Sticky Bombs

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Warhawks97
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Sticky Bombs

Postby Warhawks97 » 10 Aug 2017, 14:01

Lately i had the chance in several occassions to use sticky. But somehow i was really disappointed.

Several times i managed to deploy two or even four sticky on a single tank which still was able to move. A Hetzer for example took 4 sticky. The second damaged engine, the other three nothing.

These sticky require a global upgrade and cost 25 ammo per use. For such cost immobilization or damaged engine could be expected more often. 100 ammo wasted and the tank still moved away.

Volks molotov cost iirc 15 ammo and deal critical engine damage always. Grens can use that hollow charge thing for 100 ammo dealing massive damage if not insta kills. And fausts, we dont need to talk about. Also Gammon bombs have proven to be way better by costing just 25 ammo more (and after commando buffs they throw two anyways.


I would like to hear some other experiences and opinions on that matter.

Mr. FeministDonut
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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 10 Aug 2017, 21:53

Considering how fastly U.S are dying, stickies should be buffed, maybe, towards critical hit of heavy tanks as it is the easiest target, or at least simply get cheaper.
In my view of situation, giving some free upgrades from T2 to specific doctrines should be good, the same like fixing rangers to only infantry doctrine, or combat engineers to the armor doctrine.
For example, giving it as default ability to infantry doctrine or making it cheaper as mass production(inf) research unlocked.

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 10 Aug 2017, 22:15

Not sure if stickies should be buffed, or anti-inf capabilites of tanks (and overall effectivness of mg's) should be reworked.
What i mean, is that situation when Panther is used as better anti-inf unit than Ostwind, for example, is just comic, as well as Achilles with its HE.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby Warhawks97 » 10 Aug 2017, 22:38

Not inf only as AB uses it more often than inf i would say. Inf can spam AT emplacment and use arty vs armor. AB´s best way to win vs armor is to immobilize.

So i would like to have it cheaper in activation. 15 ammo or so. 4 uses are 100 ammo just to luckily damage an engine? Thats poor.

kwok
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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby kwok » 11 Aug 2017, 10:41

Or just fix it so that it does immobilize reliably but keep the price... i mean it just sounds like a problem of the ability not its cost.

In other news, the HHL3 is pretty much useless as well as an ability. It's only good for killing immobilized tanks which honestly... there are plenty of other solutions that are less risky for every WM doc. Maybe a rework of that ability alongside a sticky bomb fix?

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Warhawks97
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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby Warhawks97 » 11 Aug 2017, 22:57

Sticky as an immobilization weapon and HHL3 simply cheaper. What does it cost? 50 or 100 ammo with a range of 1 with activation time or so.

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Redgaarden
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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby Redgaarden » 11 Aug 2017, 23:09

I hate sprint key and sticky bombs overlapping. So I wouldn't even researh it if I had unlimited resourcs. My point, is it has more drawbacks than actual good points.

As for HHL3 atleast it doesn't cost anything to get and doesn't overlap. But it's still not very useable at all since when you get close, the tanks just reverses away, same with sticky. You actualy need 3 or 4 people to get mangled by the tank treads before you're actually in range. In HHL3 case, you actually need the guy throwing it to get run over before he actually gets to place it.
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Kr0noZ
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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby Kr0noZ » 11 Aug 2017, 23:23

HHL3 is supposed to be used on immobilized tanks. while it was powerful, using it was crazy dangerous which we wanted to bring to the game as well. Use mines or arty to immobilize, then close in for the kill - it should finish off most tank if they have already suffered mine damage or arty hits.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby Warhawks97 » 12 Aug 2017, 00:26

Kr0noZ wrote:HHL3 is supposed to be used on immobilized tanks. while it was powerful, using it was crazy dangerous which we wanted to bring to the game as well. Use mines or arty to immobilize, then close in for the kill - it should finish off most tank if they have already suffered mine damage or arty hits.


well.. axis arty kills more often than it immobilizes it. There is little need to "finish a tank" since arty kills it anyway.



Back to sticky? How can it cause damaged engine twice to the same tank? Didnt know its even possible. Untill we immobilized a elephant with sticky the HP was down half so many sticky were necessary to finally stop it lol. We used many.

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Redgaarden
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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby Redgaarden » 12 Aug 2017, 02:20

HHL3 is supposed to be used on immobilized tanks. while it was powerful, using it was crazy dangerous which we wanted to bring to the game as well. Use mines or arty to immobilize, then close in for the kill - it should finish off most tank if they have already suffered mine damage or arty hits.


In that case. Couldn't it do more dmg than it does atm? I think it only hits a little harder than a panzerfuast or pz4.
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Frost
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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby Frost » 14 Aug 2017, 16:24

Warhawks97 wrote:
Kr0noZ wrote:HHL3 is supposed to be used on immobilized tanks. while it was powerful, using it was crazy dangerous which we wanted to bring to the game as well. Use mines or arty to immobilize, then close in for the kill - it should finish off most tank if they have already suffered mine damage or arty hits.


well.. axis arty kills more often than it immobilizes it. There is little need to "finish a tank" since arty kills it anyway.



Back to sticky? How can it cause damaged engine twice to the same tank? Didnt know its even possible. Untill we immobilized a elephant with sticky the HP was down half so many sticky were necessary to finally stop it lol. We used many.



i noticed also when i have destroyed engine i get engine damage along with destroyed engine......

so there is 2 engine damages and it stack to destroyed

about sticky bombs as far i know it should immobilize because planting that thing is almost a exp donate with the fact us inf are paper :lol:

even thought sticky were used irl to immobilize tanks anyway
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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 14 Aug 2017, 22:24

Frost wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote: so there is 2 engine damages and it stack to destroyed


Stickies are truly trickies. However this double-damage aspect aint as that bad, mostly works with RNG so far i understand it. Since u can get heavy crit with imobilisation on 100%HP vehicle with 1 thing used, and can get nothing from 3-4.., which is so-so fair. Those things aint supposed to be used as "true" anti-tank weapon but only a prevent measure, so they are, but using them against highly mobile and laser defended units are sometimes (mostly) frustrating..
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Warhawks97
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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby Warhawks97 » 14 Aug 2017, 22:36

True, but then they wouldnt cost 25 ammo per use (+ upgrade before).
And thats what i am asking for. If its just an "when a situation occurs" tool then it wouldnt cost so much ammo for a use.
And if it does cost so much, then there is a need to have some results.

Besides that this weapon (or actually many many uses of it) are often one of the "best options" to stop armor. Let it be axis TD with strong armor or some of their super heavies with invincible armor.
You cant make something so costly just to have a very small chance to do something actually usefull with it.

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 14 Aug 2017, 22:43

Warhawks97 wrote: are often one of the "best options" to stop armor. Let it be axis TD with strong armor or some of their super heavies with invincible armor.



Exactly, so that is my concern on this. I mean, price and hit/crit chance aint as that bad. Not op or useless in my eyes at all (since can be used at high numbers against 1unit), but fact, that it's only reliable on something under very specific situation (heavy/glass infantry = result) brings up price question too. Both for cheap rifles, who u will be not regret of losing and ammo on that. And i doubt economical aspect is a solution to this.., but u'r proposition will ofcourse somewhat make gameplay working too.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Aug 2017, 01:02

idliketoplaybetter wrote: (since can be used at high numbers against 1unit),


In the last situation (i can send the replay if you want) a elephant spawned right into my two rifle squads and like 4 or 5 squads of AB rangers (yes, we already entered enemie base). So it was without any support and we threw like 7 or more stickies on it. The tank moved quite far with an engine damaged before a dozens stickies later the tank stopped. Idk how many stickies you would be able to throw on such tanks under normal conditions due to support, speed of tank (Jagdpanther) or anti inf capabilities (KT). But such an ammount seems quite questionable. Despite that you will probably not have ammo in reserve for finisher since you have just spend easily more than 100 ammo for it.

The ammount of taken losses (even though it might be cheap) that results in enemie veterancy and and ammo spend can either question the cost of the ability or the efficiency.

Maybe there could be something in between that. 20 ammo per use and bit higher chance to immobilize a unit.

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 15 Aug 2017, 10:22

Well, first of all lets point out, that its Elephant. Prolly one of the most bugged/weird and rarely used heavy units ingame (not because its bugged or whatever, but just because its again, very specific).

I've seen games where totally indestructable Elephants owned everything, seen those where they die from 1longrange Hellcat Shot, which is totally normal RNG thing, but apparently, that armor and model bug(?) causes some RNG tricks when u'r using stickie against it. What im saying, is that it's not as that of a stickie problem, but u had bad luck, to confront maybe the worst unit to try out stickie there :D
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Kr0noZ
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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby Kr0noZ » 15 Aug 2017, 11:12

Can you make a bug thread please and be specific abut what seems to be bugged with the Elefant TD? That would interest me.

Sticky Bomb should probably get it's crit values adjusted to be more reliable in causing engine or track damage and immobilize; That way it would work as intended.

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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 15 Aug 2017, 11:39

Well, guess so, but i no more have replays of those games, where specific time Elephant surprised me. And im not even sure if its a "true" kind of bug, or was intented by modder from the start (if that is even possible). Since unit is slow and so-so easy to counter, so "hey, lets make it more sturdy against stickies, shall we?", aint sound like a stupid idea at all, but sometimes it looks odd, as well as engaging Hetzers and Jagdpanzer's with zooks and stickies, so that is why i decided it has something to do with TD model/unit role.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Aug 2017, 13:58

So you are basically saying that stickies work intentionally bad agains tanks that cant really defend themselfes against infantry? That would be stupid bc those tanks only real weakness is infantry. That would be a huge contradiction to boost their resistance against stuff like stickies.

About elephant i never used it so far and didnt face it that often. But regarding stickies it is a real random monster.

What i know is that in vcoh skirts reduced the chance to get a crit by stickies by 50% or so. Wouldnt mind if skirts would keep that up since their reasons of existance are exactly these. Counter to infantry AT weapon like stickies or hollow charge weapons.

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Re: Sticky Bombs

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 15 Aug 2017, 14:49

Warhawks97 wrote:So you are basically saying that stickies work intentionally bad agains



Well, that is the kind of impression i've got after a years of playing against TH. Even more, some patches ago, me and Agent Dunham tested US AT mines against TH units, i must say, those rarely work well against them too. Isnt that a contradiction?
Again, that was only an assumption, its one of two to me. Either it was intended for balance reasons, or its just some kind of model bug related to TD/TH that appeared from somewhere.

Warhawks97 wrote: About elephant i never used it so far and didnt face it that often. But regarding stickies it is a real random monster.


That is also a thing, u cant simply have enough decent games with Elephant to make it objective..
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