PE and WE at squads

[PiotrW]

Just like Wake pointed it out above, dedicated AT squads have some other abilities too. But... it's almost never used.
We could watch all those "epic replays" over and over again, and there is one - ONLY ONE tactic: build 2 AT squads - sprint directly at enemy - HALT (instantly fire 4 shreck's) - retreat - repeat.
Maybe AT's should act like MG squad ? There is no sprint ability for MG.
Give them "assault" for 50 ammo instead. Once activated, unit become revealed (if ambushed) and shall advance at enemy unit/emplacement to attack it with slight chance of critical hit/tread breake ??

[Warhawks97]

i dont know if it is neccessary to reduce them to two men even when historically correct. But snipers would have an easy job with them. What is so annyoing that they are mainly used for frontal rushes against Tanks. Then the accuracy/range is just crazy and this stupid tread breaker ability.... Just this.... You just see those 4 men schreck squads running out of the fog of war and damaging/killing tanks and usually killing every vehicle. Whenever they occure and doesnt matter what units shooting them they usually do their stupid shot with great accuracy and dealing large damage to pretty much everything. Due to that vehicles are also not really usefull in later steps of the game..... every inf just rushes them away and retreating with vehicles whenever you see a guy with a schreck requires even more micro and when you have like a Mortar HT, M20 and Greyhound you actually just decide which unit you "offer" them and which you want to keep alive. Panzerschreck rushes are currently responsible for almost 90% of all destroyed tanks. Too bad that we cant have kind of BK statistic that counts the destroyed tanks and the used weapon. I guess the result would be that allied do most tank kills with 17 pounders Paks/Tanks and Hellcats, then arty and finally zooks/rl. On axis side i would guess that schreck is easily top axis tank killer.

[Wake]

How come Bazookas miss all the time while PE Panzershrecks are very accurate, and Wehrmacht Panzershrecks never miss?

[Warhawks97]

Thing is that the schrecks seem to ignore smoke screens while bazookas are unable to hit the largest tank right in front of them. Even 2 of 6 zooks with M6a3c failed to hit the damn large elephant which damaged engine from close/mid range. And then 4 or 5 fired zooks against an nashorn and only one scored a hit but causing not even a crit damage. Its just crazy. Also a schreck that clearly failed to hit my tank caused engine destroyed by using tread breaker ability but two zooks from very close range using tread breaker ability and which booth penetrated the TH IV/A of def doc caused only engine damaged, the second no crit at all.

[Patrymir]

i dont know if it is neccessary to reduce them to two men even when historically correct. But snipers would have an easy job with them. What is so annyoing that they are mainly used for frontal rushes against Tanks. Then the accuracy/range is just crazy and this stupid tread breaker ability.

Having 2 man teams also means these would be far less expensive. It might not be necessary, but history accurate and at the same time having that tactical flexibility.

Q: Can snipers quickly take these down?

A: Yes and No. Yes if these men will be not using stealth. The ability you are looking for is named "Evasive Action". You can find it to be on the Aufklarer's or Snipers. It means that the men are undetectable as long as they don't attack. You can get them in close, attack and they will hide back some time after the attack. Their detection depends also on the rage of each unit's personal stealth detection rating. It is located in the ebps of every unit under sight_ext -> detect_camouflage. Depending on the number you can lower or increase the range of detection for every single unit. In the case of tanks this rating would be extremely low - unless you have a gunner on top.

It should be also noted that the the bazooka itself has an effective range of about 200 to 300 meters and can penetrate up to 100mm of steel at a 90 degree angle. This means the men should be still at a rather safe distance if the sniper is engaging other infantry units. These launchers where also extremely accurate. Misses occurred very rarely. Training troops would reach 95%+ accuracy, but in combat, during heavy fighting it took a very brave man to shoot it under fire. Still even in those cases the warhead traveled too quickly for any vehicle to avoid it. Especially under 300 meters, but with the M9 models that would replace the M1A1's things got even better for the AT teams. Flatter trajectory due to the longer tube and better mechanism allowed for much smoother operation, thus you could fire the M9 much quicker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRPsxgOozqk

This video shows the older M1A1 model.

The reload time was between 6 to 9 seconds depending on the teams experience.

[Warhawks97]

i dont know if it is neccessary to reduce them to two men even when historically correct. But snipers would have an easy job with them. What is so annyoing that they are mainly used for frontal rushes against Tanks. Then the accuracy/range is just crazy and this stupid tread breaker ability.

Having 2 man teams also means these would be far less expensive. It might not be necessary, but history accurate and at the same time having that tactical flexibility.

Q: Can snipers quickly take these down?

A: Yes and No. Yes if these men will be not using stealth. The ability you are looking for is named "Evasive Action". You can find it to be on the Aufklarer's or Snipers. It means that the men are undetectable as long as they don't attack. You can get them in close, attack and they will hide back some time after the attack. Their detection depends also on the rage of each unit's personal stealth detection rating. It is located in the ebps of every unit under sight_ext -> detect_camouflage. Depending on the number you can lower or increase the range of detection for every single unit. In the case of tanks this rating would be extremely low - unless you have a gunner on top.

It should be also noted that the the bazooka itself has an effective range of about 200 to 300 meters and can penetrate up to 100mm of steel at a 90 degree angle. This means the men should be still at a rather safe distance if the sniper is engaging other infantry units. These launchers where also extremely accurate. Misses occurred very rarely. Training troops would reach 95%+ accuracy, but in combat, during heavy fighting it took a very brave man to shoot it under fire. Still even in those cases the warhead traveled too quickly for any vehicle to avoid it. Especially under 300 meters, but with the M9 models that would replace the M1A1's things got even better for the AT teams. Flatter trajectory due to the longer tube and better mechanism allowed for much smoother operation, thus you could fire the M9 much quicker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRPsxgOozqk

This video shows the older M1A1 model.

The reload time was between 6 to 9 seconds depending on the teams experience.

well... so in future we crouch with many cheap reccons towards the tanks and hit them deadly. How to detect them then? everytime they would be detected by a vehicle this vehicle would be dead even when it is a special reccon hunter like the schwimmwagens, M20 etc...

About range etc.... we had that debatte and from realistic and historcial point of view those guys had a suicide job. They couldnt fire the weapon when llaying on the ground and they had to stay up. absolut max range was maybe 300 meter but accuracy in combat at 100 meter was about 3%. So they actually shot from a very well ambushed position if possible not from flat terrain.

[Patrymir]

well... so in future we crouch with many cheap reccons towards the tanks and hit them deadly. How to detect them then? everytime they would be detected by a vehicle this vehicle would be dead even when it is a special reccon hunter like the schwimmwagens, M20 etc...

About range etc.... we had that debatte and from realistic and historcial point of view those guys had a suicide job. They couldnt fire the weapon when llaying on the ground and they had to stay up. absolut max range was maybe 300 meter but accuracy in combat at 100 meter was about 3%. So they actually shot from a very well ambushed position if possible not from flat terrain.

There are several options like making scouts (Aufklarers) specifically made for recon and detection at long ranges. Also while a bazookas might penetrate 100mm of steel their damage drops the longer the range of engagement is. The perfect one would be 100-200m. At max range penetration drops due to lower velocity. This means you can not destroy a Panther Ausf G at 120m or longer ranges since the effective armor is about 100mm and the bazooka has a penetration of around 90mm at 300 meters. To destroy it you'd have to either flank it or do a frontal attack at 110m.

Alternatively the stealth detection range could always be adjusted. If a need would arise you could give all armored vehicles and troops stealth detection ranges between 0 and 200 meters (represented by some other numerical value in game) and specialized units around 0-400.

I'm also unsure who concluded that discussion in such a way. It's all a bunch of nonsense. While it is true it's hard to shoot a bazooka from a prone position it is not impossible depending on the terrain. Most teams would just dig a hole in the ground and wait for a tank to get in the range of 200m. Accuracy was very high like during training (95%+), but the people who would actually pop up and shoot where not very common. It took nerves of steel to do that under fire. Tanks had a psychological effect, but the people brave enough to take them down would get their target most of the time.

Getting close to a tank IS a suicide job IF the tank is supported by infantry. Anti tank teams did not carry any rifles, carbines or SMG's - so while they could avoid tank fire to some degree in their fox holes they would get shot to peaces once a trooper would close in on them. They only had pistols for self defense in CQB's. A single infantryman with an SMG would take them out in seconds.

[Warhawks97]

The distance played no role as they are hollow charge rounds. Means penetration is not depending on the speed. Axis tanks also had HL (Hohlladungsgeschosse) available but those penetrated always 90 mm.... it made sense for stubby tanks but all other guns had better penetrations already.

I was trying to find the link of the military side.... the guys with bazookas had also a nickname which i forgot but it had something to do with suicide mission..... Dig in wand wait was the best way for sure but whenever it was neccessary to make a clear shot on a tank during an offense (running to the tank) it was very dangerous. Also they got usually not used against targets beyond 100 meters. At 100 meters accuracy in combat was about 3% (higher in training).

The Germans created for that reason the rocket launcher you can see on coh2. It was a kind of panzerschreck on a carriage to make that weapon more usefull at distances up to 200-300 meters.

The Panzerfaust 30 had range of 30 btw. The 60 had 60 meters and the 100 simply 100 meters max range which was very much already. An after WW2 panzerfaust looking similiar as the famous russian RPG (just better gunsight etc) had a effective range of 375 meters (i had the original Bundeswehr manual of that weapon. The Heaviest semi giuded 500 meters).


The "Lexkion der Wehrmacht" notes the Panzerbüchse 54 with 150 meter range, others as effective range. So it was usual to wait as long as possible before shooting at the tank (30-60 meter).


Anyway. Thing is that we actually dont need even more invisble soldiers draging over the map and laying on the prone. We have snipers, reccons and special forces (but which lose the ability when receiving schrecks). So the game would turn into a game full with guys doing "ecasive maneuvers" and appearing in this case right in front of a tank or vehicle and killing it and the enemie would only build reccons to avoid exactly that.


Also i have read the Panzerschreck manual of the Wehrmacht and there was no sentence about sneaking towards enemie tanks and killing them. They mostly waited in towns or next to streets and attacking passing tanks from the flanks with a group of schreck squads. So schrecks and zooks would actually be pure defesnive ambush weapons and the players would prepare ambushes before the enemie would come.

I dont want it exactly like this but players should at least wait "for the best moment" to jump out of cover to kill a Tank.


The latest patch btw helped that WE at squads arent so immortal anymore and frontal attacks became dangerous for them which is good.

[Wake]

While we're on this, could we fix the issue with panzerfausts NEVER bouncing off of any tanks? They are a GUARANTEED penetration, often dealing half damage to most tanks, be it super pershings or churchill aces.

[Patrymir]

I am going to end this once and for all with WWII footage showing bazookas used in prone positions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW9zB8lrFSs

Panzerschreck - not in a city.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ8-9iy_YYs

I want to clarify once and for all that these weapons where extremely effective. I have consulted many specialist regarding this 3% myth. They have stated one very important thing:

"If a weapon was ineffective in combat, reaching only 3% accuracy there would be no military at that time period which would allow any manufacturing facility the production of a near useless peace of military hardware."

According to this team of historical WWII experts the accuracy would often reach over 80% in combat conditions.

I would refrain from using historically inaccurate data in the future.

Also - here's Weaponology on Bazooka's:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX-WyWeetAg

[Warhawks97]

i did say when used against targets above 100 meters (esspecially when those are moving). I did not say always 3%. In the vids the distance was also very low.


Thing simply is that i wouldnt think its a good idea to add 2 men squads which are able to sneak towards a tank over the entire map. You would only see them sneaking arround and building special "reccon finding" vehicles like jeeps etc wouldnt make sense as those would get killed as soon as they spot them. Two men squads with one AT weapon ad ambush ability would be ok for me but not using evasive maneuvers crawling hidden over the entire map with deadly efficency.


In BK the schrecks and zooks have almost as much range as tanks with HE rounds and then with pretty deadly accuracy. Nobody ever blaimed them as ineffective (30% of allied tank losses in normandy or france were regarded to schrecks and panzerfausts).

Its just the way of use in BK of such weapons. Every squad has one in late game, nobody has an aim time, the range slightly less as those tanks with HE rounds, the accuracy on such ranges etc although they would actually be almost only used from ambushes from either dedicated AT squads or used by some special forces. That was my point. You just got me a bit wrong.


And about use out of houses: That was not possible usually due to the fire beam streaming out of the weapons. Houses could catch fire or the fire beam would hit a wall inside a house and the entire room including the gunner would burn. The piat had a big advantage here.

[Armacalic]

Even CoH 2 references the fact that using large tubes with backblast in small, closed spaces was dangerous.

"I KNOW it's technically impossible to shoot a Panzerschreck from an enclosed position. Don't read the fucking manual next time, and you won't care so much!"

In cities, grenades or flamethrowers would be safer to use than a Panzerschreck when in a building.

[Patrymir]

Sorry for being away so long. My neighbors are having their house renovated and the lack of sleep has been getting to me.

First things firs:

Was the use of rocket launchers dangerous inside buildings?

Yes.

But they did it anyway.

-------

Second:

Researched some penetration data:

http://www.100thww2.org/support/776tankhits.html

Looks like the effectiveness on frontal armor of a panther was 0. You have all penetrations in the article.

Problem:

It could have been one of the more early production models.

Note:

The addition of spaced armor made the M1's penetration drop severely. It is virtually impossible to destroy most tanks when they have spaced armor on the front and sides.
This means that a shot in the engine is the only effective way to destroy it.

Problem 2:

Panthers seems to have some kind of spaced armor added in some models and their Ersatz M10 variation:

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/ ... 46d9lx.jpg (side skirts)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/N ... nzer_V.jpg (crews adding additional armor made out of tracks)

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp23 ... CF6700.jpg (Ersatz M10)

The armor added on all of those was actually spaced. Even the tank tracks could be considered as spaced and effective against the Bazooka. Can I confirm this with certainty? Nope and that's the problem.

In any case.

Would the 2 man anti tank teams with stealth be overly effective vs tanks?

With proper penetration tables? No. Without proper tables. YES!

Since a Panzer with spaced armor would be virtually invulnerable to such a small rocket projectile.

A tank like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... zer_IV.jpg

or

http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/imag ... skirts.jpg

Won't go down easily.

The only weak spot becomes the back of the tank and that means stealth is essential.
This mean effectiveness drops drastically with upgrades.

Same with sandbags on shermans.

https://shermon.files.wordpress.com/201 ... ndbags.jpg

You got the sandbags, the rocket detonates on the bags and the core and hot plasma doesn't get through.

As long as there is something the rocket projectile hits between it and the main armor it's not gonna be effective.

[Warhawks97]

I know that. Its known since a long time and all late model german tanks used those skirts. They had been like 5 mm thick and didnt help to improve general armor but it helped a lot against Hollow charge and all Hendheld AT weapons which all used hollow charges.

The frontal Panther armor was a real problem for all known US anti tank weapons and even 17 pounder struggled to pen panthers frontal armor. The Panther was a way more feared as Tigers by the US in 44 as the HVAP struggled to pen panthers and as panthers had been german standard battle tank in 44.



In the old forum i already talked about skirts and sandbags and they actually shouldnt improve the protection against enemie tank and anti tank canons but should help a lot against the Hendheld AT weapons. But for some reasons skirts and sandbags improves the the overall protection. Would be better if they would reduce hendheld AT weapons effectivness without providing any real protection against normal shells.


In Vcoh the skirts (vet 3 upgrade) help only against sticky bombs, zooks etc which are the main threat for them in vcoh but they do not change anything regarding to enemie gun shots.

[Wake]

Afaik, armor skirts in the mod just add health to the tank.

[Warhawks97]

Afaik, armor skirts in the mod just add health to the tank.

it gives armor muliplier afaik as well. Sandbags step one do give slightly more health and second step 0.85 armor muliplier or something like that. Basically all those skirts and and sandbags should reduce hendheld AT weapons TT´s against the upgraded tanks and reducing hollow charge rounds effectivness in general (Hetzer and stubby tank IV can use them).

[Wake]

Coh 1 engine still has lots of limitations, especially with tanks. The biggest is that there is no "side" armor value in the game, just front and rear. So when you shoot at the side of a tank, you have about a 50/50 chance to end up hitting the rear armor or the front armor.

[Wolf]

And sadly in CoH2 its not much better (if not worse)...