New Patch, old Stories- A little feedback about artillery and other things

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Warhawks97
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New Patch, old Stories- A little feedback about artillery and other things

Postby Warhawks97 » 17 Apr 2018, 14:59

Alright and hello All-together. I managed to get a few more games and a the first two more intense games against more known players. (Before i played with a mates acc in order not to get thrown into always same games with same player names).

As much as we can praise the latest 5.14 patch (and 5.13) with all its improvments (i like many of them), a lot of things remain the very same over years (and perhaps centuries).

The 2 vs 2 feeling has improved by a lot. Esspecially US are competetive and their units more fun to use. In particular their infantry combat is far more enjoyable but still requires some sort of skill. But at least you dont get overruned just like that anymore by hordes of stg equiped infantry.
The shermans are also more fun to use. I used shermans (76) as infantry doctrine sometimes. Not their firepower but their armor. Last evening i played a 2 vs 2 with a mate in his first 5.14 game. The first thing he said (in german): "The shermans feel like they have got some armor".
But all that fun in 2 vs 2 is bc the artillery is usually far less due to natural res limitations.


But if you scale up into 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 it all keeps the same bullshit:
Artillery as super tool.
Everything and in particular tanks are dying all time to artillery.
In a 3 vs 3, after like 20-30 mins of playing, the game turned again into pure arty bombardment. Wherever we placed our tanks, our shermans, M10´s and jacksons, they all got shot by arty basically. And The best counter to Axis that spam Stugs and Hetzers? Oh wonder, artillery.

In matches with less experienced axis players that was less the case. As long as these guys went for tigers the overall game was a lot more based on real combat. With units vs units. Thats bc they spend less ressources for large defenses. However, the tanks then died to arty quite often as well.

But in more common situations with more experienced players there is simply no more rush for tigers and panthers. The current Meta is to rush for vehicles with 20 mm gun, 50 mm AT and mortar. The Hetzer, far in the past never considered to build, today the most spammed unit along with stugs are causing the ultimate lock down.
Allies start using artillery against these tanks. US in particualar have trouble dealing with a combination of cheap Puma type vehicles, stugs, hetzers and mortar. Infantry with zooks cant rush it just like that and even if, they will never score a kill. And guns are unreliable afterall.
So axis started defending and thus their rather small offensives get repelled by Allis that also stuck in the defensive, allis come with arty, axis come with arty, too. Axis have more of it and everything is frutstrating.
I mean when you lose three units within 5 seconds at different spots of the map by random artillery salvos.... When you have no time to even prepare an attack bc once a unit is repaired/reinforced/healed, another one gets hit again. There is no damn second you get not hit by hit.


So going more into the detail:

1. Fix artillery. Just Fix it. Tanks main death cause is artillery. It has been like that for years and its one thing that ruins BK basically.
- Tanks, all of them, should receive less damage from arty shells that striking near it. Dont make them all blowing up instant by near hits. Direct hits can afterall deal nice damage. I know its possible to make direct hits causing decent damage while near hits cause more crits on tanks rather than blowing them up outright. You see more tanks dying to artillery rather than seeing tanks getting some crits from artillery.
. Same for Bomb drops. Increase damage in the explosion center, reduce the AoE effectivenss vs tanks with help of the TT. Perhaps stunning effects are possible as well. Better than seeing all tanks dying outright.
2. That sounds like irony but US static howitzers are usless. Damage etc is fine. Just they have nothing to compete with any other arty. Even TH doc can counter them easily with hotchkiss and fields on the long term more destructive artillery power.
Static howitzers do need something to compensate. At least their range advantage over ordinary rocket artillery should be large enough to be not countered by those all day long with ease.
3. Now something not artillery related stuff. The Allied TD´s ambush mode must be deactivated manually. Thats very citical bc you have to run if the first shot didnt kill the target. The armor is paper thin. I dont ask for an automatic activation of flank speed after ambush. Just ambush mode should be disabled so that you can move your tank more easily away. I lost multiple TD´s to such causes. Every second matters and deactivating this ability manually is the second that makes your td dying.
4. Flanking targets must become generally more rewarding. Not that a stuart shall pen a tigers rear easily. But tanks like churchills, KT, Jagdtiger, Elephant and Panthers are only dying to artillery and planes.
And shermans die to arty not bc there is no other way to stop them, they die accidentially by shells landing in their proximity.

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Re: New Patch, old Stories- A little feedback about artillery and other things

Postby MarKr » 18 Apr 2018, 12:34

As I read it, it seems you mostly complain about arty but also about other stuff - Allies having hard time countering Axis light vehicles and everyone using Hetzers. In your topic you spoke about applying same "damage reduction" as Allies have (which is about 25%) so....what will that change in this matter? Same vehicles/tanks/TDs will still be used because they will be even less threatened by artillery. You will keep repairing your tanks anyway because even with damage reduction they would still take some damage and repairs would be needed. I agree that artillery is sort of "universal counter to everything" and something should be done about it but I don't see how "fixing arty" (as you called it) would solve the rest of things you spoke about here.
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Re: New Patch, old Stories- A little feedback about artillery and other things

Postby Warhawks97 » 18 Apr 2018, 14:09

MarKr wrote:As I read it, it seems you mostly complain about arty but also about other stuff - Allies having hard time countering Axis light vehicles and everyone using Hetzers. In your topic you spoke about applying same "damage reduction" as Allies have (which is about 25%) so....what will that change in this matter? Same vehicles/tanks/TDs will still be used because they will be even less threatened by artillery. You will keep repairing your tanks anyway because even with damage reduction they would still take some damage and repairs would be needed. I agree that artillery is sort of "universal counter to everything" and something should be done about it but I don't see how "fixing arty" (as you called it) would solve the rest of things you spoke about here.



The first thing is that too many allied Tanks and Vehicles die outright to artillery. I made a calculation somewhere recently. So giving simply the same 25% damage reduction to allied tanks and vehicles would help a lot keeping them alive. Repairing stuff is one thing that doesnt cost you something but time. But the units are at least still there when it comes to counter the enemie or to build up a larger army in the long term. Currently the loss rate as allied to artillery alone in 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 exceeds any counter production by far after 20-30 mins of playing. It would be one thing to be hit by arty first and then fighting a battle against the enemie attack. But there is simply no attack at all. Its more effective than any of our modern artillery, guided bombs and cruise missiles. Even today you have to fight a battle after using arty. But in BK you can win the whole war just by throwing arty in every corner of the map. And its not the precise kind of arty that is so annoying. Against precious arty you can simply use numbers bc it takes out one target at a time. But the mass of arty and that there is simply so many of it and that that two hits in the far proximity of an allied tank can blow it up is so annyoing. You cant go in numbers bc you will then simply lose more since one hit can destroy them, but going in quality also doesnt help since there is also so much accurate arty that can kill it outright.

So i was thinking about the following.

Right now howitzers like the 105 have 335 damage. Thats multiplied with factor 1.5 in the center. Means its damage is 502,5. Allied tanks and vehicles take this full damage, axis take 25% less which is then 376,875 damage. Right next to this explosion center, the radius from 1-3 the damage already drops by a lot. The damage modifier is 0.75. Allis take 251,25 damage, axis take 188,4775 due to their special damage reduction.
Nebelwerfer in clibre 150 mm have a lower damage with 100-150 but bigger blast area. They dont get damage increase in the explosion center.
The stuka zu Fuß has 350 damage, same blast area and in the center a 1.15 (15%) boost. This explosion center is also bigger than those of 105 arty. So allied tanks and vehicles take 402 damage in the center and 262 beyond the the explosion center (3 radius).
The 210 nebler works different again. Has also a blast radius of 15 and a damage of 350 but that one gets doubled in the center bringing it up to 700 damage. Luckily allied tanks take 25% less damage which lowers it to "only" 525. This center has a radius of 2 range (thus smaller than walking stuka) but the damage in the medium range circle is higher and the same against tanks and vehicles. Also the 210 has listed an AoE of 15 but the damage modifier from 13-15 radius is "0" (weird)

My Suggestion would be:
1.Unify the walking stuka and 210 mm nebler in terms of AoE damage modifier etc. Why does the 210 has more damage in the center while stuka has different AoE values and so on. Very weird stuff. The stuka can be a bit more powerfull since it uses even bigger rockets. But the general behaviour (modifiers) should be more similiar. Rigt now these two weapons have almost nothing in common in terms of its behaviour. 210 is better when hitting close, the stuka better in AoE damage.
2. Increase the damage in the center of the explosion. 1.5-2 modifier (50-100% more). In return allied tanks and vehicles would receive the same 25% damage reduction. A direct hit of a 105 mm shell would deal 502,5 damage. The same as now. But a close hit would deal just 188,4375 damage.
Perhaps you wont have to take these exact same values. Just i think that arty should be quite fatal when hitting directly a tank, but less when hitting closer to it. In return increase the chance of critical hits by near hits to tanks and vehicles.
3. Remove the scatter reduction from axis rocket arty by vet steps. They become ultimate anti tank weapons that way and fail to serve their purpose of area bombardment.
4. Same for (US) bomber. Increase the damage in the center (doubling it so it deals 1400 damage there while reduce the damage in the target tables of tanks so that it wont take out tanks at the very edge of the explosion. In return increase crit chance as well.
5. Apply point 4 to ST, too.
6. Assault arty should never exceed 175 range. Above this range should be the playground of the bigger (longer barreld) howitzers. Walking stuka would have 150 range like calliopes. 210 and 150 mm nebelwerfer batteries 175 range. Static howitzers (not counting the 88 here) as well as priest/Hummel/Wespe/25 pdr 225-275 range. This balance between rocket assault arty and howitzers is currently much better in vcoh.

I mean these numbers are just a suggestion which i tested by myself. You can test arround yourself. Just something needs to be done to prevent that whole armies with vehicles and tanks are vanishing so quickly just bc some missiles landed in the far proximity.


We would solve several problems. 1. Games wont be that easy to win by pure arty spam as it wouldnt be possible to kill as many tanks and vehicles in a single barrage. You would damage stuff but damaging stuff alone wouldnt make you win the battle and if anyone still wants to win with arty alone then he would have to spend even more ammo for it. Only when combining the arty strike with an assault would lead to effective destruction. 2. Howitzers (static) wouldnt be so usless. Their advantage would be long range and quite accurate in trade for being immobile and expensive. 3.

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Re: New Patch, old Stories- A little feedback about artillery and other things

Postby kwok » 18 Apr 2018, 19:21

I think the ideas are good but a counter balancing proposal is needed especially post AT gun a time fixes. The ironic meta right now is AT guns act as HE shot platforms that counter inf, tanks countering AT guns with raw durability and firepower, and artillery countering tanks. This meta intuitively is backwards but at least playable because there is a “circle of counters”. Implementing only this fix will turn the game into a tank heavy meta where the best tank counter is other tanks, making the game either a “first five minutes wins whole game because of fuel lead” or “RNG saves the day” (assuming all players play optimally and mistakeless).

I know AT guns were adjusted to cover exploits, but flat buffs to the AT gun aren’t enough to balance the new shortfalls without turning AT guns into cheesy units, likened to how warhawks describes artillery currently. My proposed solution is to modify how we look at vehicle mobility in general, especially for light vehicles. Maybe bring my other experimental post back into consideration?

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Re: New Patch, old Stories- A little feedback about artillery and other things

Postby Warhawks97 » 18 Apr 2018, 20:41

kwok wrote:I think the ideas are good but a counter balancing proposal is needed especially post AT gun a time fixes. The ironic meta right now is AT guns act as HE shot platforms that counter inf, tanks countering AT guns with raw durability and firepower, and artillery countering tanks. This meta intuitively is backwards but at least playable because there is a “circle of counters”. Implementing only this fix will turn the game into a tank heavy meta where the best tank counter is other tanks, making the game either a “first five minutes wins whole game because of fuel lead” or “RNG saves the day” (assuming all players play optimally and mistakeless).

I know AT guns were adjusted to cover exploits, but flat buffs to the AT gun aren’t enough to balance the new shortfalls without turning AT guns into cheesy units, likened to how warhawks describes artillery currently. My proposed solution is to modify how we look at vehicle mobility in general, especially for light vehicles. Maybe bring my other experimental post back into consideration?


AT guns so far doesnt work so bad. Just its positioning is more important. The only units causing trouble are those with flank speed. Crowmells but also certain vehicles can pass AT guns quite easily before they even manage to make a single shot. So basically only medium tanks are vulnerable. The fast tanks can pass AT before they fire, the bigger tanks can simply rely on armor.
I think its a mix of both, weakned AT at the one hand and very devestating effect of arty against tanks on the other.

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Re: New Patch, old Stories- A little feedback about artillery and other things

Postby kwok » 18 Apr 2018, 22:09

What you just described is exactly what I mean, warhawks. Just without examples.

It’s not just medium tanks though, it’s lighter tanks and vehicles like Daimler’s, pumas, tetrarchs, and other “devil cars” (a term so created by mefisto after he had a taste of shadow and I abusing the ballet-level agility of vehicles). As of now, AT guns essentially get one shot at a vehicle before a good player responds to the threat and either dodges and kill an AT gun or runs away safely. It’s a game of positioning AND RNG. And once that AT gun is revealed then it’s free to be arty’d to kingdom come.

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Re: New Patch, old Stories- A little feedback about artillery and other things

Postby Tiger1996 » 19 Apr 2018, 14:35

Why should Allied tanks get same arty damage reduction as Axis tanks? Aren't the Allied tanks already much cheaper?
Let's have a look here.. what are the most 2 expensive British tanks?
Firefly (550 MP/ 80 fuel) and Croc Churchill (1100 MP) These are the MOST expensive CW tanks.

Now, let's see how many Axis tanks are more expensive than Firefly and Churchill in comparison...
JagdPanther (180 F / 1000 MP) or (160 F / 900 MP), Panther.D (680 MP / 110 fuel), King Tiger (1200 MP / 200 fuel), Tiger1 (170 fuel / 975 MP) .....
Should I even continue? Simply insane prices.

And for USA, why should a 750 MP jumbo take same arty reduction as Panther.G which costs 830 MP and 155 fuel? The 76 Jumbo is equivalent to Panther tanks.. but Axis can never produce a Panther for 750 MP really! MOST expensive US tank is Pershing tank, but still.. too far away from being REALLY expensive when compared with the most expensive Axis tanks on the other hand.
So, generally Allied tanks are more easily affordable than Axis tanks.. why should Allied tanks be able to survive the same way then?
Not to mention that I still believe that Axis tanks are extremely vulnerable to Allied arty after all.. even with the 25% damage reduction.

Warhawks97 wrote:3. Remove the scatter reduction from axis rocket arty by vet steps. They become ultimate anti tank weapons that way and fail to serve their purpose of area bombardment.
4. Same for (US) bomber. Increase the damage in the center (doubling it so it deals 1400 damage there while reduce the damage in the target tables of tanks so that it wont take out tanks at the very edge of the explosion. In return increase crit chance as well.
5. Apply point 4 to ST, too.

Those 3 points in particular, I can never support.. sorry.
It takes a lot until you hopefully reach vet.2 with a Walking Stuka when u would finally get this scatter reduction.. meaning a lot of ammo wasted beforehand for only a few kills. So, I can't see why the scatter reduction should no longer apply with veterancy steps...
For example the Priest rate of fire, damage and also accuracy.. simply unreal when it's vet.4 and clearly better than any 155mm arty!

in my humble opinion; Airborne planes and SturmTiger are absolutely fine as they are currently.. in terms of AoE and damage, or anything related.
The only thing is that SturmTiger should cost 900 MP and the max range should be 120 instead of 200 in addition to increasing the minimum range.
And surely no more view required in order to fire...

Warhawks97 wrote:4. Flanking targets must become generally more rewarding. Not that a stuart shall pen a tigers rear easily. But tanks like churchills, KT, Jagdtiger, Elephant and Panthers are only dying to artillery and planes.

I can only agree that 76mm guns shouldn't have zero chance vs JT rear, and the same way... 75mm L/48 guns shouldn't have zero chance vs Croc rear.

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Re: New Patch, old Stories- A little feedback about artillery and other things

Postby Warhawks97 » 19 Apr 2018, 14:51

Lols... really? cheaper? Couldnt you read?

The loss rate alone to arty after 30 mins of playing in 3 vs 3 is usually higher as the replacment rate... you cant just keep spaming units over units just to lose them all to arty before they managed to get into combat...You get totally battered into oblivion with little chance to even plan and execute a proper attack. Meanwhile axis get cps and cps and cps... their arty is is the finest CP farming machinery in the entire game. When released the artillery monster of Terror doctrine (ST and walking stuka and firestorm) is Brutal as fuck. It did cost me the entire ammo so far but dont need to spend ammo for anything else (free stg, no need for AP rounds or anything so stockpiling ammo as terror is an easy thing). But i unlocked the entire tank tree till panther in a single arty assault. I had 1 CP when i started my firework and a few seconds later i had the Panther unlock. Tell me pls, how many CP are that? 5?6? .... just by arty within seconds? BULLSHIT is that.

There is no "cheaper" tank for fuck sake.... Firefly cost over 500 MP and tons of fuel. And its basically just an anti tank unit. Stugs dont need an unlock and cost 400 and less CP and get this damage reduction..And where is a Pershing cheaper than a Panther.
+ Allied tanks (jumbo and pershing) are veery vulnerable to flanking. Any axis gun has 100% rear pen chance basically. Panther meanwhile is extremely resistant to flanking attacks from weapons weaker than 76 guns (a Pershing gets 100% rear pen by stubvy 75 and 50 mm)

Where is the Greyhound or a simple fucking halftrack cheaper than a Puma or german counterpart.

Just stop that fucking bullshit.
On top of that this 25%damage reduction is what cheap axis tanks get from damage reduction.
Dont let me start with Jagdpanthers and others which take 40-50% less damage.... And Zimmerit further reduces it by 25%.....

And i dont want make it an axis vs alli topic. The issues are deeper.
Most important things to solve are 1. that we apply the same tt damage against allied tanks as axis have to prevent total army anihilation to arty alone.2. Making flanking more rewarding (there are tanks basically immun to it) and 3. that the arty is too often the best or even the only tool to counter (certain) tanks.


And why rocket arty shouldnt get scatter reduction by vet? Bc its rocket arty. Callis also dont get scatter reduction (and the calli jeep does not have more rockets than a maultier for example and even less damage/range). Furthermore rocket arty start fail to do their supposed job. You dont want 10 missiles hitting the same MG which is dead by the first missile already.....

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Re: New Patch, old Stories- A little feedback about artillery and other things

Postby Tiger1996 » 19 Apr 2018, 15:10

Simply that was my opinion.. so calm down man, u don't have to rant about it. I think u would definitely expect very different opinions on this topic... After all, I will avoid further arguments; at least for now.. just to ease the tension ;)

Though; 1 thing to say...
Warhawks97 wrote:Furthermore rocket arty start fail to do their supposed job. You dont want 10 missiles hitting the same MG which is dead by the first missile already.....

Hmm, I wouldn't want my 10 missiles to hit nothing either.. specifically when it's veteran.

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Re: New Patch, old Stories- A little feedback about artillery and other things

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 19 Apr 2018, 16:55

I think everything hawks says regarding axis "arty spam" is pure bullshit. Neblers and maultiers are shit that make very little damage against tanks, also you will never take out high veted inf with it, most of the time it is just a waste of ammo.

Most importantly, there were a lot of measures taken in order to solve the problem of Axis arty. The issue have been solved succefully in my opinion.

To remind:
- Walking stuka became 5 CP
- Nebler removed from Luft doc
- Wespe delayed in CP points
- 210mm nebler got its barrage price increased

So, there is nothing in his suggestions besides buffing already overbuffed allies even more.

Btw I only can see a single balance problem at the moment - Axis suck in early-mid game because allies are more flexible and have much more cost-effective units: rifles, infantry section, recce, AT boys, Quad cal, 57mm Truck, Daimler, Tetrach - all these units kick ass! While WH only has Puma as a cool unit and PE doesnt have a single effective light vehicle. Axis can only seat behind sandbags with their K98 and pak 38 for the first 25-30 minutes, thats it.

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Re: New Patch, old Stories- A little feedback about artillery and other things

Postby Warhawks97 » 19 Apr 2018, 19:50

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote: Axis can only seat behind sandbags with their K98 and pak 38 for the first 25-30 minutes, thats it.


Which everybody does. Stugs/hetzers/Puma out to make a very short job with these "kick ass units"... and then two terror docs or def or SE.... or even Th doc spamming hotchkiss.... and we are at the same point-> Arty spam.

These kick ass units need perfect timing, micro, knowlegde of enemies strenght and weaknesses and often teamplay. Each of these units have a short time to shine.... mess this timing or lose one of them in a mistake (which you are not allowed to do.... no matter if jeep, rifle squad, first sherman, recce, first churchill, first greyhound, first daimler) and its all over.... pray that your RA mate is a fucking BK god at this point.

I am making mistakes all over the place... losing units here and there.... but axis are in this respect more forgivable in my opinion. And if you mess the timing, well...just try to get into late game. When you manage to get into late stage with enough areas held (and enemie having no RA) you usually win.

I usually feel a huge ammount of pressure as ally throughout the first 20 mins not to make any mistake. And if you dont have the luxus of always having the same known mates/players on your side (elite BK circle) this pressure becomes even more painfull... and such pressure leads often to even more mistakes while you are not allowed to make just one fucking single mistake (speaking not just of not losing a unit but also mistake in terms of wrong unlock, missunderstanding with your mate, wrong build order, unit build too late).



and about cost efficiency....
Imagine you want to counter a 76 sherman (the new kind of shermans with armor) and you have no good medium tanks. Going for stug? Well, upgrading it entirely costs like 100 ammo? Fight sherman with AP to increase win chance and thats what? 175 ammo? The stug costs what? As much as walking stuka.

So how do i proceed? Rush for walking stuka (perhaps first boosting inf, depends) and get stugs (no upgrade). Two stugs unupgraded spares 200 ammo.... for that you can almost fire two barrages.... so my stugs are just there as support and to stop enemie tanks, the walking stuka can engage (or not since stug can kill any sherman without upgrades).

Or there is a Pershing and oyu have panther... costs with all upgrades and AP ability almost 200 ammo.... Get a stug instead or two and kill things like pershings with stuka barrage and perhaps AT squad.

The ST is the most effective TD in game actually. No tank in game can kick pershings and churchills asses as cheap as that one can. Exception perhaps Jagdpanther or JT/Elephant.

Or TH doc... later you dont need any upgrade at all so lots of ammo for your hotchkiss. I dont get anything bigger than hetzers... at best one IV/70 as saftey back up. But usually hetzers hold the line and in case churchills or pershings approach i just fire hotchkiss.


The 150 mm neblers are fine and i am not really complain about it.... just that its possible to make all 10 missiles from maultier hitting the same point. Pretty usefull against.... oh yes, tanks.



But same goes in the other direction, too.
Countering a Hetzer or tank IV H/J... against both approx 50% pen chance.
Using 76 sherman that costs as much as a howitzer and with ammo upgrades+ using AP costing 125 ammo and risk to lose it very likely in such engagments? Nope... get a 105 arty for same (emplaced) or cheaper (naked) price and fire almost three barrages for this ammount of ammo with no risk losing it to hetzer/Tank IV. The 105 is the best inf doc has to beat these targets (esspecially when they are supported by anti inf vehicle or inf).
So how do i proceed here? Get lots of AT guns as defense and get 105 howitzer to kill them.


Tiger1996 wrote: I think u would definitely expect very different opinions on this topic...


yes, indeed. Not that standard "But its cheaper" (lie) that pops up all day long.



Hmm, I wouldn't want my 10 missiles to hit nothing either.. specifically when it's veteran.


Well, i shoot them when there are enough targets... and not just bc "I expected something to be there" or bc "there is just one MG crew but i dont want to risk anything".


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