New unit?

Talk about CoH1 or BKMOD1 in general.
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MarKr
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Re: New unit?

Postby MarKr » 13 Jun 2017, 19:14

Devilfish wrote:
Solution: Let all crawling units crawl with all handheld ATs, but disable the handheld AT(s) for a reasonable amount of time after revealing. Let's say 10,15,30s? You be the judge. It is possible? I don't know.
What do you think about this? Are you guys all ok with a game mechanism that allows you to easily close distance to armored targets unnoticed and unload a zooks into it (especially expensive axis machinery)? Isn't it kinda contradictory with the latest handheld AT aiming time nerf?
I don't think it is possible to "disable" an infantry weapon for certain ammount of time, so so much for this idea :/.
Anyway, if by "are you all guys" you mean the whole dev team, then yes. Because if you bring any stealth-detecting unit and infantry with your expensive axis machinery as support, these crawling units with "tons" of zookas will be detected and shredded to crap before they can even fire the AT. Motorbikes (detects stealth at range of 30), Kettenkrads (30), Schwimmwagens (WM 18 ;PE 30), scouts (40)...all can detect them and their miles-long crawl have been for nothing without firing a single shot. The options are there, if people don't use them is not really a balance issue.

Devilfish wrote:
Solution: Add crawling to SAS, rebalance their price, maintenance and strength. Make it an ultimate RAF sabotage unit. Remove weapon drop and leave with just thompsons or +1 zook. Instead of CP free lee enfield brens, let the upgrade let you drop weapon crates of former SAS, zooks and brens for reasonable ammo price, either from sas captain, off-map menu or glider, similar to how AB drops res and luft drops mg/mortar crates. Like this RAF, player can customize their commandos and doesn't need to drop 650MP unit just to loot it and send on a suicide satchel charge mission.
What do you think about this idea, if we exclude the crawling ability?
Well, dropping the weapon creates is something I don't like much as it gives you possibility to easily equip those guns to your other units (Tommies or send it to allies). But really, why? Jim already said that he uses SAS with good efficiecy. I am curious about how people actually use SAS...because to me it looks like people try to use them same way as e.g. Reg5 and then they complain that SAS does not equal Reg5 in combat performance. Reg5 is combat unit, SAS is harrasment unit - drop them somewhere, disable point and wire it if you have enough time and run from there (cutting opponet off from reources for a while). Extra weapons give ways to repel enemy units that intervene but not really made for frontal assaults.

Devilfish wrote:@Mark
Can't you just limit the marines to 1 unit? I mean it's sucky if one loses the squad and needs to drop the whole glider again with the increased price.
We could but then people would build Marines, destroy glider, and call in another one - voala, 2 units, limit bypassed. This way the cost of MP for one Marine squad is so high that it discourages people from bypassing the limit...
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Re: New unit?

Postby JimQwilleran » 13 Jun 2017, 19:20

MarKr wrote:I am curious about how people actually use SAS...because to me it looks like people try to use them same way as e.g. Reg5 and then they complain that SAS does not equal Reg5 in combat performance.

Toni asked me for sas replays earlier, I dont have any, but we will play a game vs each other instead. I will try to use as much sas as I can, and we might later upload this replay. But that's gonna happen only in a few days, cause exam session :/.

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Re: New unit?

Postby Tiger1996 » 13 Jun 2017, 19:30

MarKr wrote:Because if you bring any stealth-detecting unit and infantry with your expensive axis machinery as support, these crawling units with "tons" of zookas will be detected and shredded to crap before they can even fire the AT. Motorbikes (detects stealth at range of 30), Kettenkrads (30), Schwimmwagens (WM 18 ;PE 30), scouts (40)...all can detect them and their miles-long crawl have been for nothing without firing a single shot.

This brings me back to our primary subject.. as this would also apply on Storms if they would be able to crawl with Shrecks btw... Don't u think? And the Recce can detect them so easily too.. not to mention they can't have more than 1 Shreck, or hardly 2 if they are lucky to pick another from the ground.
So i am not sure why u don't want Storms to crawl with AT too. If it's because Storms can spawn in buildings, then we can't forget Marine also come with gliders.
And if it's because Axis have more big guns, then well.. we can't forget Allies have more planes!
If it's because not everything is meant to be the same.. then i understand... Though it sounds a little unfair in this case like i said.
But meh... Whatever!

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Re: New unit?

Postby Devilfish » 13 Jun 2017, 19:54

@Mark
@crawlingAT
What about debuffing at aimtime/reloadtime for certain amount of time, same as after sprinting and thus simulation of them being disabled?

By all guys I meant the bk community, so it includes devs aswell. With all respect, some things are different in real game than on paper. Bikes and Schwimms are really complicated to utilize later in game, because they are very fragile to basically everything at that point. Scouts and Kettles are used to spot the map so unless the opponent crawls right in their way. Trust me, unless you play a narrow tunneled map, actively spotting hidden units is very complicated.

@SAS
Well, I have never ever seen a player to actually truly utilize SAS in game. Not even Nami, even though he says so, I truly haven't. Toying around with them or dropping them for the brens and zooks for pimping out already vetted commandos in already won games, yes. But someone getting them in 50/50 state of game and thanks to them turning the game in his favor, never.

Dropping SAS deep in enemy territory and disabling point is again just a dream on a paper. Same as with Falshs. They will just get slaughtered. Waste of MP. Maybe for breaking an almost broken opponent.
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Re: New unit?

Postby MarKr » 13 Jun 2017, 21:22

Devilfish wrote:@crawlingAT
What about debuffing at aimtime/reloadtime for certain amount of time, same as after sprinting and thus simulation of them being disabled?
The problem is that there is a limited ammount of things you can buff/debuff, cooldown can be changed, aim time cannot. Given the fact that usually what people do is "fire and retreat" (not waiting for another shot) then debuffing cooldown/reload time makes little sense because the entire cooldown/reload would happen while they are retreating and thus it would not "disable" anything.

Devilfish wrote:By all guys I meant the bk community, so it includes devs aswell. With all respect, some things are different in real game than on paper. Bikes and Schwimms are really complicated to utilize later in game, because they are very fragile to basically everything at that point. Scouts and Kettles are used to spot the map so unless the opponent crawls right in their way. Trust me, unless you play a narrow tunneled map, actively spotting hidden units is very complicated.
"Spotting hidden units is very complicated" Let me get something straight...this whole discussion has been mentioning "units crawling across the map" - that means that what people are actually affraid of is that you have a unit somewhere, planning your attack and the crawling unit will get all the way to it and bust its ass with zookas. How hard is it in such scenario to park one Bike near your Panther/whatever-unit? Zookas have max range of 45 - at this range they have accuracy of 45% which is not that great and I would expect that opponent will try to get closer while crawling to get better chance of hit. At closer range you will already detect them. These detection units cost around 200MP, is that really such huge investment to protect your heavy tanks?

Also you don't need to detect stealth across your entire map. Only at places where the stealth units could cause damage.

And when you say that things are different on the paper and in the game...sure, there is a difference but how much difference is it? On the paper we tell you what you can use to counter something else. In real game what prevents you from doing it? Usually resources, map and your micro skills (have I forgotten something? tell me if something else has significant impact here). If the map is approximately divided 50:50 between your opponent and you, then resource income should be more or less the same, then available resources are matter of your resource management but if rather spent MP on infantry unit than on a unit that can protect your tank from ambush, that is your decision but hardly a balance issue. If your opponent has more resources than you then they usually have more map control and in such situation you simply are in disadvantage in general, map control is game mechanics and resource shortage connected to is dependent on skill.
Micro skills is simply competence of a player and we cannot adjust things so that less competent players get easier play time because then the more competent players will win as easy as never before.
Map...we keep telling people that the game is balanced for the +1 system, the fact that people keep playing on maps where one doc has clear advantage is, again, not problem of the mod but players not listening to what is being said to them.

Also sometimes people tell me "your stats are wrong, in real game it behaves differently" (meaning accuracy, penetration etc.) so I set up testing game, spend time on veryfying it and in the end it mostly really fits to what stats say. I can remember Endro, who once wrote to me something like "Comet frontally always penetrates KTs" I said "Stats say that the pen. chance is x%" he said "no, really try it, every time Comet penetrates KT" so I set up testing game (10 neutral KTs and one Commet owned by player) and invited Endro to watch stream. I remember that first KT survived about 5 hits (some deflections some penetrations), second KT died after 3 hits (in this case every hit was pen. 3rd hit killed KT) and Endro was like "see??? this happens all the time in the game!" and the very next KT survived about 18 hits. Of course these situations (3hit kill and surving 18 shots) are extremes but the main point was that when I counted the penetration rate after the test, it corresponded with what the stats said. People simply remember better the situations when their tank misses/defletcs but forget the same situation 10 times before where in the same situation the tank hit/penetrated the target...

Devilfish wrote:@SAS
Well, I have never ever seen a player to actually truly utilize SAS in game. Not even Nami, even though he says so, I truly haven't. Toying around with them or dropping them for the brens and zooks for pimping out already vetted commandos in already won games, yes. But someone getting them in 50/50 state of game and thanks to them turning the game in his favor, never.
Well, nami said he would have a game and try to show how he uses SAS so I would say we wait to see what he got to show and then we can discuss this further :)

Devilfish wrote:Dropping SAS deep in enemy territory and disabling point is again just a dream on a paper. Same as with Falshs. They will just get slaughtered. Waste of MP. Maybe for breaking an almost broken opponent.
When you play the recommended +1 system, how exactely does the opponent's team keep mobile enough to go after your single SAS (which you dropped in some corner way back from main combat line) across half of the map when you keep the front line under pressure at the same time? If he sends something back to fight your SAS he cannot have that unit fighting on the front line, if he ignores you, you can keep sabotaging stuff freely - that is the harrasment principle, not only "go in destroy units and retreat". I don't claim to be any "pro" in this game but back at dorms I used to play BK LAN with friends and they hated when I used SE sabo squad and kept destroying their points which they thougt were deep enough in their territory so they did not protect them and "boom" suddenly they started trying to figure out how I got there, if maybe I have more units there, they started moving part of their units from the front and suddenly they had weak point in defense...offense time. Also I know that for some reason VP games are not preffered in BK but "disable point" ability is way more potent in those games...

Sorry for getting a bit OT and wall of text, but the bottom line is that the more I face the "game is different from your stats" the more it seems it is actually not that different.
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Re: New unit?

Postby JimQwilleran » 13 Jun 2017, 21:51

MarKr wrote:Well, nami said he would have a game and try to show how he uses SAS so I would say we wait to see what he got to show and then we can discuss this further


Toni couldn't stand waiting and rushed to try SAS today. I wonder what he is gonna tell us after the game. I will try to play with sas tomorrow too ;).

I also agree with all points of Markr so far. Getting your crawling unit anywhere is very micro intensive.
Last edited by JimQwilleran on 13 Jun 2017, 21:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New unit?

Postby Warhawks97 » 13 Jun 2017, 21:52

Oh... 4 pages now.

Well. At first the so called "game principal" - Hendeld AT= no crawl- was used to justify either crawl for all Hendheld AT weapons or no crawl for all of them.
Reasonable counter argument: There are different types of hendheld AT weapons with pros and cons. Schreck is simply powerfull in terms of damage, pen and accuracy. Others sneaky but weaker.

We also have the size and weight argument that can be brought in.

Now it seems that the real point is that storms cant crawl with their schrecks. Which is, for reasons mentioned above, is not a problem. Why? Coz they are stormtroopers and the crawl shall help to get closer on defenses to throw grenade bundels and to clear enemie defensive positions.

Commandos are commandos that simply cause some trouble behind the lines and stuff like that. Simply a different role. And in case they pick a schreck they lose the crawl ability as well.


Balance wise.... Will players really sneak arround for minutes untill they picked 4 zooks. Then crawling arround for minutes again and trying to somehow avoid being detected by one of the many detecting units? I would bet that this is, if at all, going to happen maybe once in a thousand games.



So if the weapon itself is the subject (schrecks cant used for crawl, others cant), then its not unfair coz it is simply a different weapon, just like we have different guns.

if the unit is the issue then its also not unfair at all as its role is different.

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Re: New unit?

Postby kwok » 13 Jun 2017, 22:30

Hey Markr, can you tell us a bit more about this "+1 system" that this mod is balanced for?

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Re: New unit?

Postby Devilfish » 13 Jun 2017, 22:45

I don't know why you assumed, but I'm not talking about KT being parked deep inside territory doing nothing for whatever reason and squad crawling 5 minutes to get it, that's never going to happen for several reasons. What I'm talking about is crawling units with AT are basically performing a mobile ambush, which is bullshit, imo. You don't need to crawl for half of the game, just move around as enemy attacks, retreats, performs repairs near the front lines whatever. It's an cheesy ambush, which can adapt to enemy's actions.
Seems you got really triggered by the "paper vs reality", but really it's not about not being able to accept rng here or whatever, this has nothing to do with it. Dunno what you mean by "game is balanced for +1", when bigger maps means more room for crawl unit to maneuver and more difficult to cover with spots.

When you play the recommended +1 system, how exactely does the opponent's team keep mobile enough to go after your single SAS

Puma or 20mm PE car or whatever anti-inf mobile vehicle and SAS are doomed unless they are in heavy urban area.
...they started trying to figure out how I got there, if maybe I have more units there...

They probably weren't too much familiar with the mod were they? Otherwise the moment they had seen that sabo squad is capturing their point in the back of the map they would have known that you popped them of the building and they don't have any reinforcement nor AT, so all it would have taken was recee/m20 to solve the problem.
Now you're mentioning sabos, they are at least cheap and can crawl, unlike SAS.
I can tell you from my experience, not really SAS cause nobody uses them, but there have been many Falshs being dropped behind lines to disable points and all they always get is full load of quad .50 in the face.
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Re: New unit?

Postby Tiger1996 » 13 Jun 2017, 22:51

Warhawks97 wrote:Well. At first the so called "game principal" - Hendeld AT= no crawl- was used to justify either crawl for all Hendheld AT weapons or no crawl for all of them.
Reasonable counter argument: There are different types of hendheld AT weapons with pros and cons. Schreck is simply powerfull in terms of damage, pen and accuracy. Others sneaky but weaker.

This kind of argument doesn't work. Saying "it's because Shreck is better" is not a valid argument at all in my humble opinion...
First, because there are some relatively cheap Allied tanks which are available in mid game who can't be simply rushed from the front with Shrecks. Talking about Jumbos and Churchills as an example.. but even ordinary HE Shermans can be very hard to destroy using inf btw, specifically after this 2s aim time nerf of handheld AT weapons.
So, the Shreck might be better stats wise.. but gameplay wise... It's just the same as Zookas.
As said, both Jumbos and Churchills can hold up very well against Shrecks, they are quite hard to penetrate.
So don't tell me Shrecks are better, because simply they aren't... But even if they were better.. aren't Shrecks already more expensive and also consume more slots? Even the Axis AT teams are more expensive, for no real benefit actually.

But saying that only Shrecks should disable crawl ability because they are better than all other handheld AT weapons.. is like saying only Tiger tanks should be possible to catch engine fire, but other tanks shouldn't.. because Tigers are better.
Which is complete bullshit for sure...

Regarding the purpose of StormTroops, how is crawling with Shreck any related to this subject? Storms already can't crawl by default but only after unlock, unlike Marine commandos or infiltration Rangers on the other hand.
Cuz their role is different...

And this game never gives a fk about weapons weight or size, so why would it suddenly give a fk now?

I see it more of being biased to Allies than anything else to be honest. Because i can see nothing wrong about balance if Storms would also crawl with Shrecks just like Marine Commandos crawling with god knows how many Zookas...

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Re: New unit?

Postby kwok » 13 Jun 2017, 22:57

Has anyone honestly TRIED an honest effort of multiple games with the +1 map size....... Cuz whenever I tried to get a game going I got no joins, instant leaves, or non-stop bitching until I changed the map to something as typical as duclair/montherme every freaking game...

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Re: New unit?

Postby MarKr » 13 Jun 2017, 23:14

Bigger maps mean " more room for crawl unit to maneuver and more difficult to cover with spots", yes, for you...what do bigger maps mean for opponent? Moving over bigger distance to attack your SAS takes more time, covering the map with units is harder etc.

"Puma or 20mm PE car or whatever anti-inf mobile vehicle and SAS are doomed unless they are in heavy urban area" so SAS with 2 upgraded zooks in cover cannot take down one Puma or 20mm PE car? There must be something seriously fucked up...

"Now you're mentioning sabos, they are at least cheap and can crawl, unlike SAS." ...and have no AT weapons, are just 4 men so easier to kill etc. It was just example of what the disable point can do. Of course that if there is some infantry shredding unit nearby then they can get their ass kicked but when there is some reaction time needed for them you have time to do stuff. But as I said, nami says he can use SAS effectivelly so let's wait for his replay and see.
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Re: New unit?

Postby Devilfish » 13 Jun 2017, 23:47

You mentioned +1 in the paragraph about crawling AT. And +1 favors the crawlers not the victim.

Moving over bigger distances takes more time, yes, that's why I said Puma and cars. They are freaking fast so unless you play 1v1 on 4v4 (even though they are sill gonna cover half of the map very quickly).
so SAS with 2 upgraded zooks in cover cannot take down one Puma or 20mm PE car? There must be something seriously fucked up...

Well no. Unless terrain is greatly in their favor (urban/many complicated obstacles), they cant really do anything against reasonably well microed 20mm cars and similar, because it can dance around them freely, since they are cut off, alone, far from any other friendly units. Additionally, the new 2s aiming time.

Yes, sabos were example what disable points can do. But "what they can do" was just a result of a bad play of your friends, because (that's why I said it) all they needed was recee/m20 and no, it doesn't have to be nearby, because it cover distance very quickly. And if it takes your opponent's attention to micro it around your sabos/SAS, they it takes your attention to micro your sabos/SAS aswell, doesn't it.
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Re: New unit?

Postby KornBlatt » 14 Jun 2017, 05:36

kwok wrote:Has anyone honestly TRIED an honest effort of multiple games with the +1 map size.......

Playing with empty slots is handing the game over to the British and PE. Brits will rush good resource points with their trucks unopposed with no risk. PE will capture unopposed points fast with capping cars. The British and PE are already favored by developers above the US and Wehr. No need to make them play even worse.

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Re: New unit?

Postby sgtToni95 » 14 Jun 2017, 08:12

JimQwilleran wrote:
Toni couldn't stand waiting and rushed to try SAS today. I wonder what he is gonna tell us after the game. I will try to play with sas tomorrow too ;).


I know this was not the best try, but i had a game where i tried to get sas as soon as possible.
Result: while i was trying to play with plan brot units my dorect opponent kept me locked down with pak+mg and outranged me with mortar (was a tunneled map so flanking was not really an option, should have used smoke), and i had to help my allies dealing with with gebirs.
By the time i unlocked SAS my opponents had built 3 88s which were enough to lock down the whole map and soon after we had to deal with panthers and tigers.

Problem is i just played to use SAS so i didn't create the right scenario to use them.

Would have helped going for airstrike and achilles unlock, but that way i would have probably had a normal RAF game where SAS would have been unlocked in late game when they would have not been necessary, but used just for the sake of using them.

P.S.: I must say i'm aware i'm not being objective at all in theese posts.

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Re: New unit?

Postby JimQwilleran » 14 Jun 2017, 08:40

Well, 3 88s surely isn't a normall game :/.

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Re: New unit?

Postby seha » 14 Jun 2017, 09:40

And this game never gives a fk about weapons weight or size, so why would it suddenly give a fk now?

I see it more of being biased to Allies than anything else to be honest. Because i can see nothing wrong about balance if Storms would also crawl with Shrecks just like Marine Commandos crawling with god knows how many Zookas.

and maybe people forget piat is 15kg and this is 4kg more heavy than panzershreck. but they can still crawl with piat and not with panzershreck :!: i agree this size/weight story has no value in this argument.

but maybe its hitlers fault. he didnt feed german soldiers well enough. so they got no good muscles to crawl with 11kg weapon (irony)

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Re: New unit?

Postby MarKr » 14 Jun 2017, 14:47

Guys, I am really getting sick of this...yes, obviously if we don't do what Tiger wants, we are biased towards allies and systematically try to nerf axis to oblivion...
Do you really have any sort of feeling that Stormtrooper infantry is weak? I already said, Storms are primarily COMBAT infantry. They are meant to go head on head with enemy and they get the option to crawl later in the game to get some more utility.
Storms cost 450MP. There are 6 of them in the squad, each has 95HP, they have good basic rifles and are flexible with their weapon upgrades. They have a command unit that consists of 4 men so it is harder to kill this squad than one-man commander "squad". They come with mobile HQ which heals, works as retreat point etc. In addition to all this, their "Veterancy unlock" makes them take -25% damage from any source (so that is bullets, bombs, arty....).
You can use the reward StuGIII with "Assault" ability which makes all grenadiers but ALSO Storms take -30% damage and become 75% harder to suppress...yes, these values stack (multiplicatively) so when you combine them your Storms take 44% less damage and are fucking hard to suppress...these values also stack with bonuses from cover btw...not enough? OK, the ability "Blitzkrieg tactics" makes your infantry 50% harder to suppress and they also shoot 25% faster...so in the end your Storms take 44% less damage (even less when in cover), they take only 12.5% of suppression. Still not enough? Did I mention that you have Tigers and Panthers at your disposal? I bet that combining units is something that you veteran players know something about...so you have killer infantry combined with one of the best tanks in the game...on the other hand I don't understand because on the paper things are different than in the game and actually you never can get at the same time Panther, StuGII and several Storm squads...I mean, I am biased towards allies and that is why we know about these abilities and their stacking effects and keep it for axis but give nothing similar to allies.
If we take a look not only at Storms and their crawl with Schreck but on the whole doctrine, BK doc has very good infantry and the doc can deal with tanks with their own strong tanks. IF BK doc's strongest tank was PIV H, then I would say "yes, it is unfair that Storms cannot crawl with schreck while other units with crawl can use AT weapons" but at the moment the doctrine has enough reliable AT capacity to deal with enemy armor. So I don't give a single cunt suck about the weight of Schrecks and PIATs and zookas in reality. Storms cannot crawl with schrecks because they don't need it. They have tanks that can take care of enemy tanks and Schreck for Storms is there so they can finish off some vehicle that their tank damaged but got destroyed first or to defend them selves from some pesky vehicles in case some is after them. Infiltration rangers and Marine commandos can use crawl with AT weapons because their strongest tanks are shermans which can be deadly (especially in the case of Firefly) but are also way more fragile and so some additional AT capacity is needed from infantry. Yes, they have Airstrikes and Arty but both of these can be avoided, while once the game rolls a "hit" on Schreck, it doesn't matter where you move your tank, it will hit anyway.
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Re: New unit?

Postby Tiger1996 » 14 Jun 2017, 15:30

Guys, I am really getting sick of this...yes, obviously if we don't do what Tiger wants, we are biased towards allies and systematically try to nerf axis to oblivion...

Uh, come on.. please don't take it this way.
I didn't say you are biased or whatever... I was responding Hawks, even though i didn't mean to say that he is biased either. I only meant that the arguments provided against allowing the Shreck to be no longer disabling the crawl ability is a little biased themselves, and actually make no sense.

But of course you are not biased to Allies, you even added Pz3 and SturmTiger for Axis not long ago. And i would be very wrong if i would say that u r biased to any side, as you were never biased to Axis either.

And I wouldn't ever dare to say that u don't want to do what i want or what i am asking either.. because this is simply not true. As it's just a fact that you have definitely listened to a lot of what i have suggested in the past... And of course not to me only, but actually to everyone else and the rest of the community too.


However, i don't understand why u come up with this whole post about Storms or Blitz doc. No one here said that Storms are weak or whatever...
The whole thing is much more simple than this.
Let me tell u something, did u know that Storms can actually crawl with the Shreck? Yup.
This can happen when u activate the crawl ability, then u keep crawling until at the same time u pick a Shreck from the ground or upgrade it! This way, they will have a Shreck while crawling. But of course, once they stand up.. they won't be able to crawl with it again... So why not just allow it from the beginning?

I mean.. really, why is it really made this way? You say it's because they don't need it. Well, but absolutely nothing bad would happen if they are able to crawl with the Shreck too! Don't u think?? Or would it break balance??? Will they become OP? Would it be unfair for Allies??? Of course not. Because the new Marine Commandos can do it too.

So, even if they don't need it.. it's more a question of "just why not?" I wonder.. is it not possible to code for example? I really wonder.
But if u still want to keep it the way it is.. then just go ahead and do not bother at all... No one can stop u. And i am not mad about it either, even though i still don't see a reason why it is made this way anymore.

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Re: New unit?

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 14 Jun 2017, 15:58

Tiger, its getting boring now, we decide Schreks will stay like that for the reason we think are very important for the balance and the gameplay, you have the right to not agree, but Bk team will always have the last word here, receiving new good ideas is very fine and like you saw we implemented quite a lot of them coming from the community suggestions, but this schreck business is closed now, Mark wrote wall pages trying to explain why we will not do that, but as usual you need to have the last word and always over bet on what we are trying to tell you calmly, now its enough, Storms will not get the Schreck crawling ability and its final.

Locked.
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Re: New unit?

Postby MarKr » 14 Jun 2017, 16:16

Tiger1996 wrote:However, i don't understand why u come up with this whole post about Storms or Blitz doc. No one here said that Storms are weak or whatever...
Because your whole argumentation is "it is unfair that Storms cannot crawl" it might look unfair when you compare Storms as a simgle unit vs Infilt.reangers/Marine commandos as a unit. I gave you the reason why we don't want them to crawl with Schrecks:
MarKr wrote:If we take a look not only at Storms and their crawl with Schreck but on the whole doctrine, BK doc has very good infantry and the doc can deal with tanks with their own strong tanks. IF BK doc's strongest tank was PIV H, then I would say "yes, it is unfair that Storms cannot crawl with schreck while other units with crawl can use AT weapons" but at the moment the doctrine has enough reliable AT capacity to deal with enemy armor. So I don't give a single cunt suck about the weight of Schrecks and PIATs and zookas in reality. Storms cannot crawl with schrecks because they don't need it. They have tanks that can take care of enemy tanks and Schreck for Storms is there so they can finish off some vehicle that their tank damaged but got destroyed first or to defend them selves from some pesky vehicles in case some is after them. Infiltration rangers and Marine commandos can use crawl with AT weapons because their strongest tanks are shermans which can be deadly (especially in the case of Firefly) but are also way more fragile and so some additional AT capacity is needed from infantry. Yes, they have Airstrikes and Arty but both of these can be avoided, while once the game rolls a "hit" on Schreck, it doesn't matter where you move your tank, it will hit anyway.

Tiger1996 wrote:Let me tell u something, did u know that Storms can actually crawl with the Shreck? Yup.
This can happen when u activate the crawl ability, then u keep crawling until at the same time u pick a Shreck from the ground or upgrade it! This way, they will have a Shreck while crawling. But of course, once they stand up.. they won't be able to crawl with it again...
Yes, I know this.
Tiger1996 wrote:So why not just allow it from the beginning?
Because:
MarKr wrote:If we take a look not only at Storms and their crawl with Schreck but on the whole doctrine, BK doc has very good infantry and the doc can deal with tanks with their own strong tanks. IF BK doc's strongest tank was PIV H, then I would say "yes, it is unfair that Storms cannot crawl with schreck while other units with crawl can use AT weapons" but at the moment the doctrine has enough reliable AT capacity to deal with enemy armor. So I don't give a single cunt suck about the weight of Schrecks and PIATs and zookas in reality. Storms cannot crawl with schrecks because they don't need it. They have tanks that can take care of enemy tanks and Schreck for Storms is there so they can finish off some vehicle that their tank damaged but got destroyed first or to defend them selves from some pesky vehicles in case some is after them. Infiltration rangers and Marine commandos can use crawl with AT weapons because their strongest tanks are shermans which can be deadly (especially in the case of Firefly) but are also way more fragile and so some additional AT capacity is needed from infantry. Yes, they have Airstrikes and Arty but both of these can be avoided, while once the game rolls a "hit" on Schreck, it doesn't matter where you move your tank, it will hit anyway.

Tiger1996 wrote:I mean.. really, why is it really made this way?
Because:
MarKr wrote:If we take a look not only at Storms and their crawl with Schreck but on the whole doctrine, BK doc has very good infantry and the doc can deal with tanks with their own strong tanks. IF BK doc's strongest tank was PIV H, then I would say "yes, it is unfair that Storms cannot crawl with schreck while other units with crawl can use AT weapons" but at the moment the doctrine has enough reliable AT capacity to deal with enemy armor. So I don't give a single cunt suck about the weight of Schrecks and PIATs and zookas in reality. Storms cannot crawl with schrecks because they don't need it. They have tanks that can take care of enemy tanks and Schreck for Storms is there so they can finish off some vehicle that their tank damaged but got destroyed first or to defend them selves from some pesky vehicles in case some is after them. Infiltration rangers and Marine commandos can use crawl with AT weapons because their strongest tanks are shermans which can be deadly (especially in the case of Firefly) but are also way more fragile and so some additional AT capacity is needed from infantry. Yes, they have Airstrikes and Arty but both of these can be avoided, while once the game rolls a "hit" on Schreck, it doesn't matter where you move your tank, it will hit anyway.

Tiger1996 wrote:You say it's because they don't need it. Well, but absolutely nothing bad would happen if they are able to crawl with the Shreck too! Don't u think??
Maybe nothing bad would happen, but also nothing bad will happen if they stay as they are...also:
MarKr wrote:If we take a look not only at Storms and their crawl with Schreck but on the whole doctrine, BK doc has very good infantry and the doc can deal with tanks with their own strong tanks. IF BK doc's strongest tank was PIV H, then I would say "yes, it is unfair that Storms cannot crawl with schreck while other units with crawl can use AT weapons" but at the moment the doctrine has enough reliable AT capacity to deal with enemy armor. So I don't give a single cunt suck about the weight of Schrecks and PIATs and zookas in reality. Storms cannot crawl with schrecks because they don't need it. They have tanks that can take care of enemy tanks and Schreck for Storms is there so they can finish off some vehicle that their tank damaged but got destroyed first or to defend them selves from some pesky vehicles in case some is after them. Infiltration rangers and Marine commandos can use crawl with AT weapons because their strongest tanks are shermans which can be deadly (especially in the case of Firefly) but are also way more fragile and so some additional AT capacity is needed from infantry. Yes, they have Airstrikes and Arty but both of these can be avoided, while once the game rolls a "hit" on Schreck, it doesn't matter where you move your tank, it will hit anyway.

Tiger1996 wrote:Or would it break balance??? Will they become OP?
I think it might.
Tiger1996 wrote:Would it be unfair for Allies??? Of course not. Because the new Marine Commandos can do it too.
Yes, new commandos can do it because:
MarKr wrote:If we take a look not only at Storms and their crawl with Schreck but on the whole doctrine, BK doc has very good infantry and the doc can deal with tanks with their own strong tanks. IF BK doc's strongest tank was PIV H, then I would say "yes, it is unfair that Storms cannot crawl with schreck while other units with crawl can use AT weapons" but at the moment the doctrine has enough reliable AT capacity to deal with enemy armor. So I don't give a single cunt suck about the weight of Schrecks and PIATs and zookas in reality. Storms cannot crawl with schrecks because they don't need it. They have tanks that can take care of enemy tanks and Schreck for Storms is there so they can finish off some vehicle that their tank damaged but got destroyed first or to defend them selves from some pesky vehicles in case some is after them. Infiltration rangers and Marine commandos can use crawl with AT weapons because their strongest tanks are shermans which can be deadly (especially in the case of Firefly) but are also way more fragile and so some additional AT capacity is needed from infantry. Yes, they have Airstrikes and Arty but both of these can be avoided, while once the game rolls a "hit" on Schreck, it doesn't matter where you move your tank, it will hit anyway.

Tiger1996 wrote:So, even if they don't need it.. it's more a question of "just why not?"
Well, I witheld this information up till now, so you might be shocked but it is because:
MarKr wrote:If we take a look not only at Storms and their crawl with Schreck but on the whole doctrine, BK doc has very good infantry and the doc can deal with tanks with their own strong tanks. IF BK doc's strongest tank was PIV H, then I would say "yes, it is unfair that Storms cannot crawl with schreck while other units with crawl can use AT weapons" but at the moment the doctrine has enough reliable AT capacity to deal with enemy armor. So I don't give a single cunt suck about the weight of Schrecks and PIATs and zookas in reality. Storms cannot crawl with schrecks because they don't need it. They have tanks that can take care of enemy tanks and Schreck for Storms is there so they can finish off some vehicle that their tank damaged but got destroyed first or to defend them selves from some pesky vehicles in case some is after them. Infiltration rangers and Marine commandos can use crawl with AT weapons because their strongest tanks are shermans which can be deadly (especially in the case of Firefly) but are also way more fragile and so some additional AT capacity is needed from infantry. Yes, they have Airstrikes and Arty but both of these can be avoided, while once the game rolls a "hit" on Schreck, it doesn't matter where you move your tank, it will hit anyway.

Tiger1996 wrote:I wonder.. is it not possible to code for example? I really wonder.
No, it is easy to code it, but we want to keep it because:
MarKr wrote:If we take a look not only at Storms and their crawl with Schreck but on the whole doctrine, BK doc has very good infantry and the doc can deal with tanks with their own strong tanks. IF BK doc's strongest tank was PIV H, then I would say "yes, it is unfair that Storms cannot crawl with schreck while other units with crawl can use AT weapons" but at the moment the doctrine has enough reliable AT capacity to deal with enemy armor. So I don't give a single cunt suck about the weight of Schrecks and PIATs and zookas in reality. Storms cannot crawl with schrecks because they don't need it. They have tanks that can take care of enemy tanks and Schreck for Storms is there so they can finish off some vehicle that their tank damaged but got destroyed first or to defend them selves from some pesky vehicles in case some is after them. Infiltration rangers and Marine commandos can use crawl with AT weapons because their strongest tanks are shermans which can be deadly (especially in the case of Firefly) but are also way more fragile and so some additional AT capacity is needed from infantry. Yes, they have Airstrikes and Arty but both of these can be avoided, while once the game rolls a "hit" on Schreck, it doesn't matter where you move your tank, it will hit anyway.

Tiger1996 wrote:But if u still want to keep it the way it is.. then just go ahead and do not bother at all... No one can stop u. And i am not mad about it either, even though i still don't see a reason why it is made this way anymore.
I am sorry I was unable to explain the reason for this often enough. But it is nice that you are not mad about it.
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