22 Apr 2018, 18:19

There is 4.8.6 on Mod DB, if you don't mind playing it against AI only, but I take it (and hope) that a Google search was already done by you in the first place.

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MarKr
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Re: Old BK versions

Postby MarKr » 22 Apr 2018, 20:22

Out of curiosity - in which patch was nerfed the accuracy of Axis guns? They are very accurate even at maximum range and have been like this since I can remember. Also in which BK version had Tiger tank bigger range than now? It seems like you're looking for some very old version of BK (like 2.0) and I don't know if that can be downloaded anywhere.
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Tiger1996
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Re: Old BK versions

Postby Tiger1996 » 22 Apr 2018, 22:22

valkyrie wrote:For example they don't take into account, that German optics were much more advanced and first round hit probability in general was much higher. The Tiger could shoot farther and with greater accuracy than any other allied tank and this is not realistically displayed in the modern versions.

Tiger1 has more range than any other tank in the game.. the Accurate Long Range Shot (ALRS) ability has a range of 90 which is even higher than Flak.88s by the way. Currently, the ALRS costs 50 ammo (for the Tiger1) and can never miss! At veterancy level.2 you can use this ability.
Though, since it's a regular shell.. then don't expect any boost to damage or penetration...

However;
The only thing that was rly nerfed, was the Tiger ACE as it was vet.3 by default in the past.. but now it's vet.1 so now it can't use the ALRS right away. Also, the ALRS ability now requires a bit more time to aim (about 4 to 5 seconds) before the Tiger1 actually fires. That's in addition to the fact that more Allied tanks are now able to bounce off Tiger's gun.. in the past, only Jumbo Shermans and Super Pershing could do that reliably.. but now Pershings and Churchills can also bounce off Tiger's cannon reliably, specifically at long range.

Recently Armor doc was also improved.. and now Pershing tank is superior vs Tiger1 in a head to head scenario, and also... Pershing has the "Rapid Shot" ability which is a huge advantage for the Pershing tank as it does allow the Pershing to shoot twice in the row, or even 3 times actually.. that's before the Tiger1 could even reload anything. Not to mention all your Pershing tanks will gain 1 veterancy level after a specific Armor doc unlock!

Nonetheless, based on all this... I've told MarKr recently that Tiger1 tank could be improved in terms of long range capabilities.. as it could have the ALRS ability available earlier at vet.1 while in return removing the flank speed ability, which doesn't make much sense for such a heavy tank anyway.
Needless to say Tiger ACE never had flank speed. According to the suggestion tho, the Tiger ACE would eventually get the ALRS by default again!
This would definitely make Tiger tanks easier targets for airstrikes, but that's fine as long as u get earlier access to ALRS ability on the other hand.

drivebyhobo
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Re: Old BK versions

Postby drivebyhobo » 26 Apr 2018, 18:10

valkyrie wrote:For example they don't take into account, that German optics were much more advanced and first round hit probability in general was much higher. The Tiger could shoot farther and with greater accuracy than any other allied tank and this is not realistically displayed in the modern versions.

I think you're conflating the Tiger with the King Tiger, which was indeed only inferior in range to the Super Pershing.

But to be clear, muzzle velocity largely determines the range of WW2 shells. The Tiger's muzzle velocity was far from exceptional in the Western front. The list of Allied tanks that had greater muzzle velocity and therefore range over the Tiger include: 17lber tanks ( Firefly, Achilles), Comet, Jackson, Pershing and the Super Pershing.

The benefit of high quality optics mostly comes from compensating for when the shell begins to significantly drop. The higher the muzzle velocity, the further the distance that it's necessary to rely on the accuracy of advanced optics. So it's really not quite so clear cut.


valkyrie wrote:Dear i think they represented the German forces as being superior much better than the modern once

Don't think anyone would argue against being universally true in older BK versions, but it was not always realistic.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Old BK versions

Postby Warhawks97 » 26 Apr 2018, 18:21

Shell weight is also important. Light shells with high muzzle velocity wouldnt shoot accurately over long distances either.

How effective a gun is over range depends on many factors, including the target itself. When we take the simple max range then Tiger would have two km less range than a 76 sherman. But effective range is different. The German had advanced gunsights when the gunner was skilled enough to use it. You did need to know the dimensions of the target to calculate the distance with help of gunsight "icons".
But once you knew the distance then both sides had gunsights that helped to exactly adjust to this range. Germans had an advantage in magnification and several steps of zooms.
Furthermore they had well armored tanks to protect them against long range shots while the enemie hadnt.
But if we would take Pershing vs Tiger, then both would have to get equally close to engage each other for example.
So the range thing in BK is not an easy thing. You cant generalize things.

RellHaiser
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Re: Old BK versions

Postby RellHaiser » 06 Jul 2018, 16:22

I have many old BK versions cataloged on one of my (currently unused) hard drives as I've played it on and off since 2009 when I discovered it and got a bunch of my buddies at a big Canadian LAN party called Fragapalooza to try it with me.

Will update here when/if I find the installers. My first step will be to copy them over to my NAS for safekeeping instead of sitting on some old drive...

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Kr0noZ
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Re: Old BK versions

Postby Kr0noZ » 08 Jul 2018, 22:18

Well, having that around somewhere might be cool.
Perhaps consider putting that up on a google drive?
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Engineers believe... if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet."
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Wolf52371
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Re: Old BK versions

Postby Wolf52371 » 02 Sep 2018, 16:58

On a related note, are they any versions from before the mod became principally PvP as opposed to PvE?

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MarKr
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Re: Old BK versions

Postby MarKr » 02 Sep 2018, 17:28

I would say any version still under development of Xalibur was a lot more PvE oriented, or at least "Compstomp as Axis" oriented.

In those versions a lot of Axis units were made stronger, or perhaps "realistic" while many units on the side of Allies did not get this "realistic adjustments" and sometimes left with vCoH stats (for example .50cals in general, .30cal Jeep, 57mm/6pounder AT gun, Churchills, 90mm guns etc.). I don't know if it was intention or simply a result of lack of time to adjust Allies too.
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Wolf52371
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Re: Old BK versions

Postby Wolf52371 » 02 Sep 2018, 18:23

I see, so basically it only worked for PvE because with the buffs the AI gets on the harder difficulties you basically had to skew the Germans better to stem the horde. I played a PvE on the latest version last night and it definitely was more of a chalenge, but also there was the issue of the AI being pretty braindead, both sides just seemed to set up their guys all in one spot and never really move (on Le Paradis).

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Jalis
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Re: Old BK versions

Postby Jalis » 02 Sep 2018, 18:27

valkyrie wrote:Dear Comrades,

The Tiger could shoot farther and with greater accuracy than any other allied tank and this is not realistically displayed in the modern versions.

Best regards


Tanks have not such such power. Crews have, and a coh/bk time germans crews were poors.

MarKr wrote:I don't know if it was intention or simply a result of lack of time to adjust Allies too.


It was intentional for sure, simply because allies had been adjusted ... but it was a nerf. 76 mm gun, sticky bomb, 57 mm gun, Sherman armor... ect

-----

Bk was probably at its top around 2011 / 2012. Most players at bk forum were, at this time, solo or lan coop. I think BK players may be still mainly pve / multi coop. When I look at online bk games, a large part sometime most are skirmish. PVP players even specify pvp in game name to avoid confusion. Pur solo player also exist but it is impossible to track them.

Roughly it still exist a large bk pve community despite they have been abandonned for a while and mod is less and less adapted for these players

I had a large collection of version frol 1.7 iirc to 4.8x. Last time I checked I still has 4.0x and 4.5x.
IIRC a major bk AI change was made with the 4.01

Old bk versions made game easier and even more funny to play as axis. Germans forces representation was almost "mythologic" and playing axis vs USA was about shot ducks in a barrel... And lot of players liked that.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Old BK versions

Postby Warhawks97 » 02 Sep 2018, 22:27

MarKr wrote:I would say any version still under development of Xalibur was a lot more PvE oriented, or at least "Compstomp as Axis" oriented.

In those versions a lot of Axis units were made stronger, or perhaps "realistic" while many units on the side of Allies did not get this "realistic adjustments" and sometimes left with vCoH stats (for example .50cals in general, .30cal Jeep, 57mm/6pounder AT gun, Churchills, 90mm guns etc.). I don't know if it was intention or simply a result of lack of time to adjust Allies too.


As you are saying it and checked it. They havent been "forgotten". The 57 mm and others had received significant nerfs while 50 mm´s got massive boosts. The axis maintained pen and quite high rof, allied (US) lost lots of pen power and rof. The Tank IV (basic versions) were penetrated by normal shermans untill receiving H version upgrade (upgrade 3).
We had the old HMG nest that was taken over from vcoh.

The cal 50 in vcoh could penetrate the sdkfz 222 vehicles with 35% chance and the 234 type with 4% chance. In BK its 10% an 1%. Sure damage was lower as all damage was lower in vcoh bc its voch. The low rate of fire as well as the poor accuracy got taken over from vcoh.
Also the damage per hit vs inf was more than three times higher for the cal 50 as for the top mounted MG 15 and thats why the cal 50 had half the accuracy and rof in order to even that out. In BK the average damage difference isnt that drastic anymore but the rof and accuracy difference remained so far.

Now comparing it:

in vcoh:
The Puma 20 mm had a max range pen chance vs greyhound of 7,893% with a damage of 8,1 per hit and 4 shots in a burst and many reloads but 40 range and 37,5% chance to hit it. The cal 50 (top mounted) had 4% pen vs Puma, fired 12-18 rounds per min and dealed 5,25 damage per hit. Reloaded far less often and hit with 10% probability and 35 range. As said, vs light PE vehicles it pened even with 35% chance to pen.

Now BK:
The Puma got higher rof and longer bursts which makes it shooting approx 9-10 shots per burst. It pens with 40,8% chance a greyhound and deals 68,75 damage per hit and hits with 50% chance.
The cal 50´s in general (top mounted) in BK have 1% chance to pen a sdkfz 234 (Puma), a 10% hit chance and deal 18,75 damage per hit. Against light PE vehicles the pen dropped to 10% in BK.

So while in vcoh both weapons were comparable and dealing approx the same ammount of damage (but not purposely anti vehicle weapons and instead just adding a light punch to other guns, in BK the 20 mm became a fully capable anti vehicle multipurpose gun while the cal 50 remains as a voch semi effective anti infantry weapon. In fact it got even drastically nerfed when compared to vcoh and esspecially when compared to the 20. While in vcoh both were quite similiar in damage (one favours range and accuracy, the other focused more on a sheer ammount of bullets in a burst while) output (vs light armored vehicles), that drastically changed in BK.

Sure, in BK the top mounts are standard and not a pay per weapon, however axis top mounted also required lots of tec. Personally i favour the vcoh way in which the cal 50 is the counterpart to axis 20 mm while it needs to be purchased on each tank and most vehicles.



@Markr:
Also both, the top mounted MG15 (that looks like an 42) and cal 50 have the old range brackets. short, mid and long range are still ending at 35 range. In Fact only short and mid range exist, long and distant is the same which is 35. In vcoh that was max range, in BK its half the maximum range. Thus In vcoh long and distant range had the same accuracy values bc max range didnt exist basically and thats why long and distant had both the same accuracy values. In BK long range isnt the max range anymore. However, axis top mounted remained their high long range accuracy as distant range while the cal 50 afterall use the low max (long range bracket) range despite the fact that the range in BK got extended laregly. So old devs didnt change anything except simply increasing max range in which the mg15 takes advantage of old accuracy stats while the cal 50 suffers from it.

So here a change in range brackets seems desirable.


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