First large scale pvp experience of the latest versions (5.1.3)

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Tiger1996
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Re: First large scale pvp experience of the latest versions (5.1.3)

Postby Tiger1996 » 20 Dec 2017, 02:30

Warhawks97 wrote:Lol. I just falsified your argument that there was "Sherman reload speed cant go up. Two of them can already kill a tiger, Panzer IV cant do that".

This was your defense against reload speed increase for shermans.

And you dont consider 1.5 second as a big deal? Srsly?:D

Also its at least 1.5 second faster, it can also be 2.5 seconds faster. There are lightyears between them.

Man, what did you exactly falsify?? The numbers you provided only prove what I said earlier.. it's as I told you; Panzer4 reload a bit faster, but in return has a bit weaker chance to penetrate Pershing which is 26% but the 76mm on the other hand take a bit longer to reload, because they can penetrate Tiger1 a bit more reliably, which is certainly correct (34%) as your numbers show...
And so, the "slight reload time advantage of the 75mm L48 cannon" is obviously spared for the "slight better penetration vs heavier tanks" of the 76mm cannon on the other hand.. which is exactly what I told you before you bring any numbers:
Tiger1996 wrote:Also, there is a very significant reason that 76 Shermans should never reload more quickly... I have also pointed this out already, but looks like you have not payed much attention to it. Don't u know the fact that the 76 Sherman is much more capable of frontally penetrating a heavy tank such as the Tiger1 while the Pz4.H in comparison is much less capable of penetrating a heavy tank such as the Pershing on the other hand?? Although the Pz4.H basic price is higher than the 76 Sherman and also despite that the Pershing is cheaper than the Tiger1 tank?


So, if you consider 8% more penetration to be insignificant... Then I would also consider 1.5 second(s) faster reload to be equally insignificant as well.
Otherwise, I could also tell you that there are "light years" difference between 34% and 26% penetration chances.

Have a good day and best of luck...

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Jalis
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Re: First large scale pvp experience of the latest versions (5.1.3)

Postby Jalis » 20 Dec 2017, 05:17

Tiger1996 wrote:
So, if you consider 8% more penetration to be insignificant... Then I would also consider 1.5 second(s) faster reload to be equally insignificant as well.



8 per cent is only frontatlly. It is not insignifiant ; it is simply normal. Pershing add a better frontal armour, in return Tiger have better side and rear armour. Result draw. the 8 per cent difference is irrevelant.

It stay the reload problem who have no justification and offer nothing in return.


- stielgranate removed for the pak 38 ; perhaps the question would be what US 57 mm had in return ?


nota ; Transfert it to a halftrack ? hmmm I would be curious to know how crews will load it and how many time it would take. if they can. It was anyway more a gadget than something else with very short range.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: First large scale pvp experience of the latest versions (5.1.3)

Postby mofetagalactica » 20 Dec 2017, 09:19

camoed 50mm, killing pershings at max distance, pl0x. 50mm killing shermans e8' at max distance easily pl0p, camoed 57mm tickling pz4's at max distance pl0p, 57mm camoed with ap rounds tickling tigers, pl0x.

Just accept it tiger, pz4's are just better than shermans in pretty much everything. Its sad cause i always wanted to see main battle tanks from germany and usa battling with 50%/50% chances without making them super expensive to be able to see them at the field during almost all middle game to late game.

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Tiger1996
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Re: First large scale pvp experience of the latest versions (5.1.3)

Postby Tiger1996 » 20 Dec 2017, 09:48

Well then, cheaper Pz4 and cheaper Tigers.. better 76 Sherman and 57mm AT guns... If that's how you want it.

Tor
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Re: First large scale pvp experience of the latest versions (5.1.3)

Postby Tor » 20 Dec 2017, 10:47

Sherman 76mm useless, probably 2 years ago, i asking devs, why reload so long compared to axis tanks? they say 1 second is nothing serious.
If its nothing serious, just buff 76mm sherman from 7 to 6 sec.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: First large scale pvp experience of the latest versions (5.1.3)

Postby mofetagalactica » 20 Dec 2017, 10:47

Tiger1996 wrote:Well then, cheaper Pz4 and cheaper Tigers.. better 76 Sherman and 57mm AT guns... If that's how you want it.


57's can stay as they are i would like to see them as deadly like those 50mm honestly, but i would like something between pz4's and shermans (main battle tanks) being more close to each other, in stats and price. I dont know what this have to do with the tiger since its not a main tank but wathever you already know that destroying a tiger with 3 shermans assaulting frontally its impossible, they will only damage the tiger since it has a lot of hp, and they will make even lower damage if they use the ap rounds, while u can just oneshot them, and we are not even taking in account the accuracy of shermans, so chances drop even more. We already did this on bizory when you only had 1 tiger being able to stand againts 6 shermans 76' with command aura and vet.. lol.

Quick question, ¿does every AP round hability of allied tanks works the same? and ¿why the ap rounds of axis tanks has to be way better not having any drawback and costing the same?

¿There has been any post talking about these habilities and discussing about them? Cause if we arrive to something in common there we can kinda save us all the problems that we have with 76's and 57's damage/pen output lol.

Tor wrote:Sherman 76mm useless, probably 2 years ago, i asking devs, why reload so long compared to axis tanks? they say 1 second is nothing serious.
If its nothing serious, just buff 76mm sherman from 7 to 6 sec.


1 or 2 seconds can save your life 90% of the times.

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Redgaarden
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Re: First large scale pvp experience of the latest versions (5.1.3)

Postby Redgaarden » 20 Dec 2017, 20:14

Man, what did you exactly falsify?? The numbers you provided only prove what I said earlier.. it's as I told you; Panzer4 reload a bit faster, but in return has a bit weaker chance to penetrate Pershing which is 26% but the 76mm on the other hand take a bit longer to reload, because they can penetrate Tiger1 a bit more reliably, which is certainly correct (34%) as your numbers show...


You forgot to mention that american tanks suffer higher penetration loss compared to the axis equilivant. And I would be as bold to say that 90% of tank fights occur at max range while the other 10% occur beyond the max range because of buffs. So I wouldn't say that sherman has 34 and PZ4 has 26. I would say that the Sherman has about 17% chance to pen tigers (0.54 reductions?) while pz4 has 20% chance to pen pershing (0.76 reduction?)

The think that makes the sherman better against tigers compared to pz4 vs pershings is that when Shermans has a lower chance of getting one hit killed.
My stance on shermans. Is that the non doctrinal shermans are garbage and would be better off not existing.
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Redgaarden
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Re: First large scale pvp experience of the latest versions (5.1.3)

Postby Redgaarden » 20 Dec 2017, 20:25

Quick question, ¿does every AP round hability of allied tanks works the same? and ¿why the ap rounds of axis tanks has to be way better not having any drawback and costing the same?


Sherman 76, Sherman Easy Eight, and pershings all have different AP abilities.

Sherman 76: Changes the current gun into HVAP version which basically changes; Reduced dmg, 1.80 penetration modifier against tigers (0.34 regular shots) which will make it that you pen about what feels like 65% if your shots.

Easy Eight: Same as sherman 76, but 25 more dmg (5 extra dmg but multiplied by 5)

Pershing: 74% increased pen chance (0.30 x 0.57 x 1.74 =0.30. So about 30% chance to pen king tiger) and about -10% dmg

Do note this is just from what I kinda remember from memory and all stats are not 100% accurate.

So in my conclusion: 76mm AP is better vs Heavier tanks, but difference can't be felt against pz4 and you will most likely still lose the fight but 100 muni poorer. Pershing extra penetraion is neglible And I have never seen it being used effectivly.
The drawback of axis/Brits ap is that they dont really get any extra penetraion, but instead one hit kill most vehicles. so a pz4 using ap ammo on pershing will have about 1/4 of a chance to pen.


EDIT: Most stats dont feel like they are the same in-game as they appear in corsix. well other than M1 garand has higher pen chance against jagdtiger than a sherman 76 shooting it point blank range in the rear.
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Warhawks97
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Re: First large scale pvp experience of the latest versions (5.1.3)

Postby Warhawks97 » 21 Dec 2017, 00:18

Ok. Hold on guys

@Tiger: Again. Somewhere you argued that 76 cant reload faster bc it can kill tigers while tank IV cant. I proved the opposite. That tank IV can kill pershings just as good (for several reasons i dont want to mention again).

Tank IV´s are not the main counter to pershings, but they can kill it. Shermans are not a main counter to tigers (which instead are 17 pdr/arty/planes/off maps/inf/AT guns/etc). If they encounter, then either from far superior position or by accident. Nobody goes along and says: "Oh, tiger over there, i will build 3 76 shermans". This is garbage. So the 7 sec reload have nothing to do with this kind of "balance".

On top, as i already showed, how fair do you think is it in strategy games, to get veterancy levels just to meet the standard performences of your opponents. Everybody would avoid a fraktion which veterancy lvls are practically not rewarding but rather neccessary.

So the 7 sec reload has to do with encounters such as medium TD´s and axis medium tanks like stugs or Panzer IV in particular.

And here, mofeta is right when he says that this is one major reason for 90% of the defeats or, the other way arround, victories.

That a hetzer could for example kill 7 shermans on its own was related to the huge reload speed gap(s).


@Red: Yes, 76 shermans are garbage unless you go armor doc with huge cost drop and sandbags. And even then the efficiency is questionable.
I doubt anyone would like to see Tank IV J/H being such garbage in TH doc just bc they cant buy them for a cheaper cost.

Also, i have pen chance for max range. US 76 vs tiger is 0.41(TT)x0.54(Pen drop)x1.54 (AP shell boost).

What are the differences for special AP?

US in general boost more, but the guns have generally weaker standard penetration values. For the 76 the boost is 54%, for 90 mm its over 70%. However, they dont increase damage, the 90 mm loses some damage power instead.

Axis boost usually by 33% the pen and their damage by 25%. However, their guns usually have better standard pen values and lose far less over distance.

CW boosts pen more than axis but less than US. Damage increased also by 25% like axis. Their standard pen values are way better than those of US 76 in general. Their pen loss over distance is about that of the 90 mm.

Fun fact: 17 pdr that uses AP shells deals more damage than US 90 mm that uses AP rounds. Thats bc of of the damage increase for the 17pdr and the damage loss of the 90 mm. On top, CW pays just 50 amm to activate AP. So CW ap shells are the best and most worthy to upgrade.

Thus, the achilles outperforms the standard M36 by far when AP shells are being used. The ambush bonuses for the achilles are also much better than those of the M36. Let alone the range advntage (M36 is the only TD not getting range boost in ambush actually).

Thats enough info for AP shells. If you have more questions, just ask.

mofetagalactica wrote:
Tiger1996 wrote:Well then, cheaper Pz4 and cheaper Tigers.. better 76 Sherman and 57mm AT guns... If that's how you want it.


57's can stay as they are i would like to see them as deadly like those 50mm honestly, but i would like something between pz4's and shermans (main battle tanks) being more close to each other, in stats and price. I dont know what this have to do with the tiger since its not a main tank but wathever you already know...


cheaper Tank IV´s, well, i think i stated it often enough. Why not. More expensive shermans? Since 76 shermans are garabage atm, they would stay in terms of their current basic cost. Perhaps slightly more expensive. Same for normal M4. The e8 is quite costly for standard cost already.
Also less massive cost drop. Just like in inf doc where the cost drops are less drastic then in older versions, i think we could do something similiar for shermans, too. Like E8 basic cost will keep arround or slightly above 400 MP after cost reduction. Just general performence improvments (armor vs 50 mm guns, reload speed etc etc.).


And no, the 57 shouldnt be as good as 50 mm right now. Rather the other way arround. Otherwise the game would stall too quick when 57 becomes as good or better as the 50 mm currently is. The Tank IV´s would face the same issues shermans have: Not able to really overcome the slightes defense.
The 50 mm shouldnt be better, if at all, against shermans as the current 57 mm is against Tank IV´s.

Also i think, the armor difference between basic sherman and MA3 shouldnt be as huge as it is currently. The standard sherman is too much like a light armored vehicle. Barely better than a stuart or M10.


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