PE and WE at squads

[Warhawks97]

Hey. Ive noticed a major difference between them.

The PE at squad is quickly killed by shermans and often oneshoted and shred by HE shermans without doing a shot. The WE at squad in return rushed HE sherman, e8, m15 A1 and m20 frontally and losing almost no men and killing all units.

I am not sure why there is such a ridiculous difference but i assume that WE at squad got reduced by two men but not losing total HP. Instead the HP of the 2 reduced men got shared over the 4 remaining. The PE AT the other side got reduced by 2 men and the HP of those two got removed from the squad.

Thats my only explanation i have for such a huge performence difference between PE and WE at squad.

[V13dweller]

The PE one also lacks one Panzerschreck, unless you play PE and choose TH.

[Warhawks97]

The PE one also lacks one Panzerschreck, unless you play PE and choose TH.

my point is not to talk about the number of AT. I simply talk about the durability.

But due to this much better durability, two schrecks and this shitty " magic tread breaker you have to pay for" with mega range while the PE has realistic Panzerfaust the WE is by far more fearfull as AT squad in may opinion. Flame nades for SE is quite cool though.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

True, PE at team dies much faster than Usa or We one. They had less hp due to their number (6-7), but quanity of soldiers was reduced without buffing their hp.

[Warhawks97]

True, PE at team dies much faster than Usa or We one. They had less hp due to their number (6-7), but quanity of soldiers was reduced without buffing their hp.

and afaik that was the actual intention by xali. He wanted to reduce this hit and run attacks by reducing their number. Thing is that the total HP for US and WE got not reduced while the cost dropped from 450 down to 360. That actually means -if my assumption is correct- that the squad size and cost reduction without decreased HP for US and WE made it even easier to rush (as replacment cost 100 mp less).

Maybe Wolf can do some adjustments.

[Wake]

Well someone once made this comparison and I agree with it.

Wehrmacht AT Squad is stronger, with 2 panzershrecks and tread breaker ability, but has absolutely no anti-infantry capability and will die to engineers if they are at close range.

PE AT Squad is a blend between AT and anti-infantry because they get just 1 panzershreck but that also means there are still 3 rifles in the squad. They also get grenades which can be very deadly as most players do not expect AT squads to use grenades. For SE doc, they also get incendiary grenades which are extremely deadly to infantry, as well as booby traps. They also get a panzerfaust which arguably makes them deadlier against super heavy tanks because the panzerfaust never bounces off of enemy tanks, while a panzershreck sometimes does bounce off of Jumbos and pershings. For TH doc, with upgrades they get another panzershreck and can throw 2 AT grenades.

They basically said the Wehrmacht AT squad was a true AT squad while the PE AT Squad was like a panzergrenadier squad that picked up a panzershreck and lost 2 men.

[V13dweller]

The PE AT squad has 6 men, one with the launcher, and 5 with rifles.

[MarKr]

The PE AT squad has 6 men, one with the launcher, and 5 with rifles.

You haven't applied several patches so you might have missed that PE AT squad is only 4 men squad and the +1 man upgrade doesn't apply to them anymore.

However you are correct about the HP. In WE AT squad each man has 80HP, while in PE AT squad each has 65 HP. I haven't taken any thorough look into it but so far that seems to be the only difference (appart from weapon loadout).

[Warhawks97]

The PE AT squad has 6 men, one with the launcher, and 5 with rifles.

You haven't applied several patches so you might have missed that PE AT squad is only 4 men squad and the +1 man upgrade doesn't apply to them anymore.

However you are correct about the HP. In WE AT squad each man has 80HP, while in PE AT squad each has 65 HP. I haven't taken any thorough look into it but so far that seems to be the only difference (appart from weapon loadout).

alright... can it be adjusted? Basically i prefer less frontal rush (means rather less hp) on tanks with 4 men but i let the devs make the decision.

Just for fun... how much HP have grens per men and how much Panzergrens. Maybe its a general difference between PE and WE which maybe is intended. If not i would make also AT squads on same level regarding HP.

@wake: we have tread breaker topic and we all voted to removal of that stupid ability (from all units) and crits are made by chance.

[alexandertheaverage]

Just for fun... how much HP have grens per men and how much Panzergrens. Maybe its a general difference between PE and WE which maybe is intended. If not i would make also AT squads on same level regarding HP.

Here's how i've laid it out:

Squad: HP value - mp Cost

WE:

Volksgrenadier squad: 60hp -265mp
Grenadier squad: ------- 80hp -400mp
Stormtrooper squad: -- 90hp -450mp

PE:

PanzerGrenadier squad: 65hp -360mp
PzGr assault squad: ----- 75hp -450mp
Fallschirmjäger squad: -- 80hp -550mp

hm... maybe that's why PE infantry feels... 'off.'

...
However you are correct about the HP. In WE AT squad each man has 80HP, while in PE AT squad each has 65 HP. I haven't taken any thorough look into it but so far that seems to be the only difference (appart from weapon loadout).

I think the best move would be to level out the HP of both units and reduce the cost of the PE squad or raise the cost of the WE squad slightly due to the (PE) lack of a second AT weapon...

edit: but that's just my opinion. I suppose we'll have to wait and see what the devs decide to do.

[V13dweller]

Always lower the health, AT squads are annoying as hell, they charge into a pack of tanks, pick one off, run back and repeat until all tanks are gone.

Prize for strategy here.

Tank Coaxial guns are the pinnacle of rubbish.

[Warhawks97]

Always lower the health, AT squads are annoying as hell, they charge into a pack of tanks, pick one off, run back and repeat until all tanks are gone.

Prize for strategy here.

Tank Coaxial guns are the pinnacle of rubbish.

yeah. thats true. it just shouldnt be so easy rushing tanks frontally with inf. PE AT squads sometimes gonna die when rushing a HE sherman up front. US as well if axis tank has top turret gunner. But WE at squads really feels off. They also seem to be by far more resistant against suppression. Ive been using suppressing fire (sometimes with rifles and sherman or two shermans) but they had always been able to make their shot before being pinned, ALWAYS. Also those guys hunting vehicles and tanks accross the map untill sprint is over. You guys should see how many miles tanks and vehicles must retreat just because 4 immortals with schrecks want to have some FUN. The craziest thing i saw was HE sherman, vet e8 (all sandbags), M20 scout vehicle and M15A1 against 4 men. Result was that 3 of the at squad died but by using the tread breaker able to kill booth shermans and the m20. So 3 vehicles/tanks lost for 3 killed guys. I may have the replay but not sure.



The coaxial tank and vehicle mgs are ridiculous.


It would be very great if something would be done with those "rushing tanks simply frontally with inf regardless of x-thousands MGs shooting them". Just saying sprint with heavy weapons as if they are small submachine guns, range of hendheld AT and their accuracy on longer distances, coaxial MG´s, tread breaker ability "aka turning hendheld AT into long range quick fire Weapon with crazy unrealistic behaviour"



About the HP difference between WE and PE inf: Consider that they have different TT´s. PE inf are not "infantry" they are "soldier". Inf types "Soldiers" have lower incoming accuracy and received damage than Inf tpye "inf".

Since WE grens get these boosts in terror and def doc and since they can have Stg´s (in all docs) it really seems that they are superior to PE assault Grens. Esspecially the fact that WE have schrecks and PE has not makes them more appealing. But at the other hand PE assault Grens have later improved repairs and also -25% suppression and 25% faster vet step. Booth have cons and pros But WE inf seems to be better for their cost which does not mean that PE is so bad.

[alexandertheaverage]

yeah, the mp costs do seem a little imbalanced at the moment: even though Panzer Assault Grens have that AT grenade ability, it's not much compared to a panzerschreck.

maybe a panzerfaust ability (as the logical next step up from the regular Panzer Grens' AT grenade) would be better?

[Warhawks97]

yeah, the mp costs do seem a little imbalanced at the moment: even though Panzer Assault Grens have that AT grenade ability, it's not much compared to a panzerschreck.

maybe a panzerfaust ability (as the logical next step up from the regular Panzer Grens' AT grenade) would be better?

in old version they had Panzerfaust upgrade instead lmg42.



Since i think that there are a way too many Panzerschrecks as Panzerfausts which was main inf anti tank weapon i once requested to reduce number of schrecks (also zooks) to dedicated AT squads and elite squads. PE and WE would booth have global Panzerfaust upgrades that would unlock Panzerfaust ability for all PE Panzergrens and All WE Grens (including the AT squads maybe or they would have them by default). Schrecks would then be only in hands of luftwaffe inf and stormtooper.

As little compensation US inf and air doc would have rifle grenades as global ability for their Rifle squads. The Rangers limited to inf doc as elite unit and kind of stormtooper counterpart with bazookas. Also airborne rangers would have them. The US AT squads would have sticky bombs.

(Tread breaker abilities removed form WE and US).

[alexandertheaverage]

in old version they had Panzerfaust upgrade instead lmg42.

Since i think that there are a way too many Panzerschrecks as Panzerfausts which was main inf anti tank weapon i once requested to reduce number of schrecks (also zooks) to dedicated AT squads and elite squads. PE and WE would booth have global Panzerfaust upgrades that would unlock Panzerfaust ability for all PE Panzergrens and All WE Grens (including the AT squads maybe or they would have them by default). Schrecks would then be only in hands of luftwaffe inf and stormtooper.

As little compensation US inf and air doc would have rifle grenades as global ability for their Rifle squads. The Rangers limited to inf doc as elite unit and kind of stormtooper counterpart with bazookas. Also airborne rangers would have them. The US AT squads would have sticky bombs.

(Tread breaker abilities removed form WE and US).

Those adjustments would be great, especially getting rid of that awful tread-breaker ability. One issue however would be the lack of a squad that could deal with both vehicle and infantry threats for US armor doc, but I suppose that'd be less of a problem for Armor because of its somewhat more heavily armed/armored tanks and TDs...

Speaking of TDs, why don't all US docs get the hellcat? it seems that without it they have no reliable tank destroyer, since the wolverine is nearly useless. I do hope the devs do something about that.

But I digress;

having Axis factions pay for each use of the panzerfaust (the ability costs 35 ammo i believe?) for regular (non-AT, non-elite) troops to replace panzerschreck upgrades might even help introduce a better balance to the mid game. It would also have the added benefit of being more historically plausible; the panzerfaust was used much more commonly than the schreck, as it was cheaper, weighed less, and was simpler to use. So all-in-all, it sounds like an excellent proposal. Did you get any feedback on why the idea wasn't liked when you suggested it?

[Warhawks97]

in old version they had Panzerfaust upgrade instead lmg42.

Since i think that there are a way too many Panzerschrecks as Panzerfausts which was main inf anti tank weapon i once requested to reduce number of schrecks (also zooks) to dedicated AT squads and elite squads. PE and WE would booth have global Panzerfaust upgrades that would unlock Panzerfaust ability for all PE Panzergrens and All WE Grens (including the AT squads maybe or they would have them by default). Schrecks would then be only in hands of luftwaffe inf and stormtooper.

As little compensation US inf and air doc would have rifle grenades as global ability for their Rifle squads. The Rangers limited to inf doc as elite unit and kind of stormtooper counterpart with bazookas. Also airborne rangers would have them. The US AT squads would have sticky bombs.

(Tread breaker abilities removed form WE and US).

Those adjustments would be great, especially getting rid of that awful tread-breaker ability. One issue however would be the lack of a squad that could deal with both vehicle and infantry threats for US armor doc, but I suppose that'd be less of a problem for Armor because of its somewhat more heavily armed/armored tanks and TDs...

Speaking of TDs, why don't all US docs get the hellcat? it seems that without it they have no reliable tank destroyer, since the wolverine is nearly useless. I do hope the devs do something about that.

But I digress;

having Axis factions pay for each use of the panzerfaust (the ability costs 35 ammo i believe?) for regular (non-AT, non-elite) troops to replace panzerschreck upgrades might even help introduce a better balance to the mid game. It would also have the added benefit of being more historically plausible; the panzerfaust was used much more commonly than the schreck, as it was cheaper, weighed less, and was simpler to use. So all-in-all, it sounds like an excellent proposal. Did you get any feedback on why the idea wasn't liked when you suggested it?

it was liked by most. Just a few others and the devs were against it. Thing was/is that tanks getting often too easily frontally rushed and practically every squad has schrecks (except maybe the 2 pe gren squads). There were too many and we made some suggestions how to change it. Reduce number of schrecks and zooks maybe or squads with heavy weapons like hendeld AT would have penalties in movment/sprint speed and duration in order that not every squad get equiped with them. Often vehicles and tanks get killed more or less "btw". Also suggested was to reduce range of them and also long/mid range accuracy reduced and in return stuff like higher rof when fired from ambush. Simply those schrecks and zooks shouldnt be in every single inf squad in late game.

[V13dweller]

Why not just buff the Hull/Coax MG's to a higher standard, like give them the accuracy of Infantry Carried MG's.

[alexandertheaverage]

Why not just buff the Hull/Coax MG's to a higher standard, like give them the accuracy of Infantry Carried MG's.

Perhaps accuracy/damage of Coaxial MGs should be based on range - more accurate and deadly at schreck range than further away. This, in combination with a general switch to panzerfaust ability for regular Axis troops (non-elite, non-AT) would balance out nicely.

And I almost forgot - giving US troops the "fire bazooka" ability (a la CQB Squad) would be a good Allied equivalent.

The most important factor is that these abilities are paid for with each use, making it more of a stop-gap solution in a pinch rather than a permanent solution against tanks.

Furthermore, I think this would totally revolutionize the balance of Allied/Axis infantry vs enemy tanks, where the axis have normally always had the advantage.

[Warhawks97]

Why not just buff the Hull/Coax MG's to a higher standard, like give them the accuracy of Infantry Carried MG's.

Perhaps accuracy/damage of Coaxial MGs should be based on range - more accurate and deadly at schreck range than further away. This, in combination with a general switch to panzerfaust ability for regular Axis troops (non-elite, non-AT) would balance out nicely.

And I almost forgot - giving US troops the "fire bazooka" ability (a la CQB Squad) would be a good Allied equivalent.

The most important factor is that these abilities are paid for with each use, making it more of a stop-gap solution in a pinch rather than a permanent solution against tanks.

Furthermore, I think this would totally revolutionize the balance of Allied/Axis infantry vs enemy tanks, where the axis have normally always had the advantage.

Idk if we need a panzerfaust equivalent for US troops. Allied should have superior number of tanks and their main AT weapons on field should be the M10`s and hellcats. Due to lack of usefullness of many allied tanks in non specilized armor docs they dont build tanks at all and thus armor doc remains as only one that effecively fields tanks but facing then number of heavy tanks coming from every axis doc as they are good allrounder and inf is pretty helpless with bazooaks in late game. Means this ability wouldnt balance out anything and allied should be able to outmaneuver enemie tanks with own tanks. But several factors like fuel upkeep issues, unreliability of most tanks and their guns and crazy upgrades to not allow this.



About coaxial weapon damage (and mgs at all maybe): If damaged would be raised up then inf would get shred like nothing even when having perfect green cover and being suppressed. It would me like the MG42 HMG is currently: No Cover protects the soldier against the "cover ignoring bullets" and tactical gameplay almost impossible. Increase damage of coaxial: yes but more importantly some suppression. So inf could stay well in cover and suppressed and thus allowing other units to attack/flank. Also the tank would take the area under fire but at the same time the soldiers could wait there untill tank comes closer. That means not that cover+suppression would make units immun to any bullet damage. But reduced range of Hendheld AT would be a must otherwise the AT soldiers could stay endless long under Tank MG fire by shooting one deadly round after the other to the tank. HE rounds would be good finisher to kill inf that are suppressed in such cover but also friendly inf with nades and MPi´s. Frontal rushes on Tanks on open field should be a suicide. Means MG coaxial damage must go up but yellow cover with suppression could also provide better cover bonuses.

[Wake]

Warhawks highlights a problem right now, in that almost 100% of US anti-tank players use the bazooka squad as their only AT. Unless a player goes armor doctrine, hellcats and M10's are rarely seen on the field, and even if they are armor, a 76 Jumbo or easy eight are honestly just as good but with more health.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Hellcats are rarely seen on the field? E8 is better? What?? Hellcat can 1 shot any axis tank from ambush ( just let them drive close to you and use AP). Though many people underate hellcats power, dont know why actually, i use it always when playing Armor doc, and its crazy effective for its cost. ( yesterday had a game vs tiger1996 and kwok, 1 hellcat killed 3 pz4, Panther G, 2 mortar trucks, not bad for 360 mp 40 fuel unit ). Moreover, if you will overrepair it, than hellcat can survive 1 tiger/panther shot, it means that tiger which will run on ambush will be in most cases dead, 2 hellcats shots from close distance are enough for any big kitty. But i have no idea why this tank have 5(!) fuel upkeep, 2 hellcats usually eat half of your fuel income.

P.S. I think airborn really need Hellcat, since airstrikes are not hard to prevent + significant recoiless nerf. Very hard to deal with tanks as airborn.

[Warhawks97]

Hellcats are rarely seen on the field? E8 is better? What?? Hellcat can 1 shot any axis tank from ambush ( just let them drive close to you and use AP). Though many people underate hellcats power, dont know why actually, i use it always when playing Armor doc, and its crazy effective for its cost. ( yesterday had a game vs tiger1996 and kwok, 1 hellcat killed 3 pz4, Panther G, 2 mortar trucks, not bad for 360 mp 40 fuel unit ). Moreover, if you will overrepair it, than hellcat can survive 1 tiger/panther shot, it means that tiger which will run on ambush will be in most cases dead, 2 hellcats shots from close distance are enough for any big kitty. But i have no idea why this tank have 5(!) fuel upkeep, 2 hellcats usually eat half of your fuel income.

P.S. I think airborn really need Hellcat, since airstrikes are not hard to prevent + significant recoiless nerf. Very hard to deal with tanks as airborn.

He was talking about non armor doc. And e8 are seldomly seen for sure. Also i know that hellcat can be effective but it doesnt change the fact that US often stays with one or two tanks out there against a greater number of Tank IV´s and even Tigers. I´ve actually havent seen it in a very long time that the supposed quantity US faction win beats axis armor with superior number of own armor. US armor wins usually only due to jumbo and Hellcat. And non armor players do never really use any kind of armor as US. Thats the point here. I´ve watched your game against Tiger1996 at vimoutiers and you killed a lot with hellcat but you simply lost as armor doc against a great number of Tigers although those got wasted stupidly. You - and also others who wants to win with amercian armor- just cant really win by masses. Only good micro helps and nice ambushes.

And if you talk about how effective the hellcat with AP ammo is i just want to remind you that you have and had games with the PE sdkfz.234/4 (the one with 75 mm pak) that did oneshot Jumbo, e8 sandbaged and Jumbo in a row in 1 vs 3 without any tank commander or AP ammo unlike you do it with Hellcats. And axis tankbsuters are just as effective (if not more) as US one. Those dont even need to move or using AP ammo and can knockout any number of allied tanks without getting hit or penetrated even.

[alexandertheaverage]

doublepost

edit - and yes, that 'puma upgrade' (SdKfz 234/4) can be devastating in the right hands. hellcat doesn't even come close; after it loses its camouflage it's pretty much dead if it doesn't flee the scene. even so - i think it should be given to infantry and airborne doctrine players because the wolverine is even worse.

[Warhawks97]

Wolf is going to change inf type of WE AT squads and i am curious now. Can anyone tell me which unit type US/WE/PE/CW AT sqauds have and how much HP. We are going to have 4 different AT sqauds and each probably with different HP and infantry type which makes things for future more complicate. Would be nice to know who has what and why.

[Patrymir]

All the squads are badly made to begin with.

An Anti-tank team would usually consist of 2 stealthy infantrymen who would use cover, camouflage and terrain to get very close to the enemy vehicle with a bazooka or panzerschreck. The loader would normally not use any weapons, just loaded the AT weapon and the shooter would fire.

Both men needed to get very close to their target.

How to do this?

Simple:

1) You make a 2 man scout team for both U.S. and German troops.

2) You create packages (upgrades) like an Anti Tank package - 1 bazooka or panzerschreck and 1 loader with no weapon.

3) Scouts have stealth (camouflage) by default, so they can sneak up to the target undetected.

That way you don't have a bunch of fully exposed idiots trying to make a frontal attack on a tank and you keep the game realistic.

Furthermore from there you can make 2 more packages like an MG 42 fire team with a gunner and assistant/spotter, plus sniper team ( http://ww2db.com/images/weapon_mauser98k_4.jpg http://www.militaryeducation.org/wp-con ... chenko.jpg ).