Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Talk about CoH1 or BKMOD1 in general.
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Tiger1996
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Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Tiger1996 » 15 Feb 2018, 15:10

Haven't done such topics in a very long time... Though, I think there have been a lot of balance discussions throughout the past period ever since the release of the last patch, therefore.. as a continuation to this topic by Hawks; (viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2479) I then decided that I create this new topic here in order to collect all the recent feedback! Just so everyone would be able to track what's happening, I will be linking related topics below each point when possible. Let's keep in mind though, that this topic has nothing to do with the doctrinal reworking plans which currently are in fact nothing except some "thoughts" only on paper... So, this topic focus only at the current state of doctrines.


Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback:

#BUGS

1) invisible troops inside the US transporter half-track.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2402

2) Airborne FHQ strafe run defensive patrol disappearing after the AP bullets upgrade.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2528

3) M8 Scott unable to use off-map arty barrage despite having a tank commander inside.

4) Pz4.F1 deployable in infantry only mode.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1769

5) Defensive doctrine flak88 emplacement arty barrage bug. (very old bug)

6) Tiger ACE not dealing anymore damage to anything nearby, which is good... However, the crew inside nearby emplacements are still taking damage, but I confirm that the emplacements themselves don't take damage anymore.. just the crew inside now.

7) JagdPanther cone of fire should be more narrow.. with +5 more basic range from 65 to 70, or even without any basic range increase.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2430
>>> If the basic range ever increase by 5 then the reload time can increase to 7 seconds to compensate.

Please remind me in case I forgot something...

====================================================

#BALANCE & SUGGESTIONS (open to further discussion of course)

1) Pershing ACE available after the SP is destroyed.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2530

2) Volks should be able to purchase 2x MP40 for 25 ammo two times, instead of one time 4x MP40 for 50 ammo.

3) Possible rework to "Vehicles Button" ability.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2495

4) RA doc "Smoke" ability possible rework.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2474

5) SturmTiger should be a bit more expensive, from 700 MP to 900MP or even 1000MP.

>>> Note: It's worth to mention that some people also think that the range is too much, and the AoE damage is too high as well... Although that personally I don't think so, as I think the damage is absolutely fine.. but I guess it's ok to lower the range from 200 to 120 but then without any view required in order to shoot anymore.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2486

6) Removal of "hit and run tactics" ability from both M10 Achilles and Wolverine.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2495#p23841

7) Comet tank should be unlimited.

8) AT teams could be ALL 60MP cheaper to produce.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2203

9) Henschel AT air patrol cost increase from 200 to 250 ammo.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Now, I would like to separate the following points.. despite that these points are also categorized as "balancing & suggestions" but the difference is that the following points are a little bit more of "my own suggestions" rather than something globally discussed within the community overall...


10) WH 50mm Paks should no longer have 100 ammo rocket ability, instead.. it could be given to the special 37mm Blitz doctrine half-track.

>>> I really don't like how such a cheap early unit which is also available in all WH doctrines.. can just smash expensive stuff with this deadly thing... Specifically knowing that PE 50mm Paks don't have it on the other hand!

11) US and CW 57mm halftrack basic range should be reduced from 75 to 65, and increased when ambushed from 65 to 75 in addition to more accuracy.

12) Elefant tank could have Accurate Long Range Shot ability for 100 ammo and 100 range, without any veterancy levels required.
And maybe +5 basic range as well, from 65 to 70 with reload time increase to 7 seconds too.. and of course the removal of static position.

13) Pz4.J is too cheap currently in Blitz doctrine, I suggest that the price would be 500MP/60F in Blitz doctrine for 3 CPs (instead of currently 410MP/45F), and then after 2 more CPs for mass production.. it becomes cheaper again to 410MP/45F instead of 380MP/30F currently.


That's all, any opinions are welcome.

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby seha » 15 Feb 2018, 16:12

what about this old idea to make leig18 be used more often?
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1574

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Tiger1996 » 15 Feb 2018, 17:05

Ya, that one suggestion is very old.. good that you brought this up!
I think it could be restricted to Defensive doctrine or Blitz doctrine only, but then being available together with the 50mm Pak in this 1 doc for sure.

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Feb 2018, 19:14

Bugs:
7. yes (also to range increase in exchange for reload time increase to emphasize more on offensives). Also why does this unit has more HP than a normal panther. This i just a normal question for which answer i am waiting for a long time already.

suggestion:
1. I have no opinion here. I dont like any of them :P
2. Yes (my idea :P)
3/4: Yes
5. Cost can stay. Just 120 range, no view required, less than 6 min reload. Damage at the edge of the explosion should kill tanks outright. Damaging would be ok, Direct hits means death of course.
6. yes
7. yes.
8. I would go down step by step to see the changes and results. Not saying it shouldnt, just not right away so much.
9. ok perhaps.
10. Not a bad idea.
11. 60 and 70 from ambush. But 65 would already be much better as it is now with more range from ambush.
12. Basic reload time and range up is ok. But idk. If not this tank get statc pos which other unit would be more suited? static would give slightly better reload and range would go up to 75.
13. Yeah. The J is atm quite.... ridiculous.

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Devilfish » 15 Feb 2018, 23:04

Hello, my suggestions:
-Remove flank speed from every vehicle in the game
-Make every single TD in the mod auto-fire from ambush and include button for hold fire
"Only by admitting what we are can we get what we want"

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Feb 2018, 23:21

Devilfish wrote:Hello, my suggestions:
-Remove flank speed from every vehicle in the game


why not

-Make every single TD in the mod auto-fire from ambush and include button for hold fire


yeah. pls.

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Tiger1996 » 16 Feb 2018, 12:55

Warhawks97 wrote:Also why does this unit has more HP than a normal panther. This i just a normal question for which answer i am waiting for a long time already.

Hmm, I think the reason why JagdPanther has more HP is because it's more of a "heavy tank hunter" which is also more expensive so the HP is higher to avoid getting one-shoted and so on... So I think it's fine.
Warhawks97 wrote:Basic reload time and range up is ok. But idk. If not this tank get statc pos which other unit would be more suited? static would give slightly better reload and range would go up to 75.

Thing is, when the Elefant is "stationary" then it's pretty much dead :P Such a slow tank has no chance to escape even when it's moving... Therefore, I think the static position does not fit on this tank at any possible point, also.. as I already mentioned several times in the past, all 88 cannon tanks in this game have the accurate long shot ability; Tiger1, KingTiger, and JagdPanther.. all except the Elefant somehow!
Although that the Elefant is actually the most tank that is supposed to work as a long range tank hunter...
It should have been the first 88 cannon tank to ever receive such a long range ability.

Devilfish wrote:-Remove flank speed from every vehicle in the game

Well, I can understand that the "flank speed" ability is somewhat silly... Since that the tank behaves so unrealistically when this ability is activated.. the acceleration becomes so unreal and also the reverse maneuver. However, I think entirely removing this ability would only make some tanks in particular become so useless, for example the Cromwell tank.. and some other tanks would only become easier targets to airstrikes and arty.
Let's also not forget that your fuel income is significantly reduced as long as the flank speed ability is activated for each tank!
So, I honestly think it's not really a great idea to remove the flank speed ability from ALL tanks in the game...
Despite that I still totally appreciate how silly the flank speed ability is.

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby seha » 16 Feb 2018, 17:40

Devilfish wrote:Remove flank speed from every vehicle in the game

specifically tiger tank :D

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Tiger1996 » 16 Feb 2018, 18:17

Well, I suggested to remove the flank speed from the Tiger1 tank in the past.. but in return, I also suggested to allow the ALRS ability at vet1 earlier.
Apparently, the idea was never accepted though :P

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Devilfish » 18 Feb 2018, 13:54

Imo, flank speed doesn't fit the gameplay. Tank/vehicle speed and acceleration should be balanced carefully to fit their role and weight out other specs like armor, firepower, price. Flank ability just allows you effortlessly withdraw from danger, chase down tanks/vehicles and bypass AT guns with unnatural, ridiculous speed.

Other suggestions:
-butterfly bombs should be drop-able only in own territory. Mines are defensive tool and makes zero sense to drop it on the heads of enemy solders. Also shouldn't be that crazy effective against vehicles, tanks. Especially not causing so much critical damage.

-vampire truck - pure bullshit/cheat, lot of fun in BK is based on "spotter war", sneaky AT squads and well placed hidden mgs/at guns and TD ambushes. Vampire simply totally ruins this for almost 0 cost, no drawbacks, huge range. No place in BK mod for this. (same applies for RAF radio triangle, but it's almost never used cause it's very hard to set up properly)
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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Warhawks97 » 18 Feb 2018, 14:38

Butterfly bombs were no mines so far. Thy got dropped like normal bombs above enemies and exploding by contact. There had been a version of mines but rarley used or just developed. Practically its not impossible to lay mines in enemie territory. By ground forces, airplanes or ships. The effeciency against vehicles and the ammount of crits is more annoying.

About flank speed i just agree.

The radio triangulation is partly realistic. Airplanes for example could use it to find their way. You could "lock on" normal public radio stations or whatever emitted radio waves to finding out its position. So via triangulation it would perhaps not be completely unrealistic to find at least vehicles with radios.

PE inf from TH doc can also spot vehicles in fog of war and ambushed vehicles on the minimap but somehow i find it to be an interesting feature.

Regarding the Vampire it is indeed very easy to use and almost cheat. Radio triangulation isnt easy to do and skilled players will figure out sooner or later what the RAF dude did. TH doc spots just tanks which is ok since the inf will be in danger. But i am not sure what else besides this (and res stealing) vampire could do.
Perhaps able to be used as spotter + res stealing + able to call in the 88 VT?

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Devilfish » 18 Feb 2018, 14:50

If butterflies aren't mines but bombs, why is there no plane like with other bombs/strafe and why do they turn invisible upon landing?

I honestly don't care whether this or that is realistic, simply vampire is a complete bs gameplay wise. RAF radio is the same but at least it's really hard to utilize on most maps and games.
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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Tiger1996 » 18 Feb 2018, 16:15

Let's not forget that not very long ago, SD2 butterfly bombs received more cool-down time and also higher cost.. it used to cost only 80 ammo as far as I can remember but now it costs 120 ammo. Though, I would be fine if it's drop-able only in friendly territory as well as neutral territory, but then I think the price would have to go down to around 80 ammo once again.

Regarding flank speed, I guess I can agree.. but then some vehicles might need a bit of tweaking!
For example, the Cromwell basic speed would have to be increased and so on.. but the flank speed bonus which is activated prior to ambush for Hellcats, Wolverines and Achilles would probably have to be removed too? Hmm.

As for the Vampire half-track and the Radio Triangle; I think they are somewhat fine, otherwise the Vampire half-track would be rather useless...
Though, I have to say that all these are actually interesting points.

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Kr0noZ » 18 Feb 2018, 20:57

As far as the SD2 boms, they were cluster bombs dropped on the enemy.
The Luftwaffe fittet them with mixed fuze types, some would exploe on impact, some would go off in the air on a timer to blast the area with shrapnel and some had anti-handling devices to reach the ground and then work like mines, going off when disturbed.

So them working as they do is actually correct.
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Engineers believe... if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet."
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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Warhawks97 » 19 Feb 2018, 00:31

Kr0noZ wrote:
So them working as they do is actually correct.


just that they fall from the sky without any airplane involved :D

And they had little ammount of HE and used against soft targets. Would be nice if it would work like that in BK as well. It could damage vehicles but not killing them with just 3 hits of so. And tanks more or less resistent.

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Tiger1996 » 19 Feb 2018, 00:50

I think they don't just fall from the sky though, I mean there are airplanes involved.. but I guess it's intended to be some sort of big transporter planes which are flying at very high altitudes and don't appear on the map... Similar to the AB and Luft paratrooper planes, those paratroopers also don't just fall from the sky but surely there are airplanes delivering them, nonetheless.. they also don't appear on the map as they fly too high and therefore you can't shoot them down either :P The only difference is that you can hear some airplane sounds in the background when a parachute squad is dropped from the sky, but you can't hear the same sound when SD2 butterfly bombs are dropped for some reason.. perhaps because the Axis air planes used to drop these bombs are not very loud? Who cares though :D

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Jalis » 19 Feb 2018, 02:51

Tiger1996 wrote: but I guess it's intended to be some sort of big transporter planes which are flying at very high altitudes and don't appear on the map...

.. they also don't appear on the map as they fly too high and therefore you can't shoot them down either



German strategic air force was about as strong as the russian one ; that means about nothing. Main germans bombers were light HE 111 and even lighter JU 88.

Heavy bomber flying at high altitudes and so hard to intercept are typically armerican ; most known are B17 then B24. UK had the avro lancaster. For what I know, planes like the libertor were more famous for long range fight against U-Boot. FW 200 the only --about-- heavy bomber german built in sizable number was also use for maritime warfare as long range scout for uboot and sometime ship bomber.

Lufwaffe had also heavy transport in few number, but not suitable as Sd2 vector (Me 323)

Of course if you search well you will find a handfull of heavy german bomber, prototype or produced in very small number, but at the end nothing serious. JU 390 is the best exemple for peoples who like dreams, what if and uchronia.

Really the biggest thing Luftwaffe had at this time was ... Hermann Goering

For SD2, it can be compared to the V2. It targeted civils as terror weapon and wasnt planed for battlefield use. However, ingame, I feel SD2 use as tactical weapon less ludicrous than the V1, but it is just a personal feeling.

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Tiger1996 » 22 Feb 2018, 17:16

Back to this topic, I would like to add;
About the Churchill AVRE, I would like to see this unit improved in some way.. it currently sucks to be honest.

I was thinking of an idea, what if it would be more like a "mini-SturmTiger" instead of just nothing but a useless "heavy mortar" currently?

For example, range can be increased to 80 (Paks have 75 range, and Flak 88s have 85 range) so this would make it more in between.
The damage output can be increased dramatically, so by scoring a direct hit vs the Tiger1 for example.. the Tiger1 should lose about 70% of its health.
Panther would lose like 90% of its health or something, a King Tiger would lose 50% and same to the Elephant, JagdTiger would lose just 40% maybe.

Panzer4s, and Stugs should be killed immediately... Bunkers would be either destroyed outright with a single hit, or about 80% of their HP would be gone, and of course any emplacement would be dead. The price of the shell can be up to around 100 ammo, with a cool-down of 120 seconds...

Any thoughts?!

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 23 Feb 2018, 10:05

Tiger1996 wrote:Back to this topic, I would like to add;
About the Churchill AVRE, I would like to see this unit improved in some way.. it currently sucks to be honest.

I was thinking of an idea, what if it would be more like a "mini-SturmTiger" instead of just nothing but a useless "heavy mortar" currently?

For example, range can be increased to 80 (Paks have 75 range, and Flak 88s have 85 range) so this would make it more in between.
The damage output can be increased dramatically, so by scoring a direct hit vs the Tiger1 for example.. the Tiger1 should lose about 70% of its health.
Panther would lose like 90% of its health or something, a King Tiger would lose 50% and same to the Elephant, JagdTiger would lose just 40% maybe.

Panzer4s, and Stugs should be killed immediately... Bunkers would be either destroyed outright with a single hit, or about 80% of their HP would be gone, and of course any emplacement would be dead. The price of the shell can be up to around 100 ammo, with a cool-down of 120 seconds...

Any thoughts?!

no

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Frost » 23 Feb 2018, 16:41

Tiger1996 wrote:Back to this topic, I would like to add;
About the Churchill AVRE, I would like to see this unit improved in some way.. it currently sucks to be honest.

I was thinking of an idea, what if it would be more like a "mini-SturmTiger" instead of just nothing but a useless "heavy mortar" currently?

For example, range can be increased to 80 (Paks have 75 range, and Flak 88s have 85 range) so this would make it more in between.
The damage output can be increased dramatically, so by scoring a direct hit vs the Tiger1 for example.. the Tiger1 should lose about 70% of its health.
Panther would lose like 90% of its health or something, a King Tiger would lose 50% and same to the Elephant, JagdTiger would lose just 40% maybe.

Panzer4s, and Stugs should be killed immediately... Bunkers would be either destroyed outright with a single hit, or about 80% of their HP would be gone, and of course any emplacement would be dead. The price of the shell can be up to around 100 ammo, with a cool-down of 120 seconds...

Any thoughts?!



Actually i agree that would be a change to avre i cant say 1 hit to take down bunkers however i like the idea of reworking the effectiveness against tanks
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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Warhawks97 » 23 Feb 2018, 16:48

Frost wrote:

Actually i agree that would be a change to avre i cant say 1 hit to take down bunkers however i like the idea of reworking the effectiveness against tanks


What?! Its a bunker cracker which shall be more effective vs tanks now? I hope we wont end up as with fucking ST. Only being used against tanks instead defenses what it is actually supposed to do.....

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Tiger1996 » 23 Feb 2018, 17:10

Hmm, I think if it's something that "explodes" then it should be effective against everything it hits; Bunkers as well as tanks! Why not vs both really? ^^
And btw in my opinion the explosion radius of the SturmTiger is absolutely fine currently, and any less damage might result that it becomes useless.
Though, just the range could be reduced to 120 instead of 200 but in return no more view required to fire, in addition to higher MP price.. that's it!

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Warhawks97 » 23 Feb 2018, 17:23

When these units become better in killing tanks rather than defenses it just ends up that non of them will be used against any defenses anymore. The AVRE will stay behind AA tanks and firefly or whatever and kills all the tanks the firefly cant.

And the ST doesnt shoot emplacments bc its a waste actually. The walking stuka is prefered defense cracker as it comes earlier, cost less, has much shorter cooldown and so on. The ST will just be there to kill the one or the other tank. Thats the only thing you do with 6 mins of cooldown.


This is my concern. I am not saying they shouldnt be able to kill tanks, just we shouldnt set values in a way that it emphasizes players to use them against tanks rather than defenses.

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Tiger1996 » 07 Mar 2018, 14:55

Just one more thing I would like to add to this topic... The 95mm Cromwell really shouldn't have flank speed ability.

Also, I'm honestly not very sure if it's good to increase the Henschels air patrol price to 250 ammo or not.. despite that I've included this in the list.

When I created this topic in the first place though, none of the planned doctrinal reworkings were considered on any of the points.. but I think most of these points that are mentioned here on this topic would be still valid enough to apply anyways, regardless of any docs rework!

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Re: Comprehensive 5.1.3 Feedback

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 07 Mar 2018, 18:01

Warhawks97 wrote:When these units become better in killing tanks rather than defenses it just ends up that non of them will be used against any defenses anymore. The AVRE will stay behind AA tanks and firefly or whatever and kills all the tanks the firefly cant.

And the ST doesnt shoot emplacments bc its a waste actually. The walking stuka is prefered defense cracker as it comes earlier, cost less, has much shorter cooldown and so on. The ST will just be there to kill the one or the other tank. Thats the only thing you do with 6 mins of cooldown.


This is my concern. I am not saying they shouldnt be able to kill tanks, just we shouldnt set values in a way that it emphasizes players to use them against tanks rather than defenses.

I think Sturmtiger is at one level with a artillery churchill, since it has armor and ability to shoot from the closed positions. High accuracy, surprisingly dealing damage to tanks too and can be used in more numbers and more often.
CW right now has all efficient tools to counter all heavy axis tanks and people more talking about axis being strong against US, but somehow anyone don't mention the Brits. You can't just ask a nerf to Axis, when it only make worse game against CW, that is more at advantage position.


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