New unit?

[Krieger Blitzer]

@sgtToni95
Actually, this was never answered...
But just MarKr avoided the answer by telling this;

OK, we'll unify it...Storms will be not able to crawl with any AT while Infiltration Rangers and Marine Commandos will be able to crawl with any AT.

Which isn't a proper answer for sure.

I know about the linked post, but we are talking about crawl ability for Marine Commandos here.. or more precisely, i created this topic to discuss why the Shreck disables the crawl ability... As it obviously shouldn't be disabling it anymore.

And I think you already agree that they should all behave the same btw!

I agree all AT handheld weapons should behave the same way when used from crawling mode

[sgtToni95]

You're saying the same things again and again, and i probably chose the wrong place to bring up my doubts about "new unit" and consequent RAF changes since it doesn't seem the main problem. I thought SAS being the most expansive inf unit in the game and being used (maybe) only for the final parade in enemy's base, with the situation getting even worse with this "New unit" was at least as relevant as zooks.

And I think you already agree that they should all behave the same btw!

I agree all AT handheld weapons should behave the same way when used from crawling mode

I'm not an expert about crawling units and their AT weapons, but think shreck behaving the same way whoever picks them up, and zooks/piats/whatever behaving the same way whoever picks them up is definetly a fair solution.
Mark already answered you many times, you just have to read that.
I got the "not everything is meant to work the same" as a valid motivation for not coming here and saying "luft paras are rambos, SAS should be rambos too", maybe you can try accepting it as well (together with all the other motivations which have been brought to you).

[Devilfish]

@tiger
What about pros of a schrecks are having higher damage, higher penetration and quicker reload, cons being price and no-crawl. Seems reasonable.

@crawlingAT
I think crawling even as it is now is a bullcrap already (yay, let's lay a mobile ambush, wait what?!). Putting on Harry's invisibility cloak and rolling your way behind enemy armor is just a.....gonna stay polite.
Solution: Let all crawling units crawl with all handheld ATs, but disable them for a reasonable amount of time after revealing. Let's say 10,15,30s? You be the judge. It is possible? I don't know.

@newComandos/SAS sucks
I honestly don't really understand the motives behind adding a new unit that is basically identical to commandos, only it can crawl and jumps off only from glider. Anyone can explain please?

Why not make SAS actually a useful unit? If anyone drops them it's only to loot the weapon drop.
Solution: Add crawling to SAS, rebalance their price, maintenance and strength. Make it an ultimate RAF sabotage unit. Remove weapon drop and leave with just thompsons or +1 zook. Instead of CP free lee enfield brens, let the upgrade let you drop weapon crates of former SAS, zooks and brens for reasonable ammo price, either from sas captain, off-map menu or glider, similar to how AB drops res and luft drops mg/mortar crates. Like this RAF, player can customize their commandos and doesn't need to drop 650MP unit just to loot it and send on a suicide satchel charge mission.

@toni
I agree that altering RAF command tree is a good idea. Giving 95mm cromwell a CP requirement.

Cheers.

[Krieger Blitzer]

@sgtToni95
Yes, I probably repeated the same thing over and over again for quite sometimes.. as I am trying to enrich the discussion regarding the matter of which I believe is still ongoing and can be still discussed further... Yet, I would surely accept it if they would decide to keep it the way it is. However, I am still trying to throw all the arguments I have possibly got. As this is a subject that I am truly concerned about! Since I believe it's not really fine or fair if it would stay the way it is...

@Devilfish
I don't think Shrecks have any advantage, there are still mid-game Allied tanks who can hold up very well against it. While the Shreck is also more expensive already.. and consumes more weapon slots.
But this;

Solution: Let all crawling units crawl with all handheld ATs, but disable them for a reasonable amount of time after revealing. Let's say 10,15,30s? You be the judge. It is possible? I don't know.

I am not really sure what u mean with "disabling them" but yes, there is no doubt that I also just think that all crawling units should be able to crawl with all handheld ATs without any exceptions.

[MarKr]

Guys, I already said this. We implemented 5 second delay and smoke on gliders. You (not pointing specifically at anyone; here "you" means people here ) said that dropping glider on enemy units was the only way how to get relatively safely Sten commandos to effective combat range, thus waste glider (because it often got dstroyed) for taking out one or two units. Then you asked for the option to decide if you drop Sten commandos or Enfield commandos with the glider. This IS possible but honestly, nobody would use the Sten commandos option, maybe only is some very specific situations (urban maps etc.). We do not want that. So we wanted to give some option to use the glider off of battle and get to effective combat range without losing 3 soldiers in the closing maneuver. Giving simply crawl to Sten commandos brings tons of other issues - it would need to replace their current "ambush", ambush is unlocked in command tree. So would the crawl be available from the start or also with the current unlock? If without unlock, then the one unlcok option in the command tree would have no purpose and need to be replaced. If with the unlock then it would not solve the problem with "sten commandos need to get close to be effective" until you would unlock the crawl ability thus the glider would not be used (because of the current 5 seconds delay) until this unlocks would get purchased. Simply said new unit was the best solution for us here. Devilfish asks why it is only available with glider - as I said before, we don't want to make Sten commandos useless and if this new unit was buildable in glider or some truck then, quite honestly, would you EVER build sten commandos? Marine Commandos have crawl from start (stens have no crawl), they have 2xThompsons from start (stens can BUY 3x Thompsons) etc. so by making them buildable we would make Sten commandos obsolete, that means we could actually ditch the new unit alltogether and only give crawl to Commandos, but then again - crawl with or without unlock? (and we run in the circle again)

SAS was the first time mentioned here and not before in the other topic iirc, that topic was just about commandos. But giving crawl to SAS has its problems too. SAS have passive camo, dropping them "blind" into FoW is dangerous but you can sort of guess which part of the map has low probability of opponent's unit presence. So you drop them there, crawl them to some more frequent space, put them in cover (passive camo kicks in) you can disable the crawl and keep invisible and voala - you have invisible observation squad in opponents territory which reveals targets for airstrikes :/.

95mm Cromwell was given to the RAF ONLY because people here INSISTED that RAF desperatly needs some arty unit. I remeber Wolf being against it but in the end he did what people asked...we still don't think it is needed for RAF and now we should change command tree for a unit that we think shouldn't even there in the first place?

EDIT:
And no, there is no alpha version, Tiger only makes his predictions on how something will be a huge problem without even playing a single minute with the unit - that is one of the problems I have with these kinds of posts of his...

[Krieger Blitzer]

EDIT:
And no, there is no alpha version, Tiger only makes his predictions on how something will be a huge problem without even playing a single minute with the unit - that is one of the problems I have with these kinds of posts of his...

For god's sake dude...
I already said i have no problems with Marine Commandos at all. I am even fine if they would crawl with 6 Bazookas at once! Why don't u get my point already? -_-
I am here only talking about how Shrecks disable crawl ability when all other handeld AT weapons don't disable it on the other hand. Which is kinda unfair... And "not everything is meant to be the same" doesn't seem like a valid argument in this case.

[sgtToni95]

I think 95 mm cromwell was added because every other doctrine has some artillery (i personally don't like that either), but expecially because it does not fit in this doc i think a CP unlock would make sense instead of being there by default.

And i suggested to make it so the 95mm cromwell would have taken one of the commandos/glider related unlocks, so to make that section of the tech tree shorter, allowing both inf upgrades (to make all commandos stronger/better usable) and SAS available earlier.

Maybe i see it the wrong way, but i think sten commandos not being used in case of a possible choice of dropping lee-enfield ones (they'd still be buildable), is kind of acceptable. SAS are a parachutable unit (quite suitable for an air doctrine), with its own 2CP unlock, and it's the most expansive standalone infantry unit in the game.
Their advantage now is being droppable on the whole map and being able to reinforce everywhere and having 7 members (?).
What i think is lacking is their purpose, since both combat and sabotage are done in a better and cheaper way by other units available earlier.
Previously mentioned advantages make it just a very expensive expendable bait to take some units away from your opponent's frontline.

I used them in the game i posted in the replay section: as dunham said i dropped them to give my lee enfield commando squads an additional bren, and i destroyed and trapped the mp point when the game was already over (or at least it would have not had a strategical value), but in combat they were shredded by already veted infantry even if they had infantry upgrades from tech tree.

[Viper]

I agree all AT handheld weapons should behave the same way when used from crawling mode

Let all crawling units crawl with all handheld ATs

I think Shrecks should no longer disable the possibility to use evasive maneuvers anymore; just like all other handheld AT weapons.

and i just want to add my voice with everyone who say all handheld anti tank should act alike. i think the same too.
all of them should be possible to use when crawling, or none at all.

[JimQwilleran]

I think we should see if this new unit works well before start big discussions.

Also I don't really understand your complaints about RAF units. I use both sten and SAS in every game I play raf. They are useful and I would strongly disagree that SAS is weak. It's only a matter what fits into your strategy.

and it's the most expansive standalone infantry unit in the game.

You keep repeating that toni, but have you considered the fact that they come fully equipped with thompsons (equivalent of around 100 ammo), together with 2 brens (110 ammo) and 2 upgraded bazookas (let's say also 100 ammo). They can also be reinforced anywhere, and also have passive cammo even before you unlock it in command tree. They can also destroy res points.

For me this unit is extremely useful and cost effective.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Agreed, SAS aren't weak or useless.. i also don't understand why people start such deep discussions about the new unit here. So just to clarify again, because it seems like some people still fail to see why i created this topic in the first place...
This topic is not to judge the new unit in any possible way. And i also think that adding such new unit is absolutely fine as well as a good idea.
However, in this topic; I am only raising a question about Shrecks in crawling mode as comparison with other handheld AT weapons.

[JimQwilleran]

This topic is not to judge the new unit in any possible way. And i also think that adding such new unit is absolutely fine as well as a good idea.
However, in this topic; I am only raising a question about Shrecks in crawling mode as comparison with other handheld AT weapons.

Lol, so why topic's name is "New unit?" xD?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Because, i started the topic by announcing the new unit first.
As i wouldn't ever have raised such a question regarding the Shreck in crawling mode.. until i have seen how this new unit will be able to crawl with 4 Zookas, RLs or PIATs.

[sgtToni95]

I'm not saying sas are weak, just other units can do what they do for a lower price.

@Nami would you mind sending me few replays where you do? I really would like to see them used early and with effectiveness.

[Warhawks97]

I dont get the actual problem. oO

When schreck disable crawl for all units (for axis and allis) why is it then unfair?
Coz of game principles? Hendeld AT= unable to crawl? Why? coz both are hendheld AT weapons?
Shall submachine guns act like rifles because they are anti infantry weapons? I think no. As there are different types of anti inf weapons acting differently we can also have different hendheld AT weapons with pros and cons,


From a "game principal" point of view.... well, markr has listed many examples of diverging "game principals".

From a "realistic point of view": When the schreck is a two- handed sword made for the loudest and strongest guy, the Piat might be the sneaky knife used by Assassins. Both weapons killiing people, both are used in different ways.

[Krieger Blitzer]

It's unfair because this way Shrecks are behaving differently to all other handheld AT weapons for no real reason.

If the game allows some units to crawl with Zookas, PIATs or RLs, then why not also with the Shreck??!!
Would a StormTroop unit crawling with 1 Shreck break the balance but 1 Marine Commando crawling with 4 Zookas not break it?? Keeping in mind Marine Commandos can crawl by default, and StormTroops need unlock first.

Shreck is an Axis weapon, so this way it can be unfair for Axis too.

[MarKr]

So Tiger, what exactely are you after? You first name this topic "New unit" then you say that it is not about Marine Commandos, it is actually not even about CW but about Panzerschreck disabling crawl while other hand held AT don't and call for some unification:

You say that StormTroops have different purpose than infiltration Rangers or Marine Commandos, therefore they aren't supposed to crawl with a handheld AT weapon... Right? Well, take this question;
Why are Storms allowed to crawl with a Bazooka, a PIAT or RL when they pick it up from the ground??!!
See?? They only can't crawl exclusively with the Shreck.

Why don't you just unify the whole thing, with a solid principle that applies to everyone?!

So I said we'll unify it:

OK, we'll unify it...Storms will be not able to crawl with any AT while Infiltration Rangers and Marine Commandos will be able to crawl with any AT.

This would clearly be a unified system but you are unhappy again...so the real thing is not to get some general unification but it is more about to get the unification that YOU like...well...though luck, man.

It's unfair because this way Shrecks are behaving differently to all other handheld AT weapons for no real reason.

Btw:

- Rifles with one BAR can use suppress button BUT 101st need two BARs to use that
- Most engineer units need upgrade to use demo charges but there is iirc some special squad which does not need upgrade to use demo charge
- Vehicles with HE mode need to purchase upgrade to use the mode - Cromwells and 37mm WM Halftrack do not need that
- Better weapons for infantry, in general, need to be bought via upgrades, Reg5 and Gebirgs come with best weapons in the game as default
- All "multipurpose" mines cost the same in the game, but CW Hawkins is cheaper
- All factions have static bases but CW hase mobile base
- All factions (not counting doctrines) have one infantry commanding unit, CW has LT and Captain and on top of that CW can have 3 LTs at the same time

- BAR suppression is unfair because it gives the ability to Riflemen after one upgrade but to 101st only after 2 upgrades and the most unfairest thing is that when anyone else picks it up, they don't get suppression ability at all!!! Unfair, BARs behave differently based on unit for no reason!
- Demo ability is unfair because US/WM engineers need to spend ammo on upgrade but Luft Pios have it from start without upgrade! Unfair, Luft pios behave differently from other engineer units in the game for no reason.
- HE on Cromwel and WM is unfair because others need to pay high ammo cost for upgrade that allows to use HE! For no reason.
- For no reason Luft infantry comes with best weapons without need for upgrade, unfair!
- Generally speaking, weapons obtained by upgrade can be dropped any picked up again (LMGs, MP40, MP44/ Thompsons etc.) but this does not apply to G43, Grease guns and flamethowers...unfair for no reason!
etc...In principle Schrecks are the same thing as the above mentioned - an exception from a rule and still here in these cases is the "unfair for no reason" somehow justifyable for you but only in case of Schrecks it is not.

[Krieger Blitzer]

This would clearly be a unified system but you are unhappy again...

It must be that u were just joking. As you admit some unification has to be done after I illustrated, but then u call for a different kind of unification than what I have illustrated for! This sounded like it is you who are only trying to unify it the way you like, or just anything else or any other sort of unification except what i have been pointing at.
So, i wonder.. was it just about unifying it? Of course not. As it's all about to allow the crawling units to crawl with ALL kind of handheld AT weapons, or not to allow either any of them.

So, even if generally not everything is meant to be the same.. what's so bad about allowing Shrecks to be used in crawling mode just like other handheld ATs now?? Would it break balance?! No, it won't.

Not to mention that actually most of the examples you brought are very different and don't apply on this case here... For example the one about BAR suppression is completely irrelevant. Because it's only concerning Allies, but the other side, which is Axis.. have nothing to do with it. So there is nothing unfair! It is balanced.

Same with Cromwell HE as another example, Axis also have Blitz doc 37mm halftrack which is also upgraded with HE rounds by default, so.. again nothing is unfair and everything is balanced.

A lot of Allied inf units are armed to teeth by default too, such as SAS. So, again nothing is unfair about Luft inf...

I don't want to go down the whole list, but few things u mentioned has something to do with the game engine too.
So dude.. i think my point here is pretty solid. As I think it's unfair and also very odd how Marine Commandos will be able to crawl with 4 Bazookas, when at the same time crawling with just 1 Shreck is forbidden for Storms.

[Panzerblitz1]

Give me a full upgrade storm versus a commando, i'll bet 100% of the time on the storm with/without crawl, there is no need to put more wall text here, as we will NOT change that, suggestion has been heard, the idea with the marine commando was to giev a little more specialized unit for the CW, but you're killing the fun of it being obssessed with that Shreck story...

[Krieger Blitzer]

Full upgraded Storm require a lot of ammo. They are superior at long range, but they would lose at close range without any doubts...

But oh well, like i said earlier.. i am not mad or angry about it. So i am not going to push any further... I will stop right here!
Glad that my point was at least heard and also discussed.

[MarKr]

And I could say again that my example with BAR is relevant and in principle the same because Axis infantry can pick up BAR but gain no suppression ability etc. and you would still keep on track with your justification why it is unfair and whatnot.

So no more wall of text from my side.

We don't want Storms to crawl with AT weapons - thus the unification I described would be no joke, simply means to achieve what we want. Axis have in each doc at least one unit with strong gun to take out armored targets. Allies don't. If CW player wants to equip their Marine commandos with 100 bazookas and crawl with them all over the map, investing micro in this tactic even though you could invest your micro skills in other, more rewarding way, and waste all this time to destroy ONE tank (and destroying the tank is not guaranteed anyway), then it is fine with us. It is a trade-off.

You don't have to agree but this is how it is. End of story.

[Lionelus]

Hello bk community

If I remember well, stormtroopers can be called from building. That would be the issue

All in all, that would mean you could call a stormtroopers squad, on the frontline, get a schreck (buy or find), crawl right away and get into position immediately for ambush, or even infiltrate behind enemy lines.

Example : Scorched earth infiltration 4 men squad can come from building and crawl immediately. Amazing and very effective unit (hard to get rid off, if well managed).

So Tiger would like the same, with a 6 men squad, able to crawl, to be infiltred and with AT capacity, correct ?

I guess that would be too much. And for the same reason, SAS shouldnt get crawl.

As for rangers or commando, able to crawl with AT, they still have a long and hard road to get on point. Really not the same as stormies or SAS who can be called in everywhere.
Not to mention, commando and rangers do have a special force / infiltration role, not frontline shock troops.

On that concern, Stoormtroopers are shock troops. Crawling is here to help breaking through defenses and counter balance lack of arty. Not for ambush, disruptive maneuvers behind enemy lines and tank hunting. Giving crawl to Stormies schreck could somehow change their role in the current gameplay. They could turn to full infiltration squad, and shock troops role would be abandonned. That would be sad, and not very accurate historically wise.

As for Marine Commando, I'm very glad. Always a pleasure to see new units

[Krieger Blitzer]

Axis have in each doc at least one unit with strong gun to take out armored targets. Allies don't.

Allies also DO.

@Lionelus
I think u forgot that Marine Commandos can be also called everywhere just like Storms...
Marine Commandos come with Glider, gliders require view. Storms also require view to spawn in buildings.

So, no.. it's not even like SAS who can literally drop anywhere just like AB or Luft units.

[MarKr]

Allies also DO.

I said GUN, not bomb or rocket or arty (though arty is technically a gun ) - simply said an armored vehicle with a gun that can destroy enemy tanks with direct fire.
So Def has Elephant with 88mm, BK has Panther with 75mm kwk42, Terror has Panthers and KTs, SE has Nahorn, Luft Panther, TH has lots of toys - except for Nashorn all of these have solid armor too.
Strongest guns in Allied doctrines:
Infantry doc 76mm gun (AT or Sherman), AB doc 76mm gun (AT or Sherman), Armor doc 90mm (Pershing/Jackson), CW all docs 17 pounder (strongest armor Sherman for RA and RAF; Comet for RE). So even if 17 pounders are relatively strong, Panthers can still bounce them off sometimes while the chance that Sherman will bounce off Panther gun shot is way lower, KT shot almost non-existent.

So in general chances are more in the Axis favor in this; my initial point still stands.

[Devilfish]

Solution: Let all crawling units crawl with all handheld ATs, but disable the handheld AT(s) for a reasonable amount of time after revealing. Let's say 10,15,30s? You be the judge. It is possible? I don't know.

What do you think about this? Are you guys all ok with a game mechanism that allows you to easily close distance to armored targets unnoticed and unload a zooks into it (especially expensive axis machinery)? Isn't it kinda contradictory with the latest handheld AT aiming time nerf?

Solution: Add crawling to SAS, rebalance their price, maintenance and strength. Make it an ultimate RAF sabotage unit. Remove weapon drop and leave with just thompsons or +1 zook. Instead of CP free lee enfield brens, let the upgrade let you drop weapon crates of former SAS, zooks and brens for reasonable ammo price, either from sas captain, off-map menu or glider, similar to how AB drops res and luft drops mg/mortar crates. Like this RAF, player can customize their commandos and doesn't need to drop 650MP unit just to loot it and send on a suicide satchel charge mission.

What do you think about this idea, if we exclude the crawling ability?

@Mark
Can't you just limit the marines to 1 unit? I mean it's sucky if one loses the squad and needs to drop the whole glider again with the increased price.

[Krieger Blitzer]

@MarKr
Well, both Allied factions have planes. Therefore no big guns in every doctrine... WH has no planes whatsoever, therefore big guns in every doctrine.
And the Firefly is such a great tank btw, and it's available in all CW docs. But i am mot willing to go off-topic. So anyways!

@Devilfish
I don't usually agree with u. But i must agree on what u said here... At least partly agreeing.

Are you guys all ok with a game mechanism that allows you to easily close distance to armored targets unnoticed and unload a zooks into it (especially expensive axis machinery)? Isn't it kinda contradictory with the latest handheld AT aiming time nerf?

Even though i don't really think that crawling with handheld AT is a bad concept at all. As I was only questioning why some handheld ATs can do it but others not... And i don't think that crawling with AT is contradictory with adding 2s aim time at all. But in fact, it perfectly compensates with it.. because crawling with AT might be the only way not to get slaughtered with HE shells after the aim time nerf of handheld AT weapons...
But after all i still agree how u said "vs axis machinery" since that Axis are apparently not allowed to use crawling the same way against Allied machinery the other way around! Which is why i repeated saying it's unfair.

I think SAS are fine, and i like them the way how they are...
But i am fine if the Marine Commando would be build-able but limited to 1 unit.. but Sten Commandos would be spawning back with the glider for sure.